Author Topic: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style  (Read 4512 times)

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Offline loowaters

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Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« on: November 13, 2009, 09:48:25 PM »
I've really struggled with the Giordano's, or more accurately, stuffed crust pizza.  First, I was indifferent to Giordano's as it was not my favorite pie at all, in fact, I thought Edwardo's did a better stuffed crust than Giordano's, I liked Ed's sauce better.  Second, when I did try out a recipe over a year ago I really didn't like what I had done with the crust so I never took pics and never detailed my results...mostly out of embarrassment for the looks of the finished product.  I know, that's a bad reason not to post pics.  What has given me a drive to figure this one out is, after reading foodblooger's (foodblogger, he of the Gino's clone fame and doesn't come around much anymore) thoughts, the Wig & Pen in Iowa City's stuffed pie.  Foodblogger thinks it's the best pizza outside Chicago.  I tried it and immediately recognized, for my tastes, it's the best stuffed pizza I've ever had.  This is a pie I'd like to work on so back to tackling the stuffed crust Chicago style pizza.

A couple things before explaining what I did with this latest effort.  A thread just after the first of this year discussing the Malnati's/Bobby Flay "Throwdown" took on the subject of browning and oven spring. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7594.msg65148.html#msg65148 These pies don't get too dark, don't blow up, yet are still very flavorful.  By these pies, I mean Malnati's, Giordano's, Gino's East, Edwardo's, even Wig & Pen, I don't remember Nancy's, it's been about a thousand years since I was there.  There's little browning of the pie yet the sugars from the tomato sauce can blacken from the high heat, a notable aspect of Gino's East pies.  Why wouldn't the crust get darker after such a long cooking time?  Peter brought up a very interesting thought that I kinda dismissed at the time but now I'm beginning to think this may be the reason for both the reduced browning and limited oven spring.  Exhausting the sugar supply.  High amounts of yeast will gobble up all sugars to survive but when those are depleted what happens?  You'll get a crust that looks just like it did before cooking holding the same form without oven spring to "smooth out" the imperfections of pressing out or laying the dough into the pan.  It will give you a cooked, crumbly, crumb.  Like Giordano's edge retaining that chiseled look.  More oven spring would change the look of that edge.  Oven spring can also be reduced by increasing the oil content of the dough, as Peter tested, but it won't reduce the browning.  That has to be done by a depletion of sugar.  Is a total depletion of sugar possible?  Will the yeast continue to covert starches for it's food?  Peter?  This also would take some serious timing, wouldn't it?  Hitting a point when the sugar is all gone but before the dough goes bad.  I haven't "ruined" a dough by starving the yeast but I'm going to assume it won't be good for long after the yeast begins it's "death".  Is the dough being used at pizza places that have a light colored crust old dough?  Not likely.  Gino's is the only one of these places that we know uses sugar in their dough formulation as it's in their ingredients listing.  No, Giordano's does not, per Peter's research into their ingredient listings and nutritional info.  All that being said, I'll probably try an increased yeast experiment with my next effort to see what happens.

Here's the formulation that I used for a 12" pie.  I used corn oil instead of vegable oil as I had none on hand.  This had an oil increase even though an earlier discussion had us reducing the amount of oil in the dough. That info begins here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg72220.html#msg72220  I didn't like the results with the reduced oil %. 

KA AP Flour         100%          501g
Water                  50             251
Corn Oil                18              91
Salt                       1               5
IDY                      .8                4


Total dough weight = 852g  (TF = .16)
Used for bottom layer = 564
Used for top layer = 282
Amount leftover after trimming (most coming from the top layer) = 125g

All dry ingredients were combined in a bowl and the water and oils combined in my KA mixer bowl.  The dry was added by big, heaping tablespoon after big, heaping tablespoon until all was in then I upped the speed to 3 (I know there's no 3 setting but you can find a speed between 2 and 4) for four minutes.  That knead time might have been a little long and next time I'll lower that to probably two and a half or three minutes.  Unfortunately, I have the "C" dough hook on my Artisan mixer which doesn't do a great job of kneading, but this doughball, whether it was size, hydration, oil content, or a combination of all of them, kneaded quite well. 

The dough ball was separated into the two weights listed above, balled, placed in bowls with lids (not sealed) and into the fridge for a 24 hour cold ferment.

I pulled the dough from the fridge to bring to room temp and actually had it out only about a half hour before working with it.  Coated each dough ball with bench flour.  I rolled out the larger dough ball for the bottom layer and layed that into a 12" pan with it's bottom greased with butter.  I rolled the top layer out as thin as possible without tearing it, about 14-15".  In went 3/4 lb. of shredded Stella low-moisture part-skim mozzarella (the amount I use for regular deep dish pies) and pepperoni.  Top layer goes on and gets four vents torn into it then tucked down into the corners and then trimmed.  Topped with sauce.  The sauce was a 35 oz. can of Cento Italian whole tomatoes, cores and seeds removed, then hand crushed and drained then returned to it's puree.  This turned out to be the perfect amount for this size pie.  The sauce was seasoned with about a 1/2 t sugar, 1 1/2 t salt, 1 t ground black pepper, and 3/4 t basil.

Oven 500* for 20 minutes.

Topped with parm and oregano when it came out of the oven.

My assessment:  Great taste, needed more cheese (compared to most stuffed pies I've had), a little breadier than I would've liked and that's why I'll reduce the knead next time around.  Overall really good but needs to get better to truly emulate what I'm trying to clone. 




« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 09:53:30 PM by loowaters »
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Offline Aldo

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2009, 12:29:41 AM »
Nice crust color!  Can you describe how the crust tasted compared to what you were aiming for?  It sure looks good!

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2009, 09:50:37 AM »
Loo,

The subject of sugar depletion has long intrigued me. As a result, I tend to play close attention to the matter, and what different experts say about it.

Early on, Marco (pizzanapoletana) told me that I and other members of the forum paid too much attention to sugar depletion. He said, at item number 3) in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1055.msg9357/topicseen.html#msg9357, that it would perhaps take better than 5% yeast (commercial yeast) to run out of sugar. As an example of how difficult it is to exhaust sugar, he suggested that one conduct a test in which a dough is allowed to ferment for 48 hours at room temperature, with three punch downs, the last after 44 hours, and see if the dough would rise again after all that (Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3057.msg25947/topicseen.html#msg25947). I believe that Marco was talking about a naturally leavened dough, rather than a commercially leavened one, but I was able to conduct a similar test with a 24-hour room-temperature dough that was commercially leavened and the dough still had enough sugar left to support a further rise.

Based on the above, I was willing to accept that it was unlikely that there would be a complete sugar depletion, at least without the yeast dying out because of starvation (and eating its own dead cells until finally expiring). However, it seemed to me you could still have residual sugar in the dough and yet not get good crust coloration. I tested this hypothesis when I experimented with preferments, especially poolish. A poolish by definition has a hydration of 100%, which means that it will have a higher degree of biological activity and ferment faster than a preferment with much lower hydration (like a biga or prefermented old dough). If a lot of yeast is used in the poolish, or if the water used in the poolish is warm, or the prefermentation temperature (usually room temperature) is high, I discovered that the activity in the poolish will be so high and so fast that it was indeed possible for the yeast to consume so much sugar as to leave too little to produce good crust coloration. You would have to add some form of sweetener, like honey or sugar or barley malt syrup, or add diastatic barley malt (for increased enzyme performance) to the final mix to make up for the reduced sugar (simple sugars) levels. Otherwise, the finished crust was likely to be pale in color or, as Professor Calvel describes this condition in his book The Taste of Bread (at page 57), "suffer from limited Maillard and caramelization reactions". In his book, Professor Calvel also points out that low residual sugar levels, especially when coupled with a below-average pH (which is related to the type of preferment--natural or using commercial yeast--and duration of fermentation), will translate into a "deficiency of oven spring". For those who are interested in the implications of all of this, and have access to Professor Calvel's book, see "The Effects of Changes in pH and Residual Sugar Levels" at pages 56-57. But the bottom line is that low residual sugar levels, whether caused by long fermentation times or even overfermentation or improper or inadequate sugar management, will usually translate into poor crust coloration.

Tom Lehmann often discusses the matter of sugar in pizza doughs and what steps one might take to insure that there is enough sugar in the dough, either natural or added, to achieve the desired degree of crust coloration over the useful window of the dough. As an example, see Tom's PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26890#26890. If Tom is correct, then what he says lends support to the notion of sugar depletion and the management of sugar in relation to finished crust coloration.

Peter


Offline Mazz

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2009, 04:58:23 PM »
Loo - Thanks for this post.  Now that Fall is here and Winter is just around the corner, I'm gearing up for another Pizza season in our house.  Your post has inspired me to give stuffed pizza a try.  I live about 45 minutes from Iowa City.  My son graduated from the U of I, so I think we'll check out Wig and Pen and try their stuffed pizza. - Mazz

Offline loowaters

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2009, 07:47:42 AM »
Peter, thanks for jumping in on this and thanks for the links to previous discussions on the subject even as they relate to other styles of pizza.  From reading this site for years, I know a couple things about Marco:  don't argue with him about ovens and he knows dough management.  I'll trust his thought, and Tom Lehmann's, on the sugar depletion.

The oven spring issue is still intriguing as both of us thought that a reduction in oil from what others had been using was in order but to limit the oven spring, as you've tested, would require an increase in oil.  Maybe high oil and long knead times yield the results we're looking for.  I mentioned that I went four minutes of knead on this last experiment and had a really nice, workable dough.  The dough was actually quite smooth and, I guess, normal looking and not the patchy blob of brain matter appearing dough that I get with the short knead of my Malnati's dough.  Perhaps, against what I suggested earlier, rather than reduce my knead time I could increase the oil by about two percent and leave the knead time alone. 

I'll probably make up some dough today for use tomorrow and I'll post results.  I enjoy a new experiment.

Loo
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Offline loowaters

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2009, 08:30:52 AM »
Only change for this was an increase in oil by 2% couple with an equal reduction in water.  BTW, Tom Lehmann discusses this exact subject of oil replacing water in this month's Pizza Today.  Good results with less ovenspring and less breadiness but I think a reduction in knead time will benefit the "crunch" factor of the crust.

Flour   100%      503g
Water   48%      241g
Corn Oil   20%      101g
Salt   1.00%      5g
IDY   1.00%      5g

Total dough wt = 855g (TF = .16)
Bottom wt = 570g
Top wt = 285g
Leftover trimmed wt = ? (I still have the dough, I'll weigh it today)

Next effort will be a reduced knead and possibly an oven temp increase to 550* with stone on lowest rack position.
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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2009, 09:22:37 AM »
Awesome, Loo!  I'm drooling over my keyboard ...  :P
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Offline BTB

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2009, 11:45:12 AM »
Loo, I was not previously a big Giordano's fan but have come to be a convert of sorts after experiencing some of their stuffed pizzas in recent times.  It's been extremely good and I remember Edwardo's as well being good, too.  I have never attempted to make a stuffed pizza, however, as I've concentrated on other deep dish and thin crust styles.  While not of much help here, I do have an observation that I just would like to throw in here regarding crust coloring.
 
In watching that Malnati's Throwdown TV episode and receiving their postal mailings and email advertisements from Malnati's and their "Taste of Chicago" Enterprise, I am bewildered to explain the seeming paradox regarding the crust coloring question.  In the many, many times that I've eaten at nearly all Malnati's restaurants, I have experienced things totally different on crust coloring than seen on that show and what is often pictured in advertisements and elsewhere.  It is a puzzle of sorts that I'm unable to explain.  I don't know why that is the case, but just concluded -- rightfully or wrongly -- that they did that because they think it looks better for advertising or some other purpose.  It just looks nicer in photographs maybe.  But in the many times that I've eaten pizzas at almost all Malnati's restaurants over the years, I have rarely (underscore rarely) had a pizza with a crust look as light colored as was shown on that show and in other Malnati's sponsored pictures and photographs. 
 
The following photo is from Malnati's "Taste of Chicago" website and shows a deep dish pizza with the light colored crust. But like I said, I have rarely seen such a light colored crust in reality in the hundreds of times I've been to their restaurants.  See some of my pictures of their pizza crust when I visited their original restaurant just this past summer are at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8921.msg77312.html#msg77312.  It's not as light colored as in their advertisements.  Same goes for Due's and Giordano's shown in that thread there also.  I do seem to remember Gino's East and Edwardo's as being a lighter golden color, more so than the others, but have rarely seen Malnati's or Giordano's crust look so light colored.  This probably doesn't help at all with the issue at hand, but I thought I would just express my observations regarding crust coloring here FWIW. 
               --BTB
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 11:50:27 AM by BTB »

Offline BTB

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2009, 11:48:30 AM »
And these pictures show the crust color of a Giordano's pizza that I brought home from their Tampa restaurant, which is not as light colored. I have others from Malnati's, too, showing a typical darker crust and if I can locate them, I'll share them here also.  BTW, your pizza still looked very good.  My mouth is watering for a good stuffed pizza again.                                                                              --BTB
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 11:57:22 AM by BTB »

Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2009, 02:26:35 PM »
Loo, I have nothing to say but that once again your pizzas look awesome!!  i am so hungry now!  you are an amazing pizza maker!


Offline loowaters

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2009, 08:35:22 PM »
Thanks Mad Ernie (my 2 1/2 yr. old both loves and is terrified by your avatar) and mrmojo for the kind words.  Greatly appreciated.  These pies both came out really well.

BTB, thanks for your thoughts on this.  Those pics, as well as a couple others, I've referenced many times, so, thanks for posting them again in this thread.  I suppose reading the OP in this thread it may seem I was dwelling on crust color but really the more intriguing characteristic is the lack of oven spring that can create a huge blown up crust ring.  Your Giordano's pics show a larger outer crust than I'm accustomed to seeing but not too large.  That also is a smaller pie, is it not? 

It's possible I'm dwelling too much on something that I may have seen just once.  I do not really believe that there's as much oil in Giordano's dough as I used in this last effort but I'm trying to limit oven spring and oil is the only way I know how to do this.  I did refer to Tom Lehmann's article on oil in dough in this month's Pizza Today where he says to reduce your water by the same percentage you've increased your oil.  I've tried in the past to keep the dough as wet as I managably can but perhaps that's not the way to go.  My original Malnati's dough I think is right on because of it's lower hydration at 45%.  Is it possible that this is a lower hydration dough and not so much a really high fat dough?  Say water at 40% and oil at 13-15%?  It's not like that liquid combination would make something too stiff to work with.  We know what hydration can do for creating "voids" and air pockets in the dough just by reading one post in the Neapolitan forum.  Those guys are shooting for ridiculous hydrations, and rightly so.  Lowering the hydration will create a more flaky dough.  How much water is in a pie crust?

Loo
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Offline BTB

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2009, 08:11:34 AM »
Loo, yes, that was a small size pie so a larger one does look a little different in terms of the crust's thickness.  Below is a picture of the medium sized one we had at the restaurant last spring.  I have always found Giordano's crust to be somewhat dry -- drier that is in comparison to Malnati's and other deep dish styles in both lower hydration and a lower proportion of oil is what I speculate.   You can get a rough guess by looking closely at the dough of this medium pie being prepared in the attached picture.  Dry but not too dry as I don't think they would be as able to handle it as well if it were too dry.  Good luck with your efforts here.      --BTB

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2009, 10:38:26 AM »
I think you have to be very careful when relying on "official" photos that pizza operators use at their websites. When I was doing all of my experiments with the Papa John's clone pizzas, I couldn't "nail" the appearance of the pizzas shown at the PJ website. Moreover, the workers at the PJ store I frequent couldn't do it either.

As an example of how deceptive and misleading the photos at pizza operators' websites can be, note the appearance of the Applepie pizza shown at http://www.papajohns.com/menu/side_applepie.shtm. Then take a look at the photo of an actual Applepie pizza that I bought from Papa John's, at Reply 127 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg80932.html#msg80932. When I made my clone of the Applepie pizza, I used the photo of the Applepie pizza at the PJ website. The best I could do when I made my clones of that pizza is shown at Reply 107 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg80757.html#msg80757 and a slightly different version at Reply 131 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg80989.html#msg80989. So, which version does one try to replicate--a pizza shown in an official photo or one actually made in one of the company's stores? In my case, I went with the "prettier" version but in the case of the Giordano's pizza, I would go with one of their pizzas made in one of their stores or as shown in one of the Giordano's videos.

Peter

Offline waynesize

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2010, 01:17:29 PM »
Loo, did you ever try the reduced knead and 550 temp mentioned in reply #5?  Want to try this one, want all the info I can get before I do!

Wayne

Offline loowaters

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2010, 03:26:10 PM »
Yes, I did and the results were good but I won't do the higher temp again.  I don't believe that the pizza reached the internal temp that I would need to completely cook sausage before the crust was getting dark to the point that it had to come out of the oven.  The pizza I made at the 550* temp was pepperoni only so I didn't have any problem with getting sick.  Of course, precooking sausage will eliminate any risk but I prefer the taste of my sausage raw on the pie at the start of the bake and cook along with the pizza.

The reduced knead time didn't do a lot for the crust from what I remember. 

Loo
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Offline waynesize

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2010, 08:28:19 PM »
Thanks Loo, I will try with the instructions you posted and see how it works out.

Wayne

Offline waynesize

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2010, 09:02:15 PM »
Loo, I'm "stuffed".  The pizza turned out very good.  I put in a layer of sliced Provolone and sliced Mozzarella.  Then a layer of uncooked Italian sausage.  Then some pepperoni.  Then some shredded Provolone/Mozz mixture.  Top crust.  Sauce.  Baked at 500 for about 30 minutes on stone located on bottom rack. Topped with a little Parm and oregano.  Darn good.  Very filling, I ate less than a quarter of this 12 inch pie.  Thanks for the recipe and procedures.  I'll use this again.

Offline loowaters

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2010, 09:16:44 PM »
Most excellent!
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Offline waynesize

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2010, 09:28:24 PM »
Here are some pics.

Offline waynesize

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Re: Loo stuffs...Giordano's style
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2010, 09:30:15 PM »
And the rest of the pics.


 

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