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[davefr]

Hi,
I'm a newbie that just stumbled onto the forum.  My wife and I are trying to make good NY style pizzas at home.  (She gets to do the toppings and sauce and I get to do the crust).

Our third attempt was Varasano's recipe followed precisely.  What I ended up with was an extremely sticky dough.  No amount of bench flour/corn meal would prevent it from sticking to the countertop or peel. (in his website he admits that it's a fairly wet dough).  The end result was pretty good pizza though. (we eat our screwups!)

I wan't to try attempt #4 this weekend. Can anyone recommend another NY style dough recipe more geared for a home kitchen?  (ie 500 degree oven and newbie at tossing/stretching)

I noticed some recipes use sugar and oil?  Is that good or bad for a home kitchen situation?  (Varasano seems to suggest only 4 dough ingrediants).

I bought a no stick pastry mat so that might help with my countertops (Corian) that don't seem to allow bench flour to spread evenly over them.

I ordered some Italian yeast starter but I think I want to get better results from store bought dry yeast packets first.

TIA

[Pete-zza]

davefr,

The thread that I normally recommend to newbies interested in making a basic NY style pizza is the one at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html. Many members start with some version of the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe given in Reply 8 of that thread and, once they feel comfortable with it, modify it or move on to another NY style (or even an entirely different type).

The original/classic NY style pizzas made in NYC did not use either sugar or oil in the doughs, and there are some people who like that simplicity and do not use either in their doughs. The basic Lehmann NY style dough calls for 1% oil, and sugar is optional (usually for a dough that is to held in the refrigerator for more than a few days). However, many members use both oil and sugar in their doughs in varying amounts based on personal preference. However, one shouldn't use too much sugar if the pizza is to be baked on a pizza stone. Otherwise, the bottom of the crust can brown too quickly or even burn before the rest of the pizza is done.

Peter

[davefr]

Thanks Peter,
I'm definately going to try the Lehmann recipe next.

I see that his method doesn't include a autolyse phase that Varasano seems to advocate.  Would a variation to include this phase help or is it "much ado about nothing"?

If at some point I want to try starter yeast instead of dry packet yeast should I just scale back the flour and water in the recipe by the equivalent amount in the starter? Varasano also advocates starter yeast over instant yeast for flavor.  Does starter yeast over dry yeast make a big difference for a home pizza given all the other limitations we face like oven setups?

 

[Pete-zza]

davefr,

The Lehmann NY style dough formulation was originally developed for use by professional pizza operators and they almost never use autolyse in their businesses. However, having done just about everything you can do to the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, including modifying it to incorporate autolyse and to use natural starters/preferments, I can tell you that both are possible. You will see a broad range of versions and variations of the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193.html#msg13193. There are also several other versions scattered throughout several other threads on the forum. Somehow, I seem to keep finding new experiments to conduct using the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation.

I normally do not advise newbies to jump too quickly to using natural starters/preferments, but rather first learn the basics of dough making. The Lehmann NY style dough formulation is one of the best formulations to use for that purpose, in my opinion. I personally am not as fond of autolyse for my doughs as other members but I did like it when I experimented with dough formulations that were leavened with natural yeast. I found autolyse to produce a crumb that was too breadlike for my taste, as I noted at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62715/topicseen.html#msg62715. But, that is just my personal opinion and I don't want to discourage you from using autolyse. Many others use it a core part of their dough making and like it, so you may also.

On the matter of how to account for natural starters/preferments in a basic dough formulation, another member and I developed a preferment dough calculating tool for that purpose. It can be seen at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. I wouldn't worry too much about that tool at this point. If you ever get to the point of using a natural starter/preferment, that would be the time to study the tool more intensely.

I personally think that natural starters/preferments produce the best crust flavors and textures. But the processes take a long time to master, and you have to take a committed approach.

Peter

[davefr]

Peter,
I read thread 8 of your Lehmann recipe.

Does salt matter? (table salt, sea salt, kosher salt, etc)  What about oil?  (is  EVO oil OK?)

Thanks again!

[Pete-zza]

davefr,

The basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation was developed for professional pizza operators so I am pretty certain that Tom Lehmann had ordinary table salt in mind. But, as Tom Lehmann noted in his Think Tank post at http://www.pmq.com/tt/viewtopic.php?p=7846#7846, it doesn't really matter which form of salt is used in the dough. For most people, the type of salt is a matter of personal preference. Most pizza operators use ordinary table salt because it costs the least. Some people, usually home pizza makers but occasionally an artisan pizza operator, will use sea salt because of its clean taste (there are no additives or chemicals) and because it has more minerals that might be used as nutrients for the yeast. Most authentic Neapolitan style dough formulations also call for using sea salt. All of the dough calculating tools, including the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html (the tool I personally use the most), give uses the option to select whichever form of salt they would like to use, including the two most popular brands of Kosher salt found in the U.S.

With respect to the oil, most pizza operators use a form of vegetable oil, such as soybean oil, most likely because it is the least expensive of the oils. However, there are a few operators who use extra virgin olive oil. Some use olive oil blends including olive oil and vegetable oil or canola oil. Again, it is a matter of personal preference and cost. Tom Lehmann's advice to pizza operators tends to favor the cost side of the equation, as you will note from his PMQTT post at http://www.pmq.com/tt/viewtopic.php?p=13122#13122. But in a home environment, we can emphasize quality over price. I personally use a good quality olive oil for the NY style.

Peter

[davefr]

Peter,
I tried the above Lehmann recipe this past weekend.  So far it's my best pizza yet!!

I followed the recipe precisely by weighing all ingrediants.  The dough was in the fridge for about 30 hrs and then I let it come to room temp for about 3-4 hrs.

I did notice that the skin became very elastic after I pushed it down but before I could stretch it out to it's final shape.

I let the gluttens rest for about 15 minutes and after that it stretched out just fine.

Gemignani's video shows him going from ball to skin without the Glutten rest.

How can I eliminate this elasticity so a glutten rest isn't needed?  What factors make a skin elastic?
 

[Pete-zza]

davefr,

I'm glad that you liked the results using the Lehmann NY style dough.

Once you take the dough out of the refrigerator, it is best not to re-ball, re-knead or otherwise re-work it before using it. That will only mess up the gluten network and make the dough overly elastic. I went back to see the beginning of the Gemignani video and it only shows the dough ball just before Tony shapes it into a skin. Pizza operators like Tony usually let the dough balls warm up for a while at room temperature before opening them up to form skins. The warm-up step is not shown in the video but I am quite certain that he uses such a warm-up step. There are some pizza doughs that are usable directly out of the refrigerator or cooler, but that is not the norm.

There are many possible causes of elasticity. This subject was recently addressed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9667.0.html.

BTW, there is no need to weigh the ingredients used in small quantities, such as the yeast, salt and oil. The volume measurements are good enough.

Peter

[Trogdor33]

davefr,

Regarding the "autolyze" technique that Jeff Varasano uses, I make a Lehmann pie using a lot of the basic Lehmann recipe, but mostly the Varasano technique. I don't know that it would do it the way I do if I had a commercial mixer, but my KA was sounding ugly under the stress of kneading a 3lb batch of pizza dough. I have had really good results lately by mixing together all but 1/4 of the formula flour and the oil first, mix with the dough hook, once it has the consistency of a lumpy batter, knead with dough hook for 2 minutes, rest for 20 minutes, add the oil, knead with dough hook for 5 mins, gradually add the remaining flour until it's all incorporated, rest 20 minutes, divide and shape. The reason I like this method is because I only have to fight the mixer during the last couple minutes. I have also found that taking a spatula and applying downward pressure on the dough ball directly under the top disk on the dough hook makes it knead much easier.

I had the same reservations about the natural preferment that you do, but I wanted the flavor really bad. Red November turned me on to lactic acid powder as a hack to get the flavor without adopting and nurturing a starter. I have been adding lactic acid at 0.7% of flour weight (maybe a tsp per lb of dough) and it tastes great. I think I will eventually get a starter, but for now, this is much easier.

-Joe

[davefr]

davefr,

Regarding the "autolyze" technique that Jeff Varasano uses, I make a Lehmann pie using a lot of the basic Lehmann recipe, but mostly the Varasano technique. I don't know that it would do it the way I do if I had a commercial mixer, but my KA was sounding ugly under the stress of kneading a 3lb batch of pizza dough. I have had really good results lately by mixing together all but 1/4 of the formula flour and the oil first, mix with the dough hook, once it has the consistency of a lumpy batter, knead with dough hook for 2 minutes, rest for 20 minutes, add the oil, knead with dough hook for 5 mins, gradually add the remaining flour until it's all incorporated, rest 20 minutes, divide and shape. The reason I like this method is because I only have to fight the mixer during the last couple minutes. I have also found that taking a spatula and applying downward pressure on the dough ball directly under the top disk on the dough hook makes it knead much easier.

I had the same reservations about the natural preferment that you do, but I wanted the flavor really bad. Red November turned me on to lactic acid powder as a hack to get the flavor without adopting and nurturing a starter. I have been adding lactic acid at 0.7% of flour weight (maybe a tsp per lb of dough) and it tastes great. I think I will eventually get a starter, but for now, this is much easier.

-Joe

Joe,
Great minds think alike

Last night I tried the Lehmann recipe with the Varasano technique in preparing the dough.  Varasano seems so passionate about the wet dough kneading and autolyze process that I thought I'd combine the two methods.  Besides that, the KA mixer just seems to perform better up until the point that the final flour is added and it's just spinning around a ball of dough.

I also spent a couple minutes stretching and kneading by hand. (hope that didn't hurt it)

I'll know by the weekend how these latest pizzas turn out .

As a newbie I'd really like to understand some of the basics of what's happening when dough is being prepared.  (glutten development - what is it,  what does kneading do, elasticity vs. stretchability tradeoffs, how to modulate various characteristics via the prep.)

Is there a link that describes some of the basic chemistry of what's happening when dough is prepared??

 

[Trogdor33]

davefr,

I have found a solution to the "spinning dough" problem for that last minute or two. I take a spatula and put the blade of it underneath the circular part of the dough hook while pushing it toward the center. This forces the dough downward and keeps it from creeping up around where the dough hook is attached to the mixer. Every minute or so I will lift up the dough, scrape the unincorporated flour to loosen it up, turn the dough upside down and start kneading again. As a disclaimer, I don't suggest using my spatula technique since you could hurt yourself or even (gasp) your mixer.

-Joe

[Pete-zza]

As a newbie I'd really like to understand some of the basics of what's happening when dough is being prepared.  (glutten development - what is it,  what does kneading do, elasticity vs. stretchability tradeoffs, how to modulate various characteristics via the prep.)

Is there a link that describes some of the basic chemistry of what's happening when dough is prepared??

davefr,

The biochemistry of dough is very complicated. However, if you are up to reading something on the subject at a technical level, one of my favorite online sources is theartisan.net, at http://www.theartisan.net/. The applicable section to read is the Bread Basics section. This forum is also replete with discussions on matters like gluten development, elasticity/extensibility, fermentation, etc. The subject matter just isn't in one place. Another useful source for newbies is the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html. There are also many books on the subject but they tend to be very technical and also quite expensive.

Peter

[davefr]

Thanks again!!!

I just stumbled on to Chris Parachini's video.  He seems to combine Lehmann's recipe with Varasanos style.

http://how2heroes.com/videos/entrees/crispy-chewy-pizza-dough

Does this forum have any feedback on his approach to pizza??  His approach to sealing off dough balls is rather unique.

[Trogdor33]

That's actually the video I'd been working off before I got involved in this forum. His technique is a more primitive version of the Varasano method.  The important things Chris' lacks is the 5 minute wet knead after the first 20 minute rest period and the second 20 minute rest period before dividing the dough. I also wait to put my oil in until after the first rest period, that way it is incorporated during the 5 minute wet knead. A lady I work with makes cakes on the side and told me that when you add the oil to a dough or batter has an effect on the final texture of the dough. When I saw that the Lehmann recipe called for a late oil addition, I figured that was something that had to stay when I converted to wet knead.

-Joe

[Pete-zza]

When I saw that the Lehmann recipe called for a late oil addition, I figured that was something that had to stay when I converted to wet knead.

Joe,

The basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation is intended to be used by commercial pizza operators with commercial mixers and the like. Tom Lehmann argues that the hydration of the flour is better if the oil is added after the initial mix/knead. That appears to work well with commercial mixers. However, in a home environment, if the amount of oil is too much, I have found that in my mixer (KitchenAid with a C-hook), it is difficult to incorporate the oil into a dough that has already been kneaded fairly extensively. In fact, I usually have to help incorporate the oil into the dough by hand. For a typical 1% oil called for in the Lehmann recipe, that amount of oil poses no problem, even for my inefficient mixer, but once it gets to around 3%, I start to have problems. So, when I am making a dough that calls for a lot of oil, I generally add the oil to the water at the start. An advantage of doing this is that the oil is more uniformly distributed within the dough. Sometime, you might want to run your own test and see if you can tell a difference between the two ways of incorporating the oil into the dough.

Peter

[Trogdor33]

Peter,

I have never had a problem incorporating the oil since I put it in during the wet knead before the remaining portion of flour is added. With that said, I am second guessing my rationale for using this method. I talked to the lady at work that makes cakes again today and asked her why she adds oil last. She said it's because it keeps the eggs from binding to the oil. Since I am not using eggs, I suspect that it shouldn't make a difference. I will add oil to the water at the beginning for my next batch and see if there is any noticeable difference.

-Joe

[Pete-zza]

I have never had a problem incorporating the oil since I put it in during the wet knead before the remaining portion of flour is added.

Joe,

I have often done that myself, especially if I am hand kneading a dough. I have also done that in the mixer bowl, especially if I plan to use a fair amount of oil. I can't say that I have really noticed any major differences in a home setting.

Peter