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[milo357]

Can someone please clue me in to the secret of dough elasticity?  My dough, while getting better, is ALWAYS spring like, and a workout to spread out to shape.  The I turn on the tube, and see these pizza shows where the pizza guru is slinging dough in the air, 30 inches across, razor thin (never making a hole in it), and ZERO spring back.

Now, yes, I'm a semi newb, but I'd sure like some help on this one.  I made a decent (if not somewhat flat tasting) KASL based dough the other day that turned out thick but fortunately airy. 

Do I need to increase the amount of water?  I am around 50 - 53% right now.  Oh, and I am basically using the New York style recipe that can be found all over this site.

I cold ferment for 24 to 48 hours in the fridge.   Should I warm ferment for my goals?

Ah, goals.  A Cincinnati based Zino's (very old school restaurant), or LaRosa's, or Pizza Hut Hand tossed crust.  Yes, LaRosa and PH are different crust.

Sorry if I am rambling.  I am dead tired and got to the board a little late.

Many thanks for the help.

Milo

[shango]

Probably over mixed-try cutting down on the mixing time/speed.

[Essen1]

Milo,

Could you provide us with your entire recipe and perhaps your mixing technique?

Besides that, Tom Lehmann's NY-style dough calls for a hydration between 58%-65% as you can see here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_nystyle.php

You might want to increase that amount.

[s00da]

50-53% definitely needs to be upped. Such dry dough will also develop more gluten when kneaded than a wetter one.

This percentage will probably need to go up to 60% and as Marc said, it's better to post your recipe to get a full free evaluation/consultancy 

Saad

[pacoast]

A minor point, you are describing excessive elasticity. And you are looking for more extensibility.

Possible causes:
too low hydration
excessive protein
dough under-mixed
inadequate fermentation
dough too cold
excessive kneading immediately prior to stretching dough

As others have pointed out, it would help a lot if you told us more about how you are making your dough. Try something closer to 58 - 62% water and make sure that your dough has had enough time to warm up after taking it out of the fridge. Also try letting the dough rest for about three minutes between flattening the dough ball and stretching it. You should handle the dough gently i.e. not handle it roughly. Adding a little oil to a recipe might be a quick fix, but you should be able to make extensible dough without oil.

.

[ThunderStik]

To add to what Pacoast has said. It could also be a high salt content or it could be as simple as a mistake in your dough handling.

With that low of a hydraration any missed step along the way will be exaggerated.

[milo357]

Hey, sorry for the lack of additional info guys.

I am pretty much sticking to the Tom Lehmann's NY-style recipe, but I lowered the water recipe.  I was experimenting around 50%

I do no knead the dough excessively.   At least I don't think so...

I use a KitchenAid mixer with a paddle and dough hook at low speed for 5 - 10 minutes.

I use KASL.  I add EVVO.  I've tried a little sugar.  I cold ferment for 24 - 48 hours.

Does this help?  I'll up the water tonight and let you know.

Milo

[Pete-zza]

Milo,

The KASL has a rated absorption value of 63%. We have some members who go as high as 65% or thereabouts with the KASL. Professional pizza operators, especially those whose workers shape skins entirely by hand, which takes a lot of skill and experience, use a hydration of around 56-59%. Occasionally you will find a dough recipe using high-gluten flour and a hydration close to 50%, such as the famous Big Dave Ostrander "Old Faithful" dough recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976, but such low hydrations are rare. In fact, there were several people in the pizza trade who claimed that they were having problems with Big Dave's recipe because of the small amount of water. So, if I had to pick the first place to change your recipe it would be to up the hydration. For a frame of reference, you can see the range that Tom Lehmann specifies for his NY style recipe at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/.

Peter

[haldi]

50-53% definitely needs to be upped. Such dry dough will also develop more gluten when kneaded than a wetter one.

This percentage will probably need to go up to 60% and as Marc said, it's better to post your recipe to get a full free evaluation/consultancy 

Saad

I am confused over the ratio of flour to water
I'm using 00 pizza flour and recently bought a pizza maker, with elements top and bottom and a pizza stone.


When you talk about 60%, does that mean volume of water compared to volume of flour?

So if you had a jug of flour then you would need more than a jug of water?
I am fairly certain That I have got this wrong.
Please help

[Jack]

It's very straight forward.  Everything is calculated as a percentage of the weight of the flour.

60% hydration mean, if you have 100 grams of flour, use 60 grams of water.

Jack

[haldi]

That is simple
Thank you
I'll be doing that next time

[ThunderStik]

Probably over mixed-try cutting down on the mixing time/speed.

Shango,
              I was gonna let this go, but I cant. Is there a reason you wrote this? Do you have experience in this matter or are writing what somebody has writtten before?

[shango]

Thunderstik,
I have been making pizza professionally for close to 20 years, wood burning mostly.  I find that most often, when my dough is overly elastic, it is from over mixing.  I prefer under mixed to over... In my mind it is easier to deal with possible tearing issues, than to fight a rubbery dough ball.

I don't have a better answer to the OP's question, as I don't really know their procedures.  My comment was just a hunch based on my personal experiences with overly elastic dough.

As a side note, there is a lot of good information on this forum, but there is also not so good information. 

[ThunderStik]

Shango, you have many more years of experience than I. But What I have found is that when most folks say something like that its not from experience.

I have experimented quite a bit with "overkneading". What I have come to realize is that it adds time to the ferm cycle. If you try to use an "underkneaded" dough and an "overkneaded" dough in the same exact time frame, with all things being equal except for the knead then you would be correct. If you allow for extra time for the "overkneaded" dough can/will be as supple and lively as an "underkneaded" dough.

There will be a bit of added chew but thats about it. But above and beyond that your dough will be really well mixed. And should not turn out heavy and lifeless.

[s00da]

As a side note, there is a lot of good information on this forum, but there is also not so good information. 

In your experience, what would you think is the most common "not so good information" we have on the forum?

[shango]

meh.  Not here to argue, and Soooda, I don't feel the need to explain myself. 

[s00da]

Shango, I assure you it was an innocent question. If you see us misinformed on this forum regarding any issue/subject, please don't hesitate to correct us.

[ThunderStik]

Shango, I assure you it was an innocent question. If you see us misinformed on this forum regarding any issue/subject, please don't hesitate to correct us.

Same here.  Im not trying to argue, if im wrong I want to be shown the correct information.

[shango]

Ok guys, sorry if that was a bit snippy. 

I guess the "not so good information"  is more of an assumption that every little detail and nuance of good pizza making, (or anything else) can be accurately explained and conveyed through some text on the internet. 

I know that the community here is trying to help each other out, share knowledge, etc.., but cooking, (and baking especially, which is what pizza makers essentially are-bakers.)  is highly dependent on environment, experience, tools, altitude, humidity, etc..  The list of variables and minutia is nearly infinite. 

Or, there are the posters that claim things can be done one way, and cannot see another way. - I am not going to point fingers here, I'm not even thinking of a particular post, or poster. 

I guess what I'm trying to say about the "not so good information", is that it's the internet.  Everything should be taken with a grain of salt. 

Like I said before, I can only speak from my personal experience, and I come from a professional stand.  Consistency and preparedness for service are 2 of the most important aspects of the professional kitchen.  Usually when I have a problem, such as overly elastic dough, I find the solution that enables me to

1. serve a consistent product
2. have my product ready for service at the scheduled time
3. produce product that makes sense from a time and space standpoint in the professional kitchen.

and then I move on to the next problem.

I know that this forum is made up mostly of "hobby" pizza makers-It is hard for me to see the craft in the same perspective.

No disrespect is intended to anyone that posts or reads pizzamaking.com.  It is a good community.

So to sum it up; No one is wrong or right, look for information that you find useful, but don't think that works for Joe in Denver is going to work exactly the same for Jeff in Honolulu.  There are many roads that are going to lead to the same place-the trick is reading the map, and plotting the course. 

I guess that's why we are all on this board, myself included.

[ThunderStik]

I 100% agree with everything you have said. The list of variables is long, and what works in my kitchen may not even come close in yours. At the same time  the ides and information shared here is outstanding, and between many of the posters here just about any problem can be solved that one will encounter in a home environment.