Author Topic: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)  (Read 2660 times)

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Offline ThunderStik

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First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« on: November 30, 2009, 11:09:20 AM »
So here are some pies I did this weekend. As this was an experiment I started with a known recipe. The only thing I changed was the yeast amount.


Basic recipe.

Hyd- 60%
Salt- 2.25 %
Honey - 4%
Oil -7%
IDY- ?%  1/64 tsp

The recipe is sized for 3 16" with a tf of .06 (IIRC) but I chose to cut the dough down to 4 equal pieces at the last moment as the wife decided she would like to have a pie of her own.

My room temp was between 72-75 and the dough was subjected to a bulk ferment. About 4 hours before bake time I broke the dough down into individual balls. I knew this was going to cause a problem and it did. I dont like to disturb the dough structure once it begins to rise as it will cause stretching problems. At the same time with such small quantities of yeast I wanted to make sure the yeast was dispersed equally, that was the reason for the bulk ferment.


When it came time to stretch the problems were not as bad as I thought they were going to be but I still didnt like some of the uneven stretching that was going on. I stretched them out to about 12".  The dough worked well and seemed to have a good balance of give and take. If it had been balled individually from the beginning they would have been outstanding to work with.

From the feel of the dough it was right in its "prime". It could have gone a few more hours without problems, probably about 3-4 I would guess.

I am a big proponent of getting your dough up to room temp because I feel it makes for a better crumb (nice big holes), so this was not a problem with this dough. Over all it tasted great, I would equate it to a 2-3 day cold ferment.

I also noticed at the time of balling, the tiny little dark specks sometime seen in long term ferments.


I wanted to do something a little different so I have 2 round, a football and a long shaped pie. The wife loved her veggie (with sausage, yeah I know). My brother came in and ate the long one in one sitting and the boys and I ate on the other 2.

Bakeing temps, well my wife lost my oven thermometer and my gun tops out at 600. I would estimate stone temps at 630-650.

Pics to follow.

I apologize for the crappy cam work. (Scotty voice "Dammit Jim im not a photographer!")
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 09:42:19 AM by ThunderStik »
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 11:09:54 AM »
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 11:10:19 AM »
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 11:10:52 AM »
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 11:11:58 AM »
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 11:12:27 AM »
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 11:12:53 AM »
last one
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Offline Jackitup

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 11:43:18 AM »
Sweet looking pies there brother
Save A Cow, Eat A Vegan....Totally Organic And Hormone Free!!

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 11:56:50 AM »
They all look mighty fine to me  ;D
Let them eat pizza.

Offline jeff v

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 01:54:18 PM »
The crumb looks really good! I have done a couple of experiments w/ 24 hr room temp, but am not noticing the same flavor as you and other's report (2-3 days cold), but that was a different style pizza. Great work!

Jeff
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 10:18:00 AM by jeff v »


Offline ThunderStik

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 09:50:14 AM »
Thanks guys. I may play around with it more but I really feel the convenience of the cold ferm process is much better for my schedule. This is kinda like a rocket, once you light the wick your just along for the ride. And yes you could fridge it later to slow it down but your window would be very narrow it looks like.

When a cold ferm is done the window for usability is much wider, and I like that. I may mess around and see if I could do a 3-4 day room temp ferment just for fun though.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2009, 10:38:24 AM »
I may mess around and see if I could do a 3-4 day room temp ferment just for fun though.


Bill,

This I have to see ;D. Using no commercial yeast whatsoever (only wild Texas yeast), the best I could get for a long room-temperature fermentation was 30 hours, as I described at Reply 84 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78779.html#msg78779. In that case, the room temperature in my kitchen was admittedly quite high, at 82 degrees F. I think you would have to have a much lower room temperature to extend the fermentation time, and that temperature may not be the best for the yeast (commercial or wild) and/or enzymes. Using a weak natural starter in relatively small quantity might be another approach to try to reach a few days of fermentation entirely at room temperature.

FYI, Marc (widespreadpizza) experienced similar results to mine, also using no commercial yeast, as discussed at Reply 82 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78756.html#msg78756.

I say go for it and report back on your results, one way or the other.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2009, 11:58:37 AM »
Never fear Pete, I have a plan!  >:D  And I will use commercial yeast. I think it can be done matter of fact im calling my shot right here. I say I can make at least 3 (I believe 4 but to leave some room I will say 3) days using commercial yeast and at room temps of 74ish degrees.

I will try and start tonight, now that you have thrown your shadow of doubt my way. :-D

I will use a basic 58% hyd dough
2% salt

Agreed?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2009, 12:25:14 PM »
Bill,

Even though you haven't convinced me with the plan as briefly described, sure :-D. I will assume that the pizza you make will be edible enough that you dare serve it to your wife. If so and she uses the term "Daddy" as a result, I will concede defeat.

However, to round out the picture, I went back and searched my early posts where I described doughs that I made using small amounts of natural starter with long fermentations at other than in the refrigerator. As best I can tell from that search, the longest fermentation period I achieved, using my wine unit at about 55-65 degrees F, was a total of 44 hours. I described my results at Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25807.html#msg25807.

I didn't mention it earlier, but even if one can achieve very long room-temperature fermentations, the longer the fermentation period the greater the likelihood of significant damage to the gluten structure due to attack by protease enzymes. I alluded to some of those problems in the post referenced above. One might be able to slow down the enzymes by using more salt, but the amount of salt to do this effectively might be more than one would be able to tolerate on the palate.

Another possibility is to use a poolish or like preferment with very small amounts of commercial yeast. However, the prefermentation time wouldn't be tallied as part of the total 3-4 days window.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2009, 01:05:06 PM »
At 58% hyd she wont be saying daddy probably more along the lines of "uncle"  :-D, but I bet she will have a slice...yes without me bribing her. ;D

Yes I will be using a very very small amount of yeast. Just to show you haw confident I am I will even use room temp water and flour.

Yeah its quite possible I have just shot my mouth off or... keyboard. But I like a good challenge. If I fail it wont be the first time (but I wont). I will use basic things that I have learned to slow the process down.

Does time start when the yeast hits the flour or when the dough is balled and in the container?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:53:26 PM by ThunderStik »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 01:14:48 PM »
Does time start when the yeast hits the flour or when the dough is balled and in the container?

Bill,

Unless you plan to knead the dough for two or more days to slow down the fermentation process, I would start the clock when the dough is balled and in the container ;D.

Even if you use ice cold flour and water, that will not buy you much time because the dough will approach room temperature rather quickly.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2009, 01:25:54 PM »
Bill,

Even if you use ice cold flour and water, that will not buy you much time because the dough will approach room temperature rather quickly.

Peter


Thats exactly why I did not plan on doing it.  ;D

Yes a good hard knead is part of the deal.

Actually there is not a whole lot to it.

1) Good long knead, not sure which flour im gonna use yet.
2) After kneading is done and dough is stiff I will "plant" 1 "seed" or "grain" of ADY in the dough.
3) Watch and hope for the best.

Yeah not much to it but I think it will make it a few days.
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Offline milo357

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2009, 06:31:05 PM »
Bill, a couple quick questions ( and clarifications for those of use that are thick as a brick...)

What WAS your starting flour volume?

Did you divide the dough at 20, 24 or 28 hours?

You DID keep it at room temp the entire time it fermented?

Thanks for the reply, I really want to try this, that crust looks killer!

Milo

Offline norma427

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2009, 07:53:51 PM »
ThunderStik,
Interested in seeing your results.  Your pies look really yummy!  :)
Pleeeease don't say that Daddy thing, again.  :-D
Norma
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: First shot at 24hr hour room temp ferm.(W/pics)
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2009, 10:09:26 PM »
Bill, a couple quick questions ( and clarifications for those of use that are thick as a brick...)

What WAS your starting flour volume?

Did you divide the dough at 20, 24 or 28 hours?

You DID keep it at room temp the entire time it fermented?

Thanks for the reply, I really want to try this, that crust looks killer!

Milo

Milo,

Flour was 596g.
Yes it was 100% room temp
Dough was divided at about 20hrs. If I had to do it again I would do a punch down and divide at about 16-18hrs if possible. This would provide more time to re-develope the dough structure and get a more uniform stretch of the skin.

Norma thank you.


Norma, Pete,        I have not had a chance to thry the experiment yet. I have been up to my eyeballs the last 2 nights. I will get to it soon though.
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

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