Author Topic: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga  (Read 46408 times)

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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2005, 08:28:15 AM »
Pete-zza,
You have furthered the craft of pizza making once again with your latest effort. Thanks for sharing. I know I learn something new everytime you share. A couple of follow-up questions -

Would it be fair to say that you have experienced a better overall outcome of result with the incorpration of a biga in your recipe?

If so, is the biggest impact on the flavor side, the leavening side, or the crust structure? I would be interested in learning your views on these issues. Also, can we expect you to incorporate the use of malt into your pizza making in the future? I would be particularly interested in how your biga with malt performs. Perhaps you will consider malt when you try a high gluten type recipe.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2005, 04:00:53 PM »
pft,

Overall, I have been quite pleased so far with the use of the Caputo 00 natural starter. What has intrigued me the most is being able to make a dough ball using a small amount of a starter (1/2 t. of the Caputo starter for a single-size pizza dough ball) that is still rather immature and have the dough ball sustain a fermentation period at room temperature for over 18 hours and not overferment. As I indicated previously, the last dough ball did not rise in any noticeable manner over the entire 18+ hour fermentation period, yet produced a tasty crust. That was a big--and pleasant--surprise since I expected to see some sign of leavening taking place in the dough over an 18+ hour time period. So, as long as I am able to sustain my Caputo starter, I suspect I will use it to make the Neapolitan style pizzas. The pizzas I made this past week using the Caputo 00 natural starter were all very good. They were among the best of the Pizza Margherita pizzas I have made.

Yet, there are still a lot of open questions. I don't yet know what the outer limit is (in hours) for the fermentation process at room temperature (especially a seasonally varying one), and I don't yet know the correlation between the amount of starter used and the finished product, in terms of flavor, texture or anything else. I would like to get more bubbling in the dough, but I don't yet know how to achieve that without doing things like adding commercial yeast in a quantity that will guarantee bubbling. In the last experiment, I used the highest hydration percent that I could handle from a dough wetness/stickiness standpoint, but that didn't produce more bubbles. Maybe using more starter, or a more mature one, will do the trick, but I won't know for certain until I actually try those possibilities.

As previously indicated, I would also like to repeat the basic recipe but using commercial yeast, and, for further comparison purposes, I would like to try out another 00 flour, the Bel Aria, in one of my standard 00 dough recipes. In the latter experiment, I would use the double stone/broiler approach to be able to do an apples-to-apples comparison. Both of these experiments should help me put natural starters in a clearer perspective.

In direct answer to one of your questions, I found the Caputo natural starter to have the greatest benefit in terms of flavor in the crust. It was quite nice, with soft sourdough flavor overtones that were complementary to the other flavors of the pizzas rather than overtaking them.

There is nothing that leads me to believe that a natural starter, even the Caputo one I already have on hand, cannot be used with a high-gluten flour, either alone or with your old favorite, the Carnation malted milk. It has been time limitations that have prevented me from doing more with the malted milk, but I see that fellow member Friz has used the malted milk in a Lehmann NY style dough and has even identified the best amount to use (I think it was 2 t. for a 16-inch). Most of the time I have spent on the Lehmann NY style dough recipe has been in adapting the basic recipe to different dough sizes and to different home equipment so that more people will be able to try the recipe. But it has been my intent all along to expand my horizons by trying the malted milk in a Lehmann NY style dough. From my recent experiments with the Caputo 00 starter, it would be a natural progression to try the starter also. Who knows, maybe the Lehmann NY style dough with malted milk and the Caputo 00 (or other) natural starter?

Peter
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 03:20:48 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2005, 10:00:50 PM »
Following up on the recent suggestion of fellow member Friz, tonight I repeated the experiment using the Caputo 00 flour and starter but using a commercial yeast (IDY) instead of the Caputo 00 natural starter.

I started the dough late last night and put it on my kitchen countertop to ferment overnight. I tried as much as possible to make the IDY dough ball so that it would approximate as closely as possible the last one I made using the Caputo 00 natural starter. The only significant change I made to the recipe was to use a very small amount of IDY instead of the Caputo 00 starter. I had calculated that the amount of IDY that would be needed would be 0.03-0.05 t. This was too small to measure, so the amount of IDY I used was a very small pinch between the thumb and forefinger. To be sure that such a small amount of IDY would permeate the entire flour mixture and not just a small part of it, I intentionally hydrated the IDY with a small amount of warm water rather than just mixing it in with the flour. The dough was otherwise made the same way as previously described, and the finished dough ball had the same weight as the previous one using the Caputo 00 starter--about 8.85 oz., or enough for a 12-inch pizza.

The dough ball was allowed to rise for 12 hours, during which time the dough noticeably increased in volume--by about half. I then knocked the dough down and let it rise again, this time for an additional 6-7 hours. During the second rise, the dough about doubled in volume. It showed no signs of "over ripening" and it was then shaped. It was soft, a bit moist (it had a high hydration) and easy to shape into a round (12-inch). The dough when shaped had few noticeable bubbles and, unlike the doughs made with the Caputo 00 natural starter, it didn't have a noticeable fermentation odor. The pizza was dressed and baked in the same manner as previously described.

The biggest difference between tonight's experiment and the ones using the Caputo 00 natural starter were in the crust and flavor. The crust from tonight's pizza was thicker and softer, a bit more breadlike and with more body and a more pronounced, chewy rim. However, the flavor was not anywhere near the flavor from using the Caputo 00 natural starter. While I liked the greater thickness of tonight's pizza, overall I preferred the ones made with the Caputo 00 natural starter better because of the more intensified flavor. The comparative results lead me to believe that to increase the crust thickness using a natural starter rather than commercial yeast I may have to have a more potent natural starter or use more of it. That will be the subject of a future experiment.

The photos below show the finished product.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 10:03:22 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2005, 08:58:52 PM »
Tonight I conducted a further experiment using the Caputo 00 natural starter. In the last test using the same starter, I used a very small amount of the starter, about 1/2 t., a fairly high hydration percent, and a long fermentation (12 hours) followed by a proofing ("ripening") period of 6-7 hours. The purpose of the most recent experiment was to see what would happen if I used considerably more natural starter, an even higher hydration percentage (along the lines of pizzanapoletana's "wet dough"), and even longer fermentation and ripening periods. What I was hoping to achieve was a thicker, more open and airy crumb and rim, while retaining the flavors created through the fermentation and ripening processes.

I started the dough for tonight's pizza last evening. I used the same ingredients in essentially the same quantities as before except that I drastically increased the amount of the Caputo 00 starter from 1/2 t. to 2 1/2 T., I reduced the amount of salt a bit to encourage greater rising of the dough, and I increased the amount of water to the point where the dough was really "wet"--essentially incapable of being handled without completely sticking to my fingers. I theorized that that was most likely the highest hydration level I would ever be able to achieve in a practical sense, and if I were successful using such a high hydration level the finished crust would be more open and airy than I have been able to achieve before.

Unlike the previous experiments using the Caputo natural starter in which the doughs were kneaded completely by hand, the dough for the most recent pizza was kneaded using my food processor. The steps I followed were the same as for hand kneading but using the food processor instead and the slightly different sequences made necessary from using the processor (e.g., the water and starter were added to the flour in the bowl rather than the other way around).

The finished dough was put on my kitchen counter where it remained unmolested for 14 hours. Unlike the dough that I had made using only 1/2 t. of the starter, which did not rise in any noticeable manner during the prolonged fermentation period, the most recent dough rose by about one-half during the 14-hour fermentation period. I punched the dough down and let it rise again for an additional 7 hours. During that time, the dough about doubled in volume. Since the dough was quite wet, I decided to shape it directly on the peel, using enough bench flour on the peel to minimize sticking. By handling the dough gingerly, I somehow managed to shape and stretch the dough to around 12 inches in diameter without the dough sticking to the peel. What I was hoping to see was a lot of bubbles formed in the dough. They weren't there, and I didn't want to wait around for them to appear for fear that the dough would stick to the peel in the meantime. After quickly dressing the pizza, it was baked in the same manner as previously described.

The photos below show the finished product. The crust was thicker, chewier and with a more open and airy crumb than the past experiments, and had a nice flavor. However, I concluded that I actually preferred the thinner versions I had made before, where the crust was more crunchy and flavorful because of the thinness and also the greater degree of browning and carbonization. But one of the key lessons I took away from tonight's experiment is that it is not necessary to use an excessive amount of the natural starter. The dough will have greater volume expansion if more starter rather than less is used, but that doesn't necessarily mean a better tasting crust. In fact, by using a smaller amount of the starter, the fermentation period and the succeeding proofing (ripening) period most likely can be prolonged and result in even greater flavor because of the increased by-products of fermentation. In some respects, this in not unlike what happens when a lot of commercial yeast is used. Consequently, what pizzanapoletana says about creating a dough that hardly rises seems to make good sense.

As for the hydration level, I am inclined to go back to something below the "wet dough" level, but still striving for higher hydration levels. I would also be inclined to go back to the original level of salt. I noticed the difference immediately upon biting into the crust, but by that time it was too late to compensate simply by adding salt to the pizza itself.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:35:09 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2005, 12:14:22 PM »
Last night I made a couple of pizzas using Bel Aria flour and the standard recipe I have been using over the past few years to make a home version of Neapolitan pizza using a standard home oven. The main reason for making the pizzas was to compare them with the ones I recently made using the Caputo 00 flour and the natural Caputo 00 starter. As many readers probably already know, the Bel Aria flour is a low-protein, low-gluten flour--considerably lower than the comparable numbers for the Caputo 00 flour. I suspect also that the Bel Aria flour may have low amylase properties, which may render it less useful for optimum performance for a Neapolitan pizza as might be made in Italy.

The dough ball for each of the pizzas weighed around 8 oz., or enough to make a 10-12-inch pizza. The dough was subjected to a total knead time of 30 minutes in a KA stand mixer at low speed, a first rise at room temperature of 4 hours and a second rise (after being knocked down) of 3 hours, also at room temperature. The dough ingredients were only the Bel Aria 00 flour, salt, IDY and water--no sugar and no oil. Out of curiosity, I also added a bit (about 1 1/2 t.) of Caputo 00 starter, just to see if this would increase the flavor quotient of the finished crust. The dough had a hydration percent of around 63%. When the dough was ready to be shaped, it handled very nicely, with the right combination of elasticity and extensibility. It was dressed and baked in the same manner as with the other pizzas I made and described previously on this thread.

The photos below show the finished product. But this is one of those instances where the photo belies reality. By that I mean the pizza looks better than it actually was. The pizza tasted fine but overall it wasn't as good as those using the Caputo 00 flour and the natural Caputo 00 starter, or even the one made with the Caputo 00 flour and IDY.  Its texture had a nice chew and crunch but it was a bit on the pasty side. Moreover, I couldn't detect any flavor enhancement from using the Caputo 00 starter that I had added to the dough.

I found all of the above to be quite disturbing, since it suggests that the Caputo 00 flour may have significant advantages over the Bel Aria flour for a Neapolitan style pizza, particularly when used with a natural starter. While I am not about to give up on the Bel Aria flour for this application, and plan further experiments with that flour to improve its performance, I would like to avoid having to tell our members that to make a decent Neapolitan style pizza that bears resemblance to the real thing they will have to go out and buy a 55 lb. bag of the Caputo 00 flour, and if they want better flavor, to make or buy a natural starter. Even then, you won't be able to emulate pizzanapoletana's worthy efforts unless you have a wood-burning oven or its equivalent capable of very high bake temperatures. Under these circumstances, what I would like to see is efforts taken to determine how to make passable Neapolitan style pizzas using 00 flours that are readily available to our members (such as the Bel Aria, Delverde, etc.), and using a standard home oven. If pizzanapoletana has ideas or suggestions on how to accomplish this, I am all ears.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:39:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2005, 01:26:09 PM »
Sorry to have to read about your disappointing results. Sometimes it just doesn't seem to want to work out.

I'm afraid I won't be much help with non-Caputo 00 experimentation since I still have the better part of 40+ lbs of Caputo sitting in my freezer. I might be reporting on my Caputo Challenge soon if all goes well. If so, I will use this thread to update.

I do have one thought which may be of interest, DC PN mentioned a King Arthur flour called "Special" which he claims is superior to Caputo. I couldn't find it on their web site but it may be worth a look. I'm certain it's available in much smaller quantities.
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2005, 06:50:17 PM »
You could add 10-15% of a strong bread flour (No bromated please) to the standard 00 flour. It did work for me in the past here in UK when I could not find proper Pizzeria flours.

I was using a Stong white bread flour (13g preteins) from Allison added to a standard Polselli 00 flour. The results were actually good, but the taste given by the caputo pizzeria is still the best.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2005, 09:05:02 PM »
Pizza Napoletana,

Thank you for the suggestion to combine some bread flour with the Bel Aria 00.

It had occurred to me to combine some of the Caputo 00 flour with the Bel Aria 00 flour. The idea came to me from a conversation I had with the chief pizza maker at Naples 45, a restaurant in NYC that specializes in authentic Neapolitan pizzas (it is also one of the two or three NYC restaurants that has the VPN certification). The last time I saw him, he gave me samples of the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour and another Caputo flour that comes in a red bag. I believe the flour in the red bag is lower in protein than the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, but I have been unable to confirm that. In any event, the chief pizza maker at Naples 45 apparently blends the two flours (something he apparently learned to do when he grew up in Naples), and suggested that I do the same.

The above aside, one of the positive aspects of a low-protein 00 flour like the Bel Aria 00 flour is that it can be used to make pizzas faster than with any other flour I have tried. In my case, I have been able to make a "Neapolitan style" pizza within an hour, from beginning to end. I often use it to make pizzas with eggs, as a quick breakfast or brunch dish. When I have tried the Caputo 00 flour or any of the well-known domestic flours, the results were not as good as the Bel Aria, quite possibly because the other flours have higher protein and gluten contents. When I tried the Caputo flour in the red bag, it seemed to work better than the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, which leads me to believe that the Caputo red is lower in protein/gluten than the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour. Do you know this to be true?

Peter

Offline ilpizzaiolo

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2005, 02:21:22 AM »
if you go to http://www.kingarthurflour.com/flour/professional.php you will be connected to the professional baker section of their web site... there are many informative formulas and conversion as well as spec sheets for all the flours. sir lancelot, sir galahad, king arthur special... the king arthur special flour is very good flour and a good substitution for caputo. however, it is different. they have almost the same absorption qualities, but the caputo stands up to the high heat required to make pizza napoletana better than any of them. the king arthur italian style flour is lower in protein than caputo pizzeria flour. i would guess that is is more similar to the regular 00 flours. the sir lancelot flour makes wonderful new york style dough.... king arthur is a great company. especially their professional division.. their main guy todd bramble is very educated and willing to help people... very good natured person. 


Offline Nathan

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2005, 07:30:33 AM »
Pizza Napoletana,

Thank you for the suggestion to combine some bread flour with the Bel Aria 00.

It had occurred to me to combine some of the Caputo 00 flour with the Bel Aria 00 flour. The idea came to me from a conversation I had with the chief pizza maker at Naples 45, a restaurant in NYC that specializes in authentic Neapolitan pizzas (it is also one of the two or three NYC restaurants that has the VPN certification). The last time I saw him, he gave me samples of the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour and another Caputo flour that comes in a red bag. I believe the flour in the red bag is lower in protein than the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, but I have been unable to confirm that. In any event, the chief pizza maker at Naples 45 apparently blends the two flours (something he apparently learned to do when he grew up in Naples), and suggested that I do the same.

The above aside, one of the positive aspects of a low-protein 00 flour like the Bel Aria 00 flour is that it can be used to make pizzas faster than with any other flour I have tried. In my case, I have been able to make a "Neapolitan style" pizza within an hour, from beginning to end. I often use it to make pizzas with eggs, as a quick breakfast or brunch dish. When I have tried the Caputo 00 flour or any of the well-known domestic flours, the results were not as good as the Bel Aria, quite possibly because the other flours have higher protein and gluten contents. When I tried the Caputo flour in the red bag, it seemed to work better than the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, which leads me to believe that the Caputo red is lower in protein/gluten than the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour. Do you know this to be true?

Peter

Have you checked their website?

http://www.molinocaputo.it/#
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Offline varasano

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2005, 11:17:33 AM »
The pie I had at Naples 45 was a huge disappointment. My pie is way, way, way better than theirs. So personally, I wouldn't follow the chef's instructions.

Jeff

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2005, 11:36:03 AM »
Nathan and Jeff,

Yes, I have been to the Caputo website many times and went again yesterday to check before posting my message to pizzanapoletana, but I couldn't find any specs on the flours.

As you know, pizzas made with 00 flour are quite different from the style of pizza you are making. I believe that Naples 45 is doing all the right things from an authenticity standpoint (including using the right wood-burning ovens and water that mirrors the water of Naples, etc.), but that doesn't necessarily mean that you will like their Neapolitan pizzas better than some other style, including yours. I personally try to compare different 00 pizzas with other 00 pizzas rather than NY style, American style, DiFara hybrid, etc., even though I like all of those styles. I guess I treat Neapolitan pizzas as a genus rather than a species so that I don't end up comparing them with something else.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:43:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline varasano

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2005, 12:17:09 PM »
I gotcha.  But honestly, it's not just the style.  You can have the outward appearance of doing all the right things and still end up with a lame pie.  There are plenty of wood burning brick oven places in Atlanta that make awful pizza.  All 5 of us at Naples 45 looked at each other and said, "All that effort for this?"  It was just lame.  Bland and tasteless.  The crust was not springy. The dough needed salt. The sauce was tasteless.  Maybe we just had a bad day.

By the way, I can report the first halfway descent pizza in Atlanta. WoodFire Grill makes a shitake/onion/leek/balsamic syrup pie that was actually excellent. The crust was not 100% but overall it was really nice. We even got a second pie.  The brick oven is not hot enough, but it was still good.

Jeff

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2005, 06:26:47 PM »
The Caputo Red is actually higher in proteins then the Pizzeria. I report here below their technical characteristics.

00R Reinforced Red

protein 12-13%
Wet Gluten 34-36%
W 270-300
absorption 55-57%
falling number 340-360
p/l 0,5-0,6


00 pizzeria

protein 11,5-12,5
Wet Gluten 32-34
W 240-260
absorption 55-57
Falling number 340-360
p/l 0,5-0,6


Caputo produce the red since 30 years circa whilst started producing the Pizzeria, 20 years ago circa.

The Caputo pizzeria does not need mixing with stronger flour. The mixing tradition started after the Second World War, when they would add some Manitoba flour W400  (max 15%) to their Italian flour (W180).

For what I heard from trustworthy sources, Naples 45 doesn't produce a traditional Neapolitan pizza. The ovens I have seen in the pictures don't seam the right ones.


I don't like just to tell you things, but Peter, just look at the facts and tell me how someone mixing a stronger flour (probably 50-50 like some other not good Neapolitan pizza) with the Caputo already good medium strength flour, and with a low enzyme activity, can produce a light, soft and melting in the mouth pizza. What they do is producing chewing-gum ...

A good pizza shows when it become colds. If stays soft and it is not gummy, it is a good pizza.

The difficulty and superiority of real Neapolitan pizza, is the fact that is soft, light and “melting" even when cold. Trust me it is not hard to make crackers or gummy pizza. The difficulty is to make a traditional pizza napoletana. To understand what I am talking about, you have to taste it.


Offline pftaylor

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2005, 07:31:36 PM »
Everytime someone who really knows how to unlock the secrets of Caputo Pizzeria flour describes the pizza you can make from it, my mouth waters. But I'm cursed over how to create a good tasting pie at home with the tools available to me.

I'm beginning to think that only one type of oven in the world, plus meticulous attention to detail are required to get a great tasting pie. If that's the case, I might as well pack it in and give up.

It would be cheaper for me to buy a plane ticket to Naples and have dinner at the best restaurant in Naples than it would cost me to properly recreate an authentic Neapolitan pie.

Pizza Napoletana, I implore you to describe a method for creating a good tasting Caputo pie based on the assets I have. Specifically:
800 degree grill (with uniform heat)
Caputo based biga
Bufala Mozzarella
San Marzano Tomatoes
Caputo Pizzeria Flour
Pellegrino Water
And one thing you can't measure - The burning desire to learn.

Otherwise I will be relagated to eating bubble gum for the rest of my life.
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Offline ilpizzaiolo

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2005, 10:54:39 PM »
the ovens from naples  are not the right oven for the job. they are from woodstone ovens and can be viewed and spec'd at
http://www.woodstone-corp.com/gallery_tile_naples.htm... they build a good commercial oven, but it does not cook the pizza properly.
Also Naples 45 is a concept owned by a large restaurant group. there is no passion, and the product has been diluted and altered in an attemp to give this place appeal. it is a sad pizza because it is not as good as new york's coal brick oven's and gives true neapolitan pizza a bad name... the are basically making a generic version of the true pizza.. here is their web site if anyone wants to see the menu...
http://www.naples45.com/
they did their homework, then failed in their execution...
ciao

 - ron


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2005, 12:15:21 AM »
Ron, I was aware that Naples 45 is part of a larger restaurant group, and in such cases I do not expect to see the same level of passion as might exist in a smaller operation where the pressures to produce profits may not be as severe. What I was most interested in was learning about the ingredients and techniques that go into making an authentic Neapolitan pizza. At the time I first visited with the chief pizza maker at Naples 45 all I had to go by was what I had read and the closest ingredients I could find to try to make Neapolitan style pizzas at home. From that initial visit and subsequent visits I was able to get a better feel for the process. I subsequently read that Naples 45 received a magazine award of some kind for its pizzas.

Pizzanapoletana, thanks for providing the information on the Caputo flours. Originally I was led to believe that the Caputo flour in the red bag was a 0 grade flour, but the importer/distributor said that he believed that the flour in the red bag was also a 00 flour, possibly with lower protein content than the Caputo pizzeria flour in the blue bag. If we are talking about the same flours I agree that it wouldn't make much sense to mix the two flours.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:45:48 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Robin

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2005, 04:49:57 AM »
pizzanapoletana:

I also live in the UK. Can you tell me where I can obtain the Caputo OO pizzeria flour that you use?

Thanks,

Robin

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2005, 07:30:24 AM »
pizzanapoletana:

I also live in the UK. Can you tell me where I can obtain the Caputo OO pizzeria flour that you use?

Thanks,

Robin

www.nifeislife.com, but they only sell the caputo pizzeria to commercial operations in 25kg bags. Also, they only deliver within central London. You need to consider a large order if you would like them to meet your request.

Good luck with that.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2005, 09:24:45 PM »
Following up on the recent suggestion of Pizza Napoletana, I decided yesterday to start a dough using a combination of Bel Aria 00 flour and a bread flour, in an effort to increase the protein/gluten levels of the Bel Aria 00 flour to make it more suitable for Neapolitan style pizzas. While I was at it, I also decided to make a dough using a combination of the Bel Aria 00 flour and Caputo 00 pizzeria flour. Both doughs incorporated a Caputo 00 natural starter, in amounts at the upper end of the 1-5% range (by weight of water) recommended by pizzanapoletana. pizzanapoletana also recommended using 10-15% of bread flour with the Bel Aria 00 flour. I chose to use the 15% figure for both doughs.

The ingredients for the first pizza were as follows: an 85%/15% blend of Bel Aria 00 flour and King Arthur bread flour (4.60 oz. of Bel Aria 00 flour and 0.80 oz. of King Arthur bread flour), 3.45 oz. water (around 64% hydration), 3/4 t. Sicilian sea salt, 1/2 t. olive oil, and about 3/4 t. Caputo 00 natural starter (about 0.20 oz.). The ingredients for the second pizza were the same as for the first pizza except that the flour blend (also 85%/15%) was Bel Aria flour (4.60 oz.) and Caputo 00 pizzeria flour (0.80 oz.). Both doughs were kneaded entirely by hand, using the basic processing techniques as previously described. The finished dough weights in both cases were around 9 oz., or enough to make two 12-inch pizzas.

Once the kneading of the two doughs was completed, they were lightly coated with olive oil and put into plastic storage bags and set on my kitchen counter at a room temperature of around 65-70 degrees F. Initially, both doughs were in a ball shape, but after several hours they started to slouch into a pancake-like affair. Both dough balls remained on the kitchen counter for 24 hours. I then reshaped the two dough balls and left them out at room temperature (in their storage bags) for another 5 hours (ripening period). So, both dough balls were at room temperature for a total of about 29 hours. During the 5-hour ripening period, the two dough balls slouched again into pancake-shaped disks. It turned out that this behavior was not a deterrent to a successful outcome, and I mention it only so that anyone repeating my experiment is not discouraged in seeing the dough behave that way. One of the things I specifically looked for as I examined the doughs from time to time was the telltale odor of fermentation, like a sourdough smell. At first the odor was faint, but with time intensified.

Both dough balls handled easily when the time came to form them into skins. The dough with the KA bread flour had a surprising amount of elasticity, given the fact that it had remained at room temperature for over 29 hours, but it relaxed as I shaped it and produced a good skin to work with. The dough with the Caputo 00 flour was more extensible than the other dough and also shaped nicely. There were no signs of overfermentation and there was some bubbling of the skins in both cases, but not enough to warrant taking photos. Both skins were dressed in the same manner and baked in the same manner as previously described.

The photos below show the results of tonight's efforts (the first photo is of the Bel Aria 00/KA bread flour pizza and the second photo is of the Bel Aria 00/Caputo 00 pizza). Both pizzas turned out exceptionally well, although I preferred the pizza with the Bel Aria/King Arthur blend. The crust was chewy, with softness in the center and a nice crunch at the rim. And with a ton of flavor--really, really nice but without an overpowering sourdough-like flavor. I would rank the pizza among the best Neapolitan-style pizzas I have made. The other pizza was also very good but the texture of the crust was not quite up to par with the first pizza, even though it had a more airy crust.

But either way, the results indicate that it is possible to use a low-protein 00 flour like the Bel Aria 00 flour together with a commonly available bread flour (such as the KA bread flour) to make a very good, if not excellent, Neapolitan style pizza in a standard home oven. It also means that one need not buy a 55-pound bag of Caputo pizzeria flour, even though it is a good flour, when 1 kg. (2.2 lbs.) bags of Bel Aria 00 flour are available from several sources. One point that should be kept in mind, however, is that I used two pizza stones, one on the bottom rack of my oven, and a second one at the upper rack of my oven directly under the broiler element (both stones were preheated for about an hour at 500-550 degrees F). The second stone was used to create increased top browning of the crust during the final minute or two of baking. However, I believe it is possible to dispense with the upper stone and simply place the pizza for the final minute or two directly under the broiler element. Alternatively, you can put the stone on the middle rack and turn on the broiler for a final few minutes of top cooking.

I'd like to thank pizzanapoletana for his suggestion on how better to use the Bel Aria flour. I think it may open the door more widely to our members to have the experience of trying out Neapolitan style pizzas. Grazie mille, Marco.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:49:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2005, 05:55:29 AM »
You cracked the case. Quickly too. Hearty congratulations are in order.

You really are a pizza detective of the first rank. You leave no aspect of the recipe, dough management or overall technique to chance. It was only a matter of time.

I now feel better about my Caputo investment. There was a period where I almost threw it all in the trash. You have given me the confidence to continue.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2005, 11:46:06 AM »
in amounts at the upper end of the 1-5% range (by weight of flour) recommended by Pizza Napoletana

. Grazie mille, Marco.

Peter


Peter,

Prego e di niente..

The only thing, when I suggest quantity of  starter, I was talking to weight of water. That as you are surely aware it is much less then what you actually used.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 07:47:26 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2005, 11:56:23 AM »
Marco,

Thank you for correcting me on the starter ratio. I am so used to using baker's percents in relation to flour that I overlooked what you originally said. I used 3.45 oz. of water, so the amount of starter I should have used should have been in the range of 0.035 oz. at the low end and 0.17 oz. at the upper end. I overshot the upper number but the pizzas turned out fine anyway. So as not to confuse anyone I have corrected my earlier post to indicate the correct ratio.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 15, 2005, 12:02:39 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline friz78

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2005, 12:09:46 PM »
Pete,
Congratulations on a great looking Neapolitan pizza.  I know you have always done good things with the Bel Aria product and preferred it over the Delverde and KA00.  It seems now that you have also found a combination that exceeds your efforts with Caputo. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2005, 01:51:10 PM »
friz,

I still have some more experiments in me, but there are two things that stick out when I think about what I have been doing in making the pizzas, especially those using the Caputo 00 natural starter. The first thing is how simple it is to make the pizza dough. Once you have weighed the flour and water and assembled the rest of the ingredients, the processing is simplicity itself and you can just leave the dough on the kitchen countertop for over a day (assuming normal room temperatures) without worrying whether the dough will fail in some respect.

The second thing is the flavor that comes with using the starter. I'm not much given to hyperbole, but the flavor is intense and noticeable, without being overwhelming. It takes a bit of time to make the starter, especially a natural one, but I think any natural starter is likely to work. I don't believe it has to be with the Caputo 00 flour, although if one has the Caputo flour and wants to try to replicate Neapolitan pizza practices as closely as possible, then by all means one should use it. I have been trying to resuscitate some old starters that had become dormant in my refrigerator, and I may try one of them just out of curiosity to see if there is any noticeable difference.

Peter


 

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