Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 120426 times)

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #500 on: July 13, 2010, 10:42:25 PM »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #501 on: July 13, 2010, 10:43:34 PM »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #502 on: July 13, 2010, 10:45:25 PM »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #503 on: July 13, 2010, 10:46:49 PM »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #504 on: July 13, 2010, 10:48:23 PM »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #505 on: July 13, 2010, 11:24:35 PM »
Norma as you may be aware, oven spring is likely a result of many factors including oven temps.  Just some I'm thinking off the top of my head are hydration ratios, % and type of yeast, fermentation time and temp, oven temps, appropriate top and bottom heat (ie type of oven), protein content of the flour, bromated vs non bromated flours, thickness of the pizza skin, pressing the rim vs not pressing the rim, environmental factors, the position of the moon and stars (JK), etc, etc. 

If all other factors remain identical, I believe a higher temp will give a better spring but don't know for sure.  I've only notice that I tend to get better spring with higher temps if all other factors are the same.  Having said that, water boils and turns to steam at 212F, so technically would any temp above 212F provide the same amount of oven spring if all other factors are the same?

A simple test will provide you with your answer.  Take doughballs from the same batch and bake the first at a lower temp, then crank the heat up and bake the 2nd one.  If you want to keep the the proof times exactly the same, then you can take the 2nd dough ball out of the fridge maybe 15 min after the first.  This should give you about 15 min between bakes to measure rim rise, take pics, allow the oven temps to rise, stretch and top the next pie, and bake. 

I hope you will consider doing this test so we can know for sure.   I would try to vary the temps by at least 100F if not 150F.  You may get the same spring but just a darker crust with the higher temp bake.   

JT
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 11:33:02 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #506 on: July 13, 2010, 11:44:41 PM »
Jackie Tran,

I know oven spring can be caused by many factors.  I have used different flours in this same oven, including All Trumps, Kyrol, Pillsbury Balancer and now KASL.  I have watched this poolish preferment for a while from week to week and have had my oven temperature up higher different times, and couldnít notice a difference in the oven spring.  All I got was a darker bottom crust and a shorter bake time. 

If I have time next week and the temperatures at market arenít too hot, I will try your idea at the end of the night, so I can make sure my bake temperatures wonít be too far off, if the bake doesnít go well.

This is why I really donít have a theory at this time, but keep watching.  Somehow I think oven spring is also related to the dough formula.  This same dough is what gave me good oven spring, when using it in the BBQ grill set-up at lower temperatures, also.

Thanks for your ideas,

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #507 on: July 15, 2010, 12:29:13 AM »
Norma - sorry I didn't wait.  I was baking tonight and decided to do the test to see if temps do affect crust rise or not.  Should I post my results here or start a new thread?

JT

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #508 on: July 15, 2010, 06:22:37 AM »
Norma - sorry I didn't wait.  I was baking tonight and decided to do the test to see if temps do affect crust rise or not.  Should I post my results here or start a new thread?

JT

Jackie Tran,

I am interested to see what you results were using your formula, and seeing if temperatures did contribute to a crust rise for you.  I have only been fooling around with this one formula, so that is why I don't have a theory on this.  This formula is only 61% hydration, and I know you use a higher hydration. 

It's okay with me for you to start another thread, because you are the one that is also experimenting.  Maybe different formulas will act different.  That is what I wonder, also.  ::)

Maybe time will tell what formulas have to do with a rise in the crust while baking at different temperatures.

Norma
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 07:13:59 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #509 on: July 15, 2010, 07:07:11 AM »
Will do Norma.  I'll do a proper write up in another thread and link to it. I put it here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11381.msg103651.html#msg103651

So I was wrong about a higher temperature producing a bigger oven spring.  As you stated earlier Norma, it only gets you a darker crust faster.  >:D Ovenspring definitely has a lot to do with the dough formulation as that encompasses many of the other factors I previously stated.  It's nice to see that you get huge oven spring even with a lower hydration ratio.  Heck, who knows I may be wrong about that one as well!  Back to the kitchen for me!!:-D 

Chau
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 07:41:37 AM by Jackie Tran »


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #510 on: July 21, 2010, 08:09:12 AM »

Jackie Tran,

I didnít forget about the experiment I said I was going to do for you, in trying two dough balls and using a higher and lower bake temperature to see what would happen with oven spring.  Steve (Ev) and I were going to do the experiment yesterday, but when we went to do the experiment, I saw that I had forgotten my IR thermometer.  I had left it at home, from my experiment with the Ultra-Thin par-baked skins. I have never turned my oven up to full tilt, so I thought I would need the thermometer to see how high the temperature can get and also to see what the results would be at whatever temperature this oven can get. Hopefully next week I will remember to take the thermometer along to market.  I am still studying this dough and Steve and I were watching yesterday, when I opened my dough, I usually use.  I still donít understand about this dough, but when opening it, you can see a difference even in oven spring, on how you open the dough and how much rim you leave on the dough.  I didnít take any pictures because I had forgot the thermometer to do the experiment for you.  My dough, after cold fermenting for a day in the plastic food safe bag, does get moister until the next day.  I donít know if it just this dough, or the plastic bags that make the dough moister until the next day.  I will have to put one dough ball in a plastic container and see if that makes a difference in this dough formula.  As we watched the dough, while opening, most of the day, you could see how big bubbles would form along the rim, while opening this dough in different ways.  Even in the same temperature oven, different ways the dough was opened produced different oven spring.  Some of the finished pies did have great oven spring.  I still donít know how all this relates to oven spring, but am going to keep on studying this dough.  I can see that maybe the increased moisture from the plastic bag does help this dough to have more oven spring, even if this dough is only 61% hydration.  Right now my opinion is the increased moisture gets converted to steam when hitting the hot oven deck and then helps oven spring.  I will keep on studying this dough.  Also letting this dough out for varying amounts of time to warm-up, also does produce different results in oven spring, with more bubbles forming in the plastic bag.

Norma

This is another experiment I did on this dough in my last BBQ grill set-up, on Sunday.  I was going to try a smaller dough ball in the BBQ grill set-up with firebricks with a lower bake temperature and see what happened, but I decided to use a regular weight dough ball, to see what would happen, with letting the dough thicker and also letting the rim bigger.  I was surprised to see the dough rising so quickly at the lower bake temperature.  As can be seen on these pictures the rising dough almost hit the top of the steel pan.  I had trouble rotating this pie, because the rim was getting so big, and I didnít want to mess the pie up by hitting the top steel pan.  I still am thinking about the results of this bake.  The thicker dough, did get great oven spring, even at lower temperatures. I don't know with the lower ratio of head space is this also contributed to the rise. The pie didnít need a underneath pan to keep this pie from burning on the bottom, near the end of the bake.  The inside of the rim and inside of the bottom crust were very moist, while the outside rim and bottom crust were crispy.  I dressed this pie with 6 in 1 tomato sauce with added sea salt, sugar, and a sprinkling of Krinos oregano.  The Foremost Blend of cheese was used in combination with fresh grape tomatoes.  After this pie was baked, I topped the pie with opal and regular basil.  Right now, in my opinion letting the rim and crust thicker did help oven spring, with even using a lower bake temperature.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #511 on: July 21, 2010, 08:10:17 AM »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #512 on: July 21, 2010, 08:11:00 AM »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #513 on: July 24, 2010, 11:24:40 PM »
Looks like you got some great oven spring there Norma.  what you are observing in the dough under different circumstances makes sense to me. 

When the dough is allowed to proof inside the bag, it traps moisture.  This does 2 things I can see.  1) is prevent moisture loss so that equates to a wetter moister dough which will give better oven spring given the same baking temps.  And 2) prevents a skin from former which will also allow it to proof up better. 

I also agree that how you handle a dough can affect it's spring.  Essentially, too much handling equates to pressing the rim and that will also affect oven spring.  You may remember, I did a little experiment awhile back that show this. 

Another thing I've been playing with (thanks to Scott) is allowing the dough to proof up 2x plus for a better spring.  I believe you are already doing this.  If so you should see that dough that is used later in the day should have better oven spring than dough used first thing in the morning provided the dough doesn't sit out and is subjected to moisture lost. 

I'm also curious to where you think the bigger air bubbles are coming from?   Do you believe that to be a part of dough technique (trapping air when kneading) or the later stages of fermentation or a bit of both?

Chau

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #514 on: July 25, 2010, 01:24:54 AM »
Jackie Tran,

Thanks for saying it looks like I got some great oven spring in the BBQ grill set-up.  I appreciate your insight of what is going on with my dough.  I do remember your experiment on handling the dough and oven spring. 

I still havenít figured out if I get better oven spring later in the day.  My oven spring is more related to how long I let the dough warm-up and open the skin.  If it warms up too long then it gets hard to manage.  Even in the morning, there can be great oven spring.  I work in different temperatures each week, so I have to watch my dough balls, when they are left out on the bench to warm up. If I see they are starting to get too gassy, then I put them back into the pizza prep refrigerator, and use them when they are colder, again. This seems to work. There is never moisture loss in my dough balls, because I keep them in the plastic bags until I am ready to use them. Some weeks my temperatures at market can be 99 degrees F.  The last few weeks the temperature has been around 93 degrees because my oven is on all day and the outside temperatures have been hot.  We also have a lot of humidity in our area to deal with.

To answer your question about the bigger bubbles, I donít really understand that at this time, except when this dough is left thicker and more of a rim, then it seems to get better oven spring.  I mix the dough at market in my commercial mixer, and only mix until the dough looks smooth.  I donít under knead it.  I only cold ferment my dough for one day, so even if I use this dough in the morning or in the evening, in my opinion right now, oven spring has more to do with the handling or opening the skin.  My dough also has a poolish that is made on Friday, proofed in the Hatco Unit until it bubbles and then is left to cold ferment for 3 days, mixed into the final dough and left to cold ferment for one day.  Even when I use this same dough after it is frozen it almost acts the same way.  The pictures that had the good oven spring from above, were this same dough that had been frozen and the baked in the BBQ grill set-up.  At market I only bake this dough at 525 degrees F.

I have been studying this one dough formula for awhile and it is still a mystery to me in some ways. 

Norma
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 08:49:26 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #515 on: July 25, 2010, 06:20:08 PM »
Norma,

Your recent discussions with Jackie Chan prompted me to think about the types of factors that appear to govern or to be implicated in oven spring and, in general, an overall rise in a dough skin. I donít know that I can distinguish on a technical basis the difference between oven spring and an overall rise in a dough skin other than to note that oven spring tends to be more often associated and discussed in relation to the rim of a pizza.

These are the factors that come to mind that appear to be involved in oven spring or dough rise in general in respect of a typical home oven setting, although most of the factors apply to many other oven types also:

1. The type/brand of flour, including its protein content and gluten formation characteristics, and whether the flour is bromated or not.
2. The water content (hydration) of the dough.
3. The amount and type of yeast used (Note: Cookís Illustrated says that fresh yeast produces the most gas during fermentation).
4. Other ingredients added to the dough that can affect its volume expansion, including oil, vital wheat gluten (see, for example, http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/vital-wheat-gluten-16-oz) and dry milk powder (e.g., see http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-special-dry-milk-16-oz). (Note: There are other additives and conditioners that are used by professional/commercial bakers to accomplish similar functions but these are outside the purview of this list; also, salt and sugar in excess can negatively affect yeast performance).
5. Water quality (mainly mineral content/hardness).
6. Mixing and kneading and related methods (including autolyse) and their duration and dough preparation speeds, whether by machine or by hand, that can affect the viscosity and density of the dough, including the capacity of the dough to capture and retain gases of fermentation (for a discussion of these latter factors, see the section ďFermentation ControlĒ at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm).
7. The type of pizza stone/tiles/firebricks or other carrier used to bake the pizza, including pizza screen, pan or disk (perforated or nonperforated), and the material (including any coating) of such carrier.
8. The oven configuration, including the type of oven (e.g., electric or gas, and with or without a convection feature) and the oven rack position used during baking.
9. Other devices used in the oven during baking, such as secondary pizza stones/tiles/firebricks or metal pans/skillets or their equivalent.
10. Oven temperature as related to the temperature of the pizza stone or other carrier and any other devices under paragraph 9.
11. Fermentation condition of the dough at the time of use (e.g., from underfermented to overfermented/overproofed).
12. Dough temper factors, including temper time and temperature (this can be considered an extension of paragraph 11).
13. Dough shaping methods, including the way the rim is formed and gases are distributed in the skin, including to the rim.
14. Whether a formed skin is allowed to proof/rise before dressing and baking.
15. The size of the skin, its thickness, and the number, types and amounts of sauce, cheese and toppings.
16. The relationship and balance between dough pH and residual sugar at the time of baking (see the Calvel discussion at Reply 136 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg86732/topicseen.html#msg86732). (Note: This factor is likely to be influenced by whether a starter/preferment--natural or based on commercial yeast--is used.)
17. Environmental factors, such as altitude (this can require modifications to the dough formulation and bake times/temperatures).

Arguably, one can optimize the above factors in any given case, or, more likely, one might try to optimize a subset of the above factors based on the materials and equipment on hand, and make a sufficient number of doughs/pizzas under essentially identical conditions (or as similar as possible) to confirm the factors that produced the desired oven spring and related results. It would be nice to test each of the above factors one at a time, changing only one variable at a time, but that would be impractical in a nonscientific home setting that is subject to many variables. It would also consume an inordinate amount of time to conduct all the tests.

In your case with the Lehmann preferment dough, obviously not all of the above enumerated factors apply nor have you necessarily attempted to optimize those that did apply although what you have done strikes me as being quite normal and reasonable. However, while I believe that trying to optimize the factors that do apply is a reasonable thing to do, if I were to single out a few of the factors that I think are most dominant, I would pick oven temperature and, more particularly, an oven temperature that achieves a combination of top heat and bottom heat sufficient to create good oven spring but without burning anything. I believe you get that inherently at market with your commercial deck oven--with good heat retention characteristics of your oven stone and a small overhead space--and I believe you achieved similar conditions with your grill setup, with a small, rather confined space and sometimes at higher temperatures than you use at market.

Although you have noted the limitations of your home oven, I believe other members have achieved good oven spring in a home oven setting, as noted by the links referenced in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10122.msg88410.html#msg88410. Note, in particular, the long knead times that ThunderStik uses, without any apparent ill effects on oven spring. Obviously, other factors have to complement the oven conditions, such as having a properly prepared and managed dough (preferably using a high-protein flour and a water content conducive to ample steam creation during baking), but in your case you have demonstrated that you are able to manage the various factors involved and to achieve the proper balance between them to achieve very good end results.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 03:00:45 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #516 on: July 25, 2010, 09:02:39 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for going over all the factors that can be involved to produce oven spring for me and if Jackie Tran or others might want to read about them. I never knew that fresh yeast produces the most gas during fermentation.  I will have to do more experiments on that to see what kind of results I can achieve. 

It is interesting in the article that you reference above http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm  that, the smaller original quantity of yeast in the dough, the greater the percentage increase in cell numbers during the fermentation, with all other conditions being held constant, because then the competition for nutrients are far less.  Then each yeast cell has access or the opportunity for access to greater food supplies during fermentation.  I also see that acidification in dough fermentation produces acetic acid in amounts higher than the other organic acids and when combined with a poolish, the production of acetic acid is higher.  The longer maturation progresses and fermentaion is prolonged, the dough becomes richer in organic acids, and then this becomes evident as a lowering of the pH.  Temperature of the dough is an important factors as Calvel demonstrates in the graph.  The pH is  ultimately related to the level of residual sugars present in the dough before baking.  These residual sugars are the remainder of those that fed dough fermentation.  They fulfill important functions during the baking process.

In the fermentation control, Most of the desirable changes resulting from 'optimum' dough development, whatever the breadmaking or pizza making process, are related to the ability of the dough to retain gas bubbles (air) and permit the uniform expansion of the dough piece under the influence of carbon dioxide gas from yeast fermentation during proof and baking.

All these factors, plus so many more mentioned in this article are all interesting and I am going to have to study this more, to be able to understand all that goes into play, when trying to make the best dough I am able to, in different forumlas.

pH of dough and the remaining residual sugars present just before baking do determine the extent of oven spring during the first moments of baking.  I wonder if I use my pH meter to measure my different doughs that I try, if I will be able to find out for myself if the pH of dough does help me to have better oven spring?  I wonder if I can compare my preferment Lehmann dough and see if different times during the day or even in home use, with using the pH meter can tell me more about residual sugars present and seeing how that relates to my open spring and also use the pH meter to test all my doughs before baking.

I can also understand that I could optimize the factors you referenced to see how that would relate to all of this, but also could see that would really be time consuming. 

I remember ThunderStik fondly, but didnít remember how long he mixed his dough or at what hydration he made his doughs.  I can now see that he had great oven spring, using a long mix time and a lower hydration.  I had also wondered about mix times and hydration on how it all relates.  Bill did get great oven spring with lower hydration levels and longer mix times.  I always enjoyed his adventures and seeing his pies.  I hope someday, he comes back on the forum to share his results, if he is still making pizzas.  Bill did a lot of great experiments. I also forgot about him doing a long room fermented dough. His pizzas sure looked great!

I can see that having a properly prepared and managed dough is one of the most important things to have if you want oven spring.  I will stay on the journey.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #517 on: July 25, 2010, 09:36:08 PM »
Norma,

From time to time I have conducted experiments in my electric oven in which I removed the lowest oven rack, on which I would normally put my pizza stone (Cordierite), and I positioned the stone on some pieces of brick in order to support the stone just above the lower heating element. The thought was that the lower stone position would reach a higher temperature and result in the pizza baking faster and with more oven spring. That did not happen. Later, when I did some experimenting using the upper part of my oven with the pizza stone on a rack several inches below the upper heating element, which periodically preheated the stone, I got better oven spring. However, the bottom crust did not achieve the same degree of browning as when I put the stone close to the lower heating element on the pieces of brick. This combination of experiments led me to believe that you need good top and bottom heat to get the pizza to bake optimally and to get good oven spring. That is why I emphasized this point in my last post.

Also, recently, while I was in vacation, I made a couple of Lehmann NY style pizzas for my son and his family and a few guests. I made enough dough for two 13" pizzas. The two pizzas were in all respects prepared the same way. The first pizza was baked on a FibraMent stone. It took the pizza longer to bake than it would in my oven, resulting in a nice pizza but a bit too chewy and crispy. When I discovered that the oven (electric) had a convection mode, I switched to that and, after letting the oven get back to the right temperature, I baked the second pizza. That pizza had better oven spring than the first one and was preferred by everyone over the first pizza. I did not have a temperature gun, so there might have been other factors involved, but the difference was great enough to lead me to believe that maybe the combination of the right top heat and the right bottom heat was responsible for the improved oven spring. I'm sure I will test this thesis out more fully at some later date.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #518 on: July 25, 2010, 10:21:17 PM »
Peter,

I can see how your experiments lead you to the conclusions that you need a good top and bottom heat to bake pizzas optimally and get good oven spring. 

I can see while you were on vacation, that using the convection mode did help distribute the heat more evenly and resulted in a better pizza. Good to hear you used the convection mode and achieved a better pizza.  :) It will be interesting to see how you conduct those tests at a later date on distributing better heat more evenly.

I have a 1/4 size convection oven at market and have always wanted to test a pizza in there to see what the results would be.  I first need to get some kind of baking stone to fit that oven.  Maybe a stone will be a Christmas present. 

Did you ever think about some kind of BBQ grill set-up?  It is fairly easy to do and there you can get a lower head space for baking pizzas. In my opinion so far, this is something like my commercial oven and I can get better results than in my home oven.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #519 on: July 25, 2010, 10:25:39 PM »
Peter that is quite the list of variables affecting oven spring. I had started making a list some time ago but it was not as comprehensive as yours. I have tested a few of those factors and working on the rest. :)

I concur with your findings that an even top and bottom heat, better yet a higher top heat compare to bottom heat is a big factor in oven spring.  I noted this when I started baking in my modified primo ceramic oven and my MBE.  The home oven has a lot more space to heat and more room for the hot air to circulate, whereas in smaller ovens like modified grills the heat is more concentrated.

Chau


 

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