Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 136314 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #520 on: July 26, 2010, 10:29:46 AM »
Did you ever think about some kind of BBQ grill set-up?  It is fairly easy to do and there you can get a lower head space for baking pizzas. In my opinion so far, this is something like my commercial oven and I can get better results than in my home oven.

Norma,

I have never really had a strong urge (or even a weak one now that I think of it) to use or modify a BBQ unit to make pizza. I do have a BBQ unit but it is small and I use it about once every two years.

Peter


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #521 on: July 27, 2010, 11:23:55 PM »
Jackie Tran and anyone else that might be interested.  I did the experiment today using a lower and higher bake temperature with my same dough.  I also did a couple of more experiments with my regular preferment Lehmann dough.  The first  three pictures are from a frozen dough ball and this pie was made first thing in the morning before the oven was up to my regular temperature of 525-545 degrees F.  The temperature of this bake was 470 degrees F.

I made varies pies during the day and opened the dough in the same way. These bake temperatures were between 525-545 degrees F.  From these experiments there really isnít any difference in my oven and the lower bake temperatures in the amount of oven spring, in my opinion.  From morning until night time there doesnít appear to be any difference in oven spring.

Steve (Ev) and I did an experiment with a smaller dough ball and the first dough ball we used my normal bake temperatures.  Then we cranked up the oven until it was as high as it would go.  I had thought that the bottom of the pie would be finished before the top.  That is what happened.  The pie did bake faster, but burnt on the bottom.  This experiment was done in the early evening.

I really donít know, but I think my formula really isnít conductive to a high bake temperature.  The second pie was baked between 675 degrees F to 700 degrees F, depending on where the temperature was measured on the stone.  As can been seen, both pies had oven spring in using the small dough balls.

If there are any questions, just ask.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #522 on: July 27, 2010, 11:27:18 PM »
2 small dough balls and regular bake temperatures of 525-545 degrees F.

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #523 on: July 27, 2010, 11:28:45 PM »
continued- regular baked temperatures with small dough ball
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #524 on: July 27, 2010, 11:32:23 PM »
second small dough ball baked at higher temperatures of 675-700 degrees F.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #525 on: July 28, 2010, 12:08:09 AM »
Norma thx for doing the experiment. Looks like you got great oven spring despite the temp differences.  Where all the doughballs of similar size/weight and were they all stretched out to the same size?

I have done a similar experiment not long ago and got similar results.  I really didn't see a difference until I really thinned out the skins and it wasn't a significant difference at that. Now when I increased the hydration by 10 percentage points and baked at high temps I then saw a significant difference.

I was surprised that you didn't see any difference in ovenspring b/t the morning and evening pies. Did you noticed if the evening pie had more big voids?

Chau
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 12:09:48 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #526 on: July 28, 2010, 12:29:05 AM »
Jackie Tran,

Yes, there was good oven spring using a wide variety of temperatures.  The first 3 pictures that I used the low bake temperature, first thing in the morning was a my regular size dough ball and was opened to my regular thickness factor.

The other pictures were from two smaller dough balls that I used for this experiment.  I have other pictures from the higher temperature bake that I didnít post.  This dough formulation is 61 % hydration and the two small dough balls used in this bake were then left a little thicker for the experiment. 

There werenít any bigger voids in the evening.  From my first pies in the morning until evening, there wasnít any significant difference in oven spring.  My dough balls are kept in a low temperature deli case or pizza prep refrigerator, so I donít know if that makes any difference or not, but it could. 

I am still wondering if oven spring is related to the dough formula.  I think how this dough is managed and then baked, there isnít much difference, because all variables are kept about the same.  I also am thinking about how the dough is opened can then affect oven spring.  I will have to do some more experiments on that. These are just my opinions and thoughts..

Norma
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 12:32:58 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #527 on: July 28, 2010, 06:51:01 AM »
Norma, the 3rd pic has a very nice looking crumb. I'm surprised it is thicker b/c it looks thinner to me but I know pics can be deceiving.  Was the crumb texture on that one soft? Not dry at all correct?

Norma no worries if anyone agrees or disagrees with your findings. You are doing the experiments and sharing your findings so that in itself is commendable. I have very little pizza making experience/knowledge myself so I don't always trust my own ideas and opinions. Since I'm always learning I have to be okay with being wrong in order to progress. Im saying this to say I'm not an authority on anything even though I may talk like I am at times. :)

You could definitely be right about it being the particular formula since there are so many factors (as Peter noted earlier) that can affect oven spring. Either way it sounds like you have a winning formula and method. The dough sounds very versatile and can bake up consistently all day.   That's a real plus for a commercial setting I'm sure.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 07:01:18 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #528 on: July 28, 2010, 07:09:59 AM »
Jackie Tran,

Thanks for saying the 3rd picture has a nice looking crumb.  :) The crumb texture was soft on that one.  It wasnít dry at all. Steve and I were discussing how we both like the little dough ball that was left a little thicker in the regular bake temperatures. I think I am going to try using more dough and let the skin a little thicker next week, for all my pizzas. I am going to post pictures of all three doughs opened up in a few minutes.  You can then see what the dough skins looked like. 

I think every oven or oven set-up bakes differently, but that is just my opinion from watching in my home oven, BBQ grill set-up and my oven at market.  I really donít have that much pizza making knowledge either and that is why I have been just watching how this one dough formula behaves in different oven set-ups and different bake temperatures.  I also watch how this one dough formula behaves in different ambient temperatures, warm-ups times and opening of the skin techniques.

This dough is very versatile for me and I really like it.

Thanks for your comments,

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #529 on: July 28, 2010, 07:14:55 AM »
This is a video of my small market stand (8'x13") taken when I was waiting for my oven to warm-up, taken yesterday, in the morning, if anyone is interested in watching it.



1st picture of the first regular bake of this frozen dough, regular 16" size, skin opened to regular thickness factor, baked at lower than my normal baking temperature, shown in the pictures above. This was taken first thing in the morning.

2nd picture, Regular baking temperature of my oven, 1st small dough ball, stretched into a skin, let a little thicker than my normal dough.  This was taken in the early evening.

3rd picture, High baking temperature of second dough ball, opened into a skin, let a little thicker than my normal dough.  This was taken early in the evening, also.

Other pictures of pizza and rim baked at the higher than my normal baking temperatures.  As can be seen my formula doesnít work well with high bake temperatures, because the bottom will get burnt.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #530 on: July 28, 2010, 07:19:44 AM »
pictures of second small dough ball baked into a pizza, rim, and burnt bottom.  This was the high bake temperature.

Norma

« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 07:23:41 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #531 on: July 28, 2010, 07:33:14 AM »
Norma, I loved seeing a video of your market set up.  It seems like a very efficient use of space.  Thanks for posting the dough at different times in the day.  It does look like it changes a bit in characteristics but it could be b/c you didn't stretch them out as much.  Also looks like there is lacking of the big voids prebake as you leave the dough later into the day. ??? If you could keep an eye on that in the future and let me know if this is a consistent or just a singular phenomenon I would appreciate that. 

The dough in the bags looks very soft, moist, supple, etc to me.  It looks good.  I wonder how much of that has to do with having a commercial mixer vs the particular formula.   I'm thinking a mixer of some sorts is finally on my list next. 

Also I was thinking the that the temp differences may not have as much an effect on oven spring as does having an even top and bottom heat.  It may be that having a good oven can mitigate some of the differences of having different temp bakes.  Again, I only noted small spring differences when the skins were stretched really thin. 

Norma I just saw the high temp bake from your latest post and comparing it to the low temp bake I think I see more big voids in the crumb.  It does look like better oven spring but that could be due to the increase thickness factor as well.  Either way all the pies do look good. 

Norma, I'm gonna have to go back and write down the recipe you used and your methods for future testing.   :chef:  Thanks again for doing this.

Cheers,
Chau
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 07:35:26 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #532 on: July 28, 2010, 08:03:26 AM »
Jackie Tran,

Thanks you for saying you enjoyed watching the video of my little market stand.  It took awhile for me to figure out how all that stuff was going to fit into such a small place.   :-D

My dough doesnít change much, during the day and evening, but it I can see in the evening it has fermented a little more.

If you want me to next week, I will take some pictures during different times in the day of my finished pizzas, rims and skins.

This dough is very soft and moist.  crazybob and his wife (from the drive-in thread), were at market yesterday and they also played with this dough.  I posted a picture of the finished pie, with their pictures, when Steve and I made them a pie.  That was in the afternoon. If you want to see how that pie looked, go on crazybobís Drive-In Theatre thread.

I also am wondering how much having about the same even top and bottom temperatures does then affect the oven spring.  I also think the formula and opening of the skin techinques, has a lot to do with oven spring, but that is just my opinion for right now.  I will keep watching all of this.  ::)

I donít really think there were more voids in the higher bake temperatures.  They appeared to be about the same to me. 

In my opinion a commercial mixer does help to mix the dough, but I havenít tried all kinds of commercial mixers, so I am not an expert on that.  I usually just mix my dough until it looks smooth, which is about 4 minutes.  I have tried longer mix times and my dough doesnít seem affected by the longer mix times. 

If you want the links to one dough or five dough balls to test, let me know.  I will provide the links for you.

I was happy to do these experiments.  It has helped me understand this dough more.  ;D

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #533 on: July 28, 2010, 12:39:23 PM »
Norma,

Based on the results of your recent experiments, it appears that your operation at market has a fairly wide range of acceptable tolerances. By that, I mean that so long as you keep your oven temperature in the range of about 470 degrees F to 545 degrees F, you appear to be able to achieve comparable results, including oven spring, whether you use defrosted frozen dough, your regular dough, and with different pizza sizes and thickness factors. It is only when you reach for considerably higher oven temperatures that results can suffer (e.g., a burned bottom crust in your case). I suspect that JT is correct that if you were to use a significantly higher hydration you might get comparable results using the higher oven temperatures. However, that would be at the risk of a faster fermentation cycle, which might upset your normal timetable and scheduling, and possible extensibility issues. Moreover, you would perhaps have to reformulate your dough formulation (which means more messy math), plus possibly conduct a fair amount of experimentation in order to achieve the proper balance between the final dough and the way it works in your oven. I am not sure that that is worth the effort but in the final analysis that would be your call.

You are in a sense correct when you say that you think that it is your dough formulation that is responsible for getting good oven spring, along with the way you open up the dough balls and form the skins. However, a dough formulation is only a sum of its parts, many of which can be implicated individually or collectively in oven spring. For example, when I look at what you have done, I see the following. First, you are using a high-gluten flour and a hydration that is commensurate with the rated absorption value for the flour and your ability to work with the dough without experiencing extensibility problems. Second, you are using a commercial mixer and slightly undermixing the dough and achieving a high-quality, robust dough characterized by good gluten development and the capacity to capture and retain the gases of fermentation. No doubt you are getting a better dough than most of us can make in a home setting using a basic KitchenAid stand mixer. So the value of a commercial mixer is not to be minimized. Third, you have managed to achieve a room-temperature prefermentation/cold fermentation protocol, with a proper balance between the use of the formula yeast, that fits your one-day-a-week market operation (a few days counting the preferment/fermentation operations) while achieving a proper balance between dough pH and residual sugar (the Calvel requirement). Fourth, you have learned how to temper the dough balls to suit your varying market ambient conditions and then open them and form skins without losing fermentation gases and while getting good rim size. I believe the above set of conditions is conducive to achieving good results in your oven at market and, so long as you repeat the entire sequence consistently from week to week, and operate within the workable range of oven temperatures, you should get fairly consistent overall results.

Since I have mentioned the role that I think ovens and oven temperatures play in oven spring, I think a useful test to determine the impact of the oven in your case would be to bake two essentially identical pizzas, one using your commercial oven at market and one using your home oven, using the same dough in each instance as you use at market. Then report back on the results, including the extent and nature of the oven spring. If you get the same or comparable results and oven spring in your home oven, then that would tell us that the dough formulation and/or dough making/management factors are likely responsible for the oven spring in your case. I am sure that there are other experiments that could be conducted to test other variables (but one at a time) in the two settings.

Peter


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #534 on: July 28, 2010, 01:00:01 PM »
crazybob and his wife (from the drive-in thread), were at market yesterday and they also played with this dough.  I posted a picture of the finished pie, with their pictures, when Steve and I made them a pie.  That was in the afternoon. If you want to see how that pie looked, go on crazybobís Drive-In Theatre thread.

Norma,

As I see it, there are three degrees of separation between you, crazybob and Steve (Ev). And the common denominator is Tom Lehmann. You are using a modified preferment version of Tom's NY style dough formulation, crazybob has been using the Lehmann dough calculating tool to make a basic Lehmann NY style dough (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10941.msg99674.html#msg99674), and the dough that Steve has been using to make Greek pizzas is a modification of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. I suppose I could consider Steve Z, the Administrator of our forum, and myself as two other degrees of separation, since Steve Z asked Tom Lehmann for permission to use his NY style dough formulation and Steve Z asked me to help modify that formulation for use in a home environment. Maybe Evelyne Slomon sits at the top of the heap since she allegedly helped develop the "Lehmann" NY style dough formulation for Tom. So, the totem pole is Evelyne, Tom, Steve Z, me, you, crazybob and Steve (Ev)  :-D.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #535 on: July 28, 2010, 01:54:23 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for going over all of this and commenting that Jackie Tran could be right about using a higher hydration in trying baking the pizza at higher temperatures.  I am satisfied how this dough performs at the lower bake temperatures and I surely wouldnít want to go about reformulating another higher hydration for this dough.  I also then would use more propane in higher bake temperatures.  I try to keep my costs the least I can at market, for my utility bills.  That is one of the reasons I was searching for a dough that could be made with the limited storage space I have. I had enjoyed the taste of the crusts of longer fermentations, but then would have to keep my pizza prep refrigerator on more, in addition to my deli case.  I always turn my water heater off, when I leave market.  The only appliance that stays on all week, is the deli case. 

I can understand that the commercial mixer does help me to make better dough.  I didnít think about balancing the proper way as the Calvel requirement, but can see this has been achieved with a balance between dough pH and residual sugar.  I guess it was just studying this dough and watching how it behaves, is what has lead me in the right direction. 

I have seen how this same dough, can get good oven spring and even a better taste to the crust, when baking in my BBQ grill set-up.  I still donít understand why the crust tastes better in the BBQ grill set-up, but will keep studying what happens there.

I also think your idea is good about using this same dough in my home oven and seeing what kind of results I can achieve there.  Since my home oven doesnít go very high, and there is much more head space, that experiment would be interesting.  I will do that experiment and see if it is the dough formulation and dough handling factors that do help make better oven spring.  In the next few days I will take a frozen dough ball and test it in my home oven.

I had wanted to do another experiment yesterday, but didnít think I would have the time.  I had wanted to take some of my firebricks to market and use them in my 1/4 size convection oven, to see what kind of results could be achieved with them, using the same dough. That experiment might be for next week, if I find the time.

I was just going to post this when I saw you posted again, so I will go on from here.

LOL, it funny to hear you state how we all stand in the totem pole.  I guess we all owe Evelyne Slomon and Tom Lehmann a standing ovation for getting us all to where we are today.  Thanks Evelyne and Tom. The Chefs Hat is off to both of you and the numerous people on this forum that have worked on the Lehmann dough and a big thanks to Steve Z that started this forum.  :chef: :chef: :chef:

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #536 on: July 28, 2010, 02:11:53 PM »
I have seen how this same dough, can get good oven spring and even a better taste to the crust, when baking in my BBQ grill set-up.  I still donít understand why the crust tastes better in the BBQ grill set-up, but will keep studying what happens there.

Norma,

Since the byproducts of fermentation should be the same in both cases, I would guess that the better crust flavors when using your BBQ unit come from using a smaller size pizza than you use at market, in a smaller, more confined space, coupled with higher bake temperatures in some cases. That combination is likely to lead to increased caramelization of natural residual sugars in the dough, increased Maillard reactions, and increased denaturing of the protein in the dough. There are literally hundreds of chemical interaction in a baking pizza dough, many, if not most, of which are not fully understood. Many of these interactions affect the flavor and aroma of the finished crust.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #537 on: July 28, 2010, 02:35:57 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for explaining reasons why my BBQ grill set-up could give the crust better flavors.  I can understand now, that the increased caramelization of natural residual sugars in the dough (Maillard reactions) and also the increased denaturing of the protein of the dough could give me better crust flavors.  I can see how there are hundreds chemical interactions in a dough, and know I wonít ever be able to understand them all. It is interesting how all these interactions can affect a pizza dough.

I used the same size dough balls in my experiment yesterday and was just wondering why the tastes of the crusts were different.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #538 on: July 30, 2010, 04:41:51 PM »
Norma, I would like to see pics of the dough and finished pies throughout the day if it's not too much trouble.   I also would like to try your formula and method in the next week or so.  I'll comb through this thread for the forumla and method. 

Thanks,
Chau

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #539 on: July 30, 2010, 06:20:03 PM »
Jackie Tran,

I will take pictures of the dough and pies though out the day on Tuesday. Do you have anything else you want me to try, other than turning up my oven again? That one pie from turning up the oven did ruin 2 other pies, because then I had problems getting my oven down to normal bake temperatures.  Do you want me to explain what to do with this formula, if you want to give it a try? This is the formula Peter set-forth for one dough ball at reply #225  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

This is also a lower hydration dough than you are used to working with.  It is 61% hydration and I use KASL flour.

The next step up would be five dough balls.

Norma
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