Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 156218 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #675 on: December 08, 2010, 01:19:33 PM »
Norma,

Do my eyes deceive me or do those pizzas look to have more top crust coloration than the Lehmann counterparts using natural leavening systems?

Peter


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #676 on: December 08, 2010, 01:55:05 PM »
Norma,

Do my eyes deceive me or do those pizzas look to have more top crust coloration than the Lehmann counterparts using natural leavening systems?

Peter

Peter,

Your eyes don't deceive you.  These two pizzas even were from frozen doughs.  These two pizzas were baked at about 566 degrees F.  The Sicilian pizza was baked in a deep-dish pan on a screen in my top oven and the regular NY style was baked on the stone, in the bottom oven.  I still can't figure out why even this dough seems to brown better fresh or frozen.  Some day I might need to do a test with Kyrol flour with a natural leavening system, to see if it is my oven, flour, or lack of residual sugar that is giving me problems in browning. When I was trying the clone Mack's dough, there wasn't any problems with browning of the crust, in my deck oven.  When I first starting making pizzas with the regular Lehmann dough, with Pillsbury Balancer, All Trumps, and Kyrol, I didn't have any browning issues.  I even had my oven at different temperatures when using bromated flours.

I have some bromated flour at home.  Do you think for my next test with a natural leavening system I should use the bromated flour to see what happens?

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #677 on: December 08, 2010, 03:30:41 PM »
I have some bromated flour at home.  Do you think for my next test with a natural leavening system I should use the bromated flour to see what happens?

Norma,

Those are some interesting comparisons.

Using a naturally leavened dough with another high-gluten flour such as the Kyrol might make sense but mainly to see if it is your KASL that is impeding the crust coloration in a natural leaven application. To the best of my knowledge, the bromated part shouldn't have any effect on the crust color. Of course, you have no choice on that. It goes with the Kyrol if that is the flour you decide to use.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #678 on: December 08, 2010, 06:10:29 PM »
Peter,

A few weeks ago when I went to order flour from my supplier C.O. Nolt and Sons, Inc. and they were out of KASL.  That isnít normal, but I guess they sold more than they thought they would. I had asked them what comparable flour they had that wasnít bromated, but they didnít have any they could substitute for me, until they would get some more KASL the next week.  The All Trumps 50 lb. bag was 19.99 and the Kyrol flour was even higher.   I wasnít sure if I had enough flour, until the following week, so I stopped in at the Restaurant Store to see what they carried.  They had 104-GIGANTIC in 50 lb. bags. http://www.therestaurantstore.com/High-Gluten-Flour-50-lb-/104GIGANTIC.html  I asked who makes the Gigantic flour and the employee told me Pillsbury.  I donít know if that is true or not, but I purchased one bag for 12.99, the sale price.  I didnít need the flour and it is now sitting in my van.  I was going to take it back, but might do some experiments with it.  The employee told me many pizza shops in my area purchase the Gigantic flour and it is bromated.

I might make one Preferment Lehmann dough ball and also a couple of dough balls that I have been trying with the natural leavening systems.  I really donít have any problems with trying out bromated flour to see what would happen.  I can then either bag up the leftover flour and try to sell it or give some away.  Did you ever hear of Gigantic flour?  Do you think if I do these experiments that it might tell me quicker what my problems are, with browning issues?  I did use a lower bake temperature (455 degrees F) for my milk kefir Lehmann dough yesterday and that didnít seem to resolve the issue of browning all together.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #679 on: December 08, 2010, 09:26:51 PM »
Did you ever hear of Gigantic flour?  Do you think if I do these experiments that it might tell me quicker what my problems are, with browning issues?  I did use a lower bake temperature (455 degrees F) for my milk kefir Lehmann dough yesterday and that didnít seem to resolve the issue of browning all together.

Norma,

I have heard of the Gigantic flour but I believe it is an ADM product, as noted at http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/Flour/USWheat/Pages/Gigantic.aspx.

I would be surprised if the KASL flour you have been using was the cause of the reduced top crust browning. The problem has been most pronounced when using a natural leavening system. When you have used the commercially-leavened Lehmann poolish preferment with your KASL flour, you have not had the problem, at least not to the same degree. You could try another high-gluten flour to see if it alleviates the problem, but I have my doubts about that happening. From the experiments you have conducted and reported on to date at the other threads, the coloration problem seems to be isolated to the doughs using natural leavening systems. If that is correct, and the problem is not really oven related, you are left with the usual measures such as using sugar or honey or some other additive. Beyond that, it seems to me that the fermentation method and protocol may need to be altered.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #680 on: December 08, 2010, 10:21:06 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for finding the Gigantic flour and who it is manufactured by. 

I donít really know if the KASL flour does cause a some browning issue, but have wondered about that for awhile, since switching from bromated flour.  This is where I switched to KASL flour http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9551.msg82833.html#msg82833 My crust and pizzas look a lot different now, but there was also browning issues back then. If I go back to my earliest posts on the forum, even when using bromated flours, my crusts looked anemic then, too, but I donít think I knew much about anything back then. I think now my oven temperatures were too low or I was taking the pies out too quick. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg76790.html#msg76790  What a difference a little over a year makes.  :-D

Your are right about the browning issues being more pronounced when using a natural leavening system.  I will think over the fermentation protocol for my natural leavening doughs. I have no idea where to go from here with them, but will post on my other threads if I can think of anything to try. I think I might give the naturally leavened doughs a break for a couple of weeks.

Thanks for your help,

Norma
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 11:27:36 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #681 on: December 15, 2010, 07:24:40 AM »
Picture of one pie from market yesterday and my great-granddaughter at market yesterday with her chef's hat on and holding Elmo.  My great-granddaughter now is almost one year old and really likes Pizza Singing Elmo.  What a difference a year makes.  A year ago, I wasn't making this preferment Lehmann dough and didn't even have a great-granddaughter that was born.  Maybe someday she will be my pizza making buddy.  :)

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #682 on: December 15, 2010, 01:54:02 PM »
Norma
I think the Sicilian pizza looked amazing....it reminded me of the pizzas my mom would make at home...she would simply make a bread dough, spread it in a cookie sheet type pan and top with tomato sauce flavored with anchovy and garlic.  Didn't even use cheese...but you got my mouth watering!!

John

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #683 on: December 15, 2010, 02:51:04 PM »
Norma
I think the Sicilian pizza looked amazing....it reminded me of the pizzas my mom would make at home...she would simply make a bread dough, spread it in a cookie sheet type pan and top with tomato sauce flavored with anchovy and garlic.  Didn't even use cheese...but you got my mouth watering!!

John

John,

Thanks for saying the Sicilian pizza looks amazing.  Your mom's Sicilian sounds great, too!  :)  It is amazing how many things can be made out of pizza dough.

Norma

« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 10:15:13 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #684 on: December 16, 2010, 05:45:01 PM »
I tried a little experiment with a few doughs balls that I had leftover from market Tuesday.  Usually I freeze them at the end of the day in my freezer.  This time I decided to see what would happen to them if I left a few in my van for a couple of days before freezing.  It is very cold outside, but the dough balls didnít freeze while in the van.  I took them out of the van today and now they are placed in the freezer.  I did take the dough balls along on errands today and yesterday.  The van was warm then.  I will bake these dough balls into pizzas Tuesday.

Yes, that is snow in the picture.  We are starting to get snow again! lol

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 05:47:20 PM by norma427 »
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Offline jever4321

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #685 on: December 16, 2010, 09:16:15 PM »
Thanks for the pictures Norma. Your Great-Grand daughter is adorable, and you pizza pictures always inspire me. Keep it up.
-Jay

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #686 on: December 16, 2010, 10:21:15 PM »
Thanks for the pictures Norma. Your Great-Grand daughter is adorable, and you pizza pictures always inspire me. Keep it up.

jever4321,

Glad you like the pictures and thanks for saying my great-granddaughter is adorable.  The preferment Lehmann dough is very easy to work with and I can make many things in addition to pizza with it.

Norma
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Offline steelsieve

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #687 on: December 19, 2010, 01:50:28 PM »
Norma, your pizzas look amazing.  Your persistence is truly inspiring.  Just think, someday your great granddaughter might even make her own pizzas using the recipes and wisdom you'll share with her.  My grandmother and great aunt made legendary Sicilian pies but they never measured a thing and never wrote anything down, unfortunately for me.  Still, any time I make pizza I think of them, and that lasts forever.   :)

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #688 on: December 19, 2010, 02:04:05 PM »
That is a beautiful pie.  Just the right amount of everything.

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #689 on: December 19, 2010, 06:47:09 PM »
Norma, your pizzas look amazing.  Your persistence is truly inspiring.  Just think, someday your great granddaughter might even make her own pizzas using the recipes and wisdom you'll share with her.  My grandmother and great aunt made legendary Sicilian pies but they never measured a thing and never wrote anything down, unfortunately for me.  Still, any time I make pizza I think of them, and that lasts forever.   :)

steelsieve,

Thanks for saying my pizzas look amazing.  :)  I hope someday my great-granddaughter will want to help make pizzas. 

Sorry to hear your grandmother and great aunt never wrote anything done about the Sicilian pies they made.  It is nice when you make pizza you think of them.  They would be proud of you.  :)

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #690 on: December 19, 2010, 06:48:42 PM »
That is a beautiful pie.  Just the right amount of everything.

Tscarborough,

Thanks for your kind words.  You pizzas are really looking great, too!  ;D

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #691 on: December 22, 2010, 07:36:35 PM »
In my post at Reply 684 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg120578.html#msg120578 I was trying an experiment with a few dough balls.

These are the results from that experiment I did with three leftover dough balls from last week. I have included some of the pizzas I made yesterday, from morning to evening, in with the experimental dough balls, that were turned into pizzas.  I wonder if anyone can spot the pizzas made from the experimental dough balls.  ::)

Even my regular pizzas when using the preferment Lehmann dough can look quite different, when using the dough though out the day at market.  I still think every pizza has a unique fingerprint.

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 07:58:52 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #692 on: December 22, 2010, 07:39:39 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #693 on: December 22, 2010, 07:41:31 PM »
Even one pizza Steve and I burnt while talking to others and talking about making pizza.  We aren't perfect either, in our pizza making skills.   :-D

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #694 on: January 05, 2011, 08:16:29 AM »
scott123 started a thread about Undercrust Bubbles at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12674.msg122261.html#msg122261

I sure canít explain how undercrust bubbles form, but when making different pizza at market yesterday did get some of these undercrust bubbles.  I didnít take pictures of all the pies with undercrust bubbles, but most of the pies yesterday had some.  Some of these pictures arenít the best, because I needed to move the pepperoni that slid, while putting the pizza in the oven, but I took the pictures before I moved the pepperoni.  These doughs balls for these pizzas were warmed-up, so I have no idea why some of these bubbles formed.  I guess it will remain a mystery why different things happen to the same dough that is used week after week.  The doughs for these pizzas opened up the same and didnít feel any different than other dough balls and all of these pies were baked in the same temperature oven.  Some of these pies were baked in the morning and some later in the day.

Pictures below

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #695 on: January 05, 2011, 04:09:10 PM »
great looking pie norma, you know how to do great things and wonderfull pies.

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #696 on: January 05, 2011, 04:22:37 PM »
great looking pie norma, you know how to do great things and wonderfull pies.

Michael,

Thanks for your kind words.  :)  I have been working with the same formula for almost a year.  I still have have mysteries about this dough, even though I make it the same every week. 

Norma
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Offline briterian

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #697 on: January 10, 2011, 05:42:14 PM »
Hi Norma,
Are you able to post your final recipe you are using.  This forum has gotten so big now. Maybe we should post it on the 'Pizza Recipe' Section of the site now that it's so popular!   I was curious if you are still adding diastatic malt added to your dough.

Thanks,
Brian

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #698 on: January 10, 2011, 07:35:46 PM »
Hi Norma,
Are you able to post your final recipe you are using.  This forum has gotten so big now. Maybe we should post it on the 'Pizza Recipe' Section of the site now that it's so popular!   I was curious if you are still adding diastatic malt added to your dough.

Thanks,
Brian


Brian,

I am still using my same formula that Peter set-forth at Reply 225.  If you want to see the formula for one dough ball it is. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

If you want to see the formula for 5 dough balls, the formula is at Reply 149 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687

The only thing I changed in the last about 7 weeks, is I am adding more water to my final dough for bigger batches than 5 dough balls. I have found I like a dough with a higher hydration. I have also increased the Thickness Factor, because I now like a pizza that is thicker than the original formula.  When I scale each dough ball, now they weigh, 1.195 lbs. 

Since this formula was figured out with paper and pencil by Peter, it canít be scaled up or down in the amount of dough balls to be used or the dough calculation tools canít be used to adjust the thickness factor or dough balls.  I am not even sure what hydration I am using now, but the 61% hydration does also work well, in the original formula set-forth above.

I am not using any diastatic malt to this formula.  If you have any more questions, just ask.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 07:42:48 PM by norma427 »
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Offline briterian

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #699 on: January 11, 2011, 08:25:13 AM »
Thanks Norma,
Do you know what the malt powder was trying to achieve?
I am looking to get back into this recipe.   I am looking to reduce the puffiness a bit and go with more of a traditional NYC style that has a smaller cornicone and was wondering if you thought this should be achieved by just removing the 2nd stage yeast altogether or just reducing it a bit.  I also have a lot of King Arthur italian flour (their version of a 00) and I am looking to use this receipe with that type of flour knowing I will need to adjust the water amounts to balance it's lower protein levels.


 

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