Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 141247 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #720 on: January 14, 2011, 08:50:59 PM »
end of pictures

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #721 on: January 15, 2011, 09:44:20 AM »
Some things I learn from these recent experiments with the poolish from the Lehmann dough were.

1.  A dough can be made with varying amounts of ingredients added to a poolish and still make a successful pizza. I didnít use the dough tools for this pizza. For the lightest pizza I made and the first one in the pictures I had posted in my last post, I used a regular amount of poolish (for one preferment Lehmann dough ball), added IDY, salt, dairy whey, oil and Farine Ganoro flour. This dough was a high hydration dough and needed many stretch and folds while it was room temperature fermenting and cold fermenting to make it into a useable dough ball. 

2.  The poolish pizza, was 792 grams of poolish and had added 150 grams flour, salt, dairy whey, and oil.  That pizza dough was the most sticky dough I have ever worked with.  It was almost like a blob.  I also did many stretch and folds on that dough, but it didnít come together like the other doughs. It kept wanting to turn more or less liquid and was really hard not for it to stick to the wooden peel.  I did use bench flour to be able to form the dough, but it also wanted to keep sticking to the table.  I didnít think that amount of poolish would have been able to make a pizza, but it did.

3. The third pizza, I used Ceresota flour, which is a lower strength flour, to see if I could develop enough gluten to have some rise in the pizza.  By mixing for longer periods of time and doing more stretch and folds that pizza also did have some rise in the pizza and did finally form more gluten after cold fermentation. This pizza had much different results than when I used different flour I had used in the same formula before.

4. The preferment Lehmann dough poolish can be used after 5 days of cold fermentation to add to dough of pizzas.

These are some of the things I learned from these experiments.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #722 on: January 21, 2011, 08:22:43 AM »
The January 2011 Monthly Challenge is ďNew to YouĒ.  I used a small preferment Lehmann frozen dough ball to make a taco pizza that was baked on an upside down steel pan for this challenge. This is the link at Reply 15 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12662.msg123240.html#msg123240

On Slice, posted by Maggie Hoffman this weekís My Pie Monday was ďEverything But The Kitchen SinkĒ

The challenge taco and steel upside down pan pizza was included in with the other ďEverything But The Kitchen SinkĒ pizzas. http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/01/my-pie-monday-what-to-do-with-leftovers-homemade-pizza-20110117-slideshow.html#show-133650
Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 10:59:09 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #723 on: January 21, 2011, 08:32:18 AM »
pictures

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« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 10:56:24 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #724 on: January 21, 2011, 08:55:40 AM »
pictures

Norma
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 10:58:14 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #725 on: January 22, 2011, 02:49:07 PM »
The preferment Lehmann dough was made with Better for Bread Flour yesterday. I baked the pizza today. I also decided to use the Better for Bread flour since Brian posted about using winter wheat flour at  Reply 49 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.msg123800.html#msg123800  I mixed the amount of poolish for one dough ball which was referenced at Reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226  The only things different that I did was, I used a smaller amount of IDY in the poolish and a lower amount of IDY in the final dough and also added more water (121 grams) and a little more salt (6grams) to the final dough.  I did use a autolyse in the dough of 25 miniutes, before I added the salt and then oil.  I stretched and folded the dough ball two times after the final dough mix. The dough ball was left out at room temperature for 2 hrs. before cold fermenting overnight.  The dough ball was removed from the refrigerator this morning and stretch and folded 3 more times and left to room temperature ferment for 6 hrs.  The dough ball did get many bubbles in the dough ball.  The final dough temperature was 77.3 degrees F.  The pH of the final dough was 5.97.  The pH of the dough ball right before the bake was 5.83.  The dough was very soft and easy to open.

The pizza was baked on my pizza stone at around 500 degrees F.  The pizza was dressed with my regular pizza sauce, two kinds of mozzarella blended and pepperoni.

Although this pizza didnít have the airy crust I usually get, the taste of the crust was more tender and did taste much better than using KASL, in my opinion.  The crust is also more crunchy than when using KASL.  Even at my lower bake temperature in my home oven, this pizza did turn out much better. 

Thanks Brian (sfspanky) for telling me about trying Better for Bread flour in a poolish dough.  :)

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #726 on: January 22, 2011, 02:52:36 PM »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #727 on: January 22, 2011, 02:55:07 PM »
end of pictures

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #728 on: January 22, 2011, 03:42:17 PM »
Norma,

Do you plan to try the Better for Bread flour in lieu of the KASL for your preferment Lehmann dough at market? I counted about a dozen changes to your regular preferment Lehmann dough and management for your home test using the Better for Bread flour. It seems to me that it is possible that those changes could have contributed to the final taste independently, or possibly in concert with, the flour itself. Using the Better for Bread flour instead of the KASL and using your regular methods at market would seem to be a better test to determine the impact of the Better for Bread flour.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #729 on: January 22, 2011, 05:53:14 PM »
Norma,

Do you plan to try the Better for Bread flour in lieu of the KASL for your preferment Lehmann dough at market? I counted about a dozen changes to your regular preferment Lehmann dough and management for your home test using the Better for Bread flour. It seems to me that it is possible that those changes could have contributed to the final taste independently, or possibly in concert with, the flour itself. Using the Better for Bread flour instead of the KASL and using your regular methods at market would seem to be a better test to determine the impact of the Better for Bread flour.

Peter

Peter,

I do plan on trying the Better for Bread flour in a test dough for market.  I would have waited until Monday to make a test dough, but it might snow again in our area Tuesday and I already have two test doughs frozen and didnít even make a milk keifr dough with the added dairy whey because I am not sure if I will be going to market.  I was going to try and make the poolish Monday and incorporate it into the final dough the same day using the methods like the Hatco Unit.  I wanted to see if a Better for Bread dough can be made one day and cold fermented for one day to use at market Tuesday. 

Do you really think the changes I did make to the preferment Lehmann dough really contributed that much to my final taste and look of the crust?  I do add more water to my preferment Lehmann dough at market, but donít do a autolyse.  I also only made the poolish yesterday morning for the Better for Bread dough and let the poolish rise in my home oven with a light on, before I made the final dough.  I didnít think the small amount of extra salt I added would have changed the dough too much.  I know one variable can change a dough, but I thought these small changes wouldnít have contributed that much.  I also would have thought that the poolish I usually make for the Lehmann dough would also strengthen the dough more because it is cold fermented for more days than I did for the Better for Bread dough. 

What I didnít understand about the Better for Bread dough was although the dough ball and opened skin did have many bubbles, the baked pizza didnít have the rise in the rim the way my preferment Lehmann dough does at home or market.  That still has me puzzled.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #730 on: January 22, 2011, 06:42:55 PM »
Norma,

As you know, I am a stickler on the technical aspects of pizza dough making and do not ordinarily subscribe to making multiple changes at one time, even if I think that the changes are mutually independent or mutually exclusive. Apparently Brian is of the same school, as he recently noted in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12782.msg123498/topicseen.html#msg123498 where he said: Change one thing at a time. Every action has a reaction.

I perhaps could take each change you made and independently trace its effects back to the final results. But, apart from the time that it would take to do that properly, there are combinations of effects that I perhaps cannot even divine, much less be able to explain them. In your case, another way to do a proper comparison with your preferment Lehmann dough with the KASL in your home oven environment is to repeat your latest experiment but use the KASL instead of the Better for Bread flour. That would be the only change (with maybe a small hydration change).

With respect to the reduced rim size you experienced with the Better for Bread flour, one possibility is that your KASL, with its higher protein content, develops more gluten and, as a result, better captures and retains the gases of fermentation, leading to increased oven spring. However, with all the changes you made, it is possible that those changes were also contributors to the reduced rim size.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #731 on: January 22, 2011, 07:38:36 PM »
Norma,

As you know, I am a stickler on the technical aspects of pizza dough making and do not ordinarily subscribe to making multiple changes at one time, even if I think that the changes are mutually independent or mutually exclusive. Apparently Brian is of the same school, as he recently noted in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12782.msg123498/topicseen.html#msg123498 where he said: Change one thing at a time. Every action has a reaction.

I perhaps could take each change you made and independently trace its effects back to the final results. But, apart from the time that it would take to do that properly, there are combinations of effects that I perhaps cannot even divine, much less be able to explain them. In your case, another way to do a proper comparison with your preferment Lehmann dough with the KASL in your home oven environment is to repeat your latest experiment but use the KASL instead of the Better for Bread flour. That would be the only change (with maybe a small hydration change).

With respect to the reduced rim size you experienced with the Better for Bread flour, one possibility is that your KASL, with its higher protein content, develops more gluten and, as a result, better captures and retains the gases of fermentation, leading to increased oven spring. However, with all the changes you made, it is possible that those changes were also contributors to the reduced rim size.

Peter

Peter,

I do know you are a stickler on the technical aspects of dough making.  I also believe Brian is the same as you.  I can understand every action has a reaction.

I also think it might be a good test to make a KASL preferment Lehmann dough with the same methods and ingredients I used for the Better for Bread flour and see what the results would be.  I might do that test if I donít go to market this week or maybe next week. 

I am still not sure why the KASL dough and the Better for Bread dough didnít have the same rise.  The dough and skin had many fermentation bubbles.  More than any of my preferment Lehmann doughs.  I would have thought that the stretch and folds that I did would have further developed the gluten.  I have seen that happen before in other high hydration doughs I have made.  I never made one preferment Lehmann dough ball at home though, so maybe even my mixer at market could have made the difference. 

Thanks for going over what might have produced different results.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #732 on: January 25, 2011, 09:00:56 PM »
The preferment Lehmann dough ball with the added dairy whey was baked today into a pizza. The pizza did brown better with the dairy whey added.  The crumb was even moister with dairy whey added.  This dough ball did open easily.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #733 on: January 25, 2011, 09:03:35 PM »
rest of pictures

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #734 on: January 25, 2011, 09:41:56 PM »
There was one dough ball that was left out too long near the end of today.  It had been a frozen dough ball from two weeks ago and when I went to open the dough ball it wanted to tear.  I was just ready to throw the dough ball away, and had just pushed it into a ball.  I almost threw it in the trash can.  I then decided to experiment with it.  I just formed it into a dough ball.  From reballing it was very tight. The dough ball was made into bread right away.  Steve and I decided to bake it into bread.  Steve cut the slits and we just placed it into the top oven.  After we saw it rising we decided to take a cold dough ball out of the deli case and just slit it and also placed it into the oven.  Steve and I were surprised to see the dough ball that was tight, did rise better and also created a better loaf of bread.  The pictures with the tighter crumb in the slices are the dough ball we removed from the deli case.  Now the preferment Lehmann dough can be made into bread, too!  ;D  I still donít understand what happened with this.  This almost useless dough ball did create a decent bread.  Since my deck oven is low, we almost had problems removing the dough ball from the oven.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #735 on: January 25, 2011, 09:44:52 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #736 on: January 25, 2011, 09:53:00 PM »
The preferment Lehmann dough ball with the added dairy whey was baked today into a pizza. The pizza did brown better with the dairy whey added.  The crumb was even moister with dairy whey added.  This dough ball did open easily.

Norma,

The pizzas look good, and have more browning than some of your recent efforts using the preferment Lehmann dough. Would you say that the improvement in crust color is sufficient enough to warrant inclusion in your preferment Lehmann dough at market, assuming that a larger dough batch exhibits the same results?

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #737 on: January 25, 2011, 10:05:11 PM »
Norma, these look so great and delicious! The browning/color is perfect.

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #738 on: January 25, 2011, 10:20:12 PM »
Norma,

The pizzas look good, and have more browning than some of your recent efforts using the preferment Lehmann dough. Would you say that the improvement in crust color is sufficient enough to warrant inclusion in your preferment Lehmann dough at market, assuming that a larger dough batch exhibits the same results?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying the pizza looked good.  This pizza did have much better browning than my other preferment Lehmann doughs without the added dairy whey.  The taste of the crumb was even better.  I donít know what caused that.  The crumb was moister than the other pies I baked today. Do you have any idea why the crumb was moister?  I think after a few more tests to see if the crumb and browning stays the same, I would like to include the dairy whey in all my preferment Lehmann doughs.  I might do 5 test doughs for this coming week.  Steve even said he liked this pie better, with the added dairy whey.

I also did two other tests with the preferment Lehmann dough.  The one was with the added non-fat milk powder and the other one was with Better for Bread flour.  Those results werenít as good as the added dairy whey.  I will post those pictures tomorrow.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #739 on: January 25, 2011, 10:22:35 PM »
Norma, these look so great and delicious! The browning/color is perfect.

plainslicer,

Thanks for your kind words!  :)  Adding dairy whey did help this crust brown better. I will know more after I do a few more tests.

Norma

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