Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 159835 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #775 on: February 15, 2011, 09:44:17 PM »
I used most of the dough balls with added dairy whey today.  The crust did brown better, but I am not still sure if they added dairy whey does make my pizzas look better.  The crust didnít taste any different than when I didnít use dairy whey.  I had added more water to the 15 lb. batch of dough because it had felt drier. The skins did feel a little bit drier with the added dairy whey when opening the doughs. The crumb didnít taste any moister than my regular preferment Lehmann dough pizzas.  I did save a few dough balls to freeze to see what happens to the frozen dough balls when they are rethawed. 

Pictures of some of the pies made today with the added dairy whey.  The last pictures are one Greek-style pizza, a Sicilian pizza made with the preferment Lehmann dough and an experimental Nutella pie with cultured butter dotted around the edges all without added dairy whey.

Norma


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #776 on: February 15, 2011, 09:47:03 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #777 on: February 15, 2011, 09:49:21 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23363
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #778 on: February 15, 2011, 10:40:28 PM »
Norma,

It sounds like you have made some decisions on what you would like to make at market on a regular basis.

You have been on quite a culinary journey, starting on April 8, 2009 when you asked me for help in coming up with a NY style dough formulation (www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.0.html). That was the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. In due course, that led to the preferment Lehmann dough formulation. That became the mainstay of the pizzas you made at market while you experimented with other variations, including the use of wa dave's milk-based sourdough mix, the Ischia Lehmann starter/preferment dough formulation and the Lehmann milk kefir preferment version. Most recently, you tried using dried dairy whey as a way of improving the crust coloration of your Lehmann crusts. Of course, along the way you also came up with 101 ways of using the Lehmann dough, including what appears to be credible Greek and Sicilian style pizzas based on the Lehmann dough. You have made many incredible pizzas along the way. And I think it is safe to say that we and others on the forum have learned a lot from what you did.

Have you settled on what you would like to make at market on a regular basis, and what forms your pizzas will take beyond the basic NY style? And are there other styles that you would like to offer?

Peter



« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 11:16:49 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #779 on: February 15, 2011, 11:20:47 PM »
Peter,

It has been a good journey from my first post about asking you how to make a basic Lehmann dough and learning from there to where I am now. This almost past two years has had it share of challenges, but they all taught me something more about dough. I think my decision now is to stay with the preferment Lehmann dough.  I have it down pat and it does create a delicious pizza and I can also make many other things from the same dough.   After I was thinking about it today, I donít think my market customers would notice the difference if I went to a natural preferment dough.  I canít really tell that much difference myself.  The crumb structure is different and the taste of the crust is better to me, but most of my customers never tried a natural preferment crust.

I donít know if I will be able to make a Pizzarium style pizza at market, but have been working on using basically the same dough in my last attempt as my preferment Lehmann dough, but using a higher hydration and more oil in the dough.  It will be a challenge to make a Pizzarium style pizza from this same dough.   Do you have any ideas on if this might work or not?  I recently found I can use this same poolish and it works well.  I just need to get down how to handle the dough.  If I could get this down okay, then I could use the same poolish as I make on Fridays.  Do you also have any other ideas of what I can do with the preferment Lehmann dough? 
I think I have come to the conclusion that making a natural preferment Lehmann dough at market it not going to work, but I never would say never.

Thanks for helping me though all the other experiments to be able to come to my decision now.  :)

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23363
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #780 on: February 16, 2011, 01:55:25 PM »
I donít know if I will be able to make a Pizzarium style pizza at market, but have been working on using basically the same dough in my last attempt as my preferment Lehmann dough, but using a higher hydration and more oil in the dough.  It will be a challenge to make a Pizzarium style pizza from this same dough.   Do you have any ideas on if this might work or not?  I recently found I can use this same poolish and it works well.  I just need to get down how to handle the dough.  If I could get this down okay, then I could use the same poolish as I make on Fridays.  Do you also have any other ideas of what I can do with the preferment Lehmann dough? 
I think I have come to the conclusion that making a natural preferment Lehmann dough at market it not going to work, but I never would say never.

Norma,

As you know, with the preferment Lehmann dough we were operating within a strict set of constraints as imposed on you by the management of the market. I don't know offhand how you might adapt the preferment Lehmann dough to achieve a Pizzarium type dough while operating within the same set of constraints. You might have to come up with another dough formulation that gives you that style of pizza. Also, you would have to decide whether you are willing to make another dough just to be able to offer a Pizzarium style pizza in a one day a week operation. I have been only loosely following the action on the Pizzarium thread. I would have liked to follow that thread more closely but the volume of posts on the forum has been so high lately, with over a 100 new posts a day, that it has been difficult for me to review them all in my role as a Moderator and to try to fully comprehend each post at the same time. The Pizzarium thread is a very active thread with many participants and many variations of dough formulations, ingredients and methods and a lot of links to videos, articles, etc. Since you have been in the thick of things for some time, you will be in a better position than I to know how, if at all, you might modify the preferment Lehmann dough formulation to achieve a Pizzarium type pizza within the constraints imposed by the managers of the market operation.

With respect to the preferment Lehmann dough formulation itself, the only thought I had in the way of modifying it would be to increase the dairy whey content, maybe to around 10%. I believe that was the number Tom Lehmann tossed out. It would be interesting to see if his number is a better number to use than the 4% figure I suggested.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #781 on: February 16, 2011, 05:37:22 PM »
Norma,

As you know, with the preferment Lehmann dough we were operating within a strict set of constraints as imposed on you by the management of the market. I don't know offhand how you might adapt the preferment Lehmann dough to achieve a Pizzarium type dough while operating within the same set of constraints. You might have to come up with another dough formulation that gives you that style of pizza. Also, you would have to decide whether you are willing to make another dough just to be able to offer a Pizzarium style pizza in a one day a week operation. I have been only loosely following the action on the Pizzarium thread. I would have liked to follow that thread more closely but the volume of posts on the forum has been so high lately, with over a 100 new posts a day, that it has been difficult for me to review them all in my role as a Moderator and to try to fully comprehend each post at the same time. The Pizzarium thread is a very active thread with many participants and many variations of dough formulations, ingredients and methods and a lot of links to videos, articles, etc. Since you have been in the thick of things for some time, you will be in a better position than I to know how, if at all, you might modify the preferment Lehmann dough formulation to achieve a Pizzarium type pizza within the constraints imposed by the managers of the market operation.

With respect to the preferment Lehmann dough formulation itself, the only thought I had in the way of modifying it would be to increase the dairy whey content, maybe to around 10%. I believe that was the number Tom Lehmann tossed out. It would be interesting to see if his number is a better number to use than the 4% figure I suggested.

Peter

Peter,

I know I have to work at market in the time restraints that are imposed for me.  I was thinking along the lines of making the same poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough and trying to incorporate it into a preferment Lehmann dough for a Pizzarium style dough on a Monday.  The last formula I used is at Reply 519 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg127198.html#msg127198

In that formula I used the poolish from one dough ball for the preferment Lehmann dough, but added cake yeast also, because for me cake yeast does seem to make the dough more bubbly.  At least for now that is my thought.  I upped the hydration and added more oil, but basically it is almost like a Lehmann dough.  At least the preferment Lehmann dough poolish did work by making it on a Friday and then incorporating it into the dough on Sunday.  Since I did use all KASL in my last experiment, I would tend to think it might work out for a Pizzarium style, but donít know.  This week I might try again.  It doesnít take me very long to make doughs at market in my mixer, but I would first have to see if any customers are even interested in a Pizzarium style at market.  The people that did taste the Pizzarium style really raved about it. One customer wanted to buy the rest of the pie, but I wanted to have a few slices to reheat. I know the Pizzarium thread is very active and I even have trouble trying to understand all that is happening on that thread.  With each member that tries something different there, or posts links or videos there is something to be learned. 

I can understand as your role as a moderator with all the new posts each day it is hard to keep up on all that is going on and also trying to police what is going on in the entire forum.  Your job as a moderator and the other moderators can take a lot of time.  Many thanks to you and the other moderators for making this forum a friendly place that anyone can learn.

If I have time this Friday I will also mix a Lehmann dough with 10% dairy whey to see what happens.  The crust did brown better than my regular preferment Lehmann dough, but I donít really think it would be worth investing more money to purchase dairy whey for the little bit of browning I did get.  The pizzas baked with dairy whey do need to be watch more closely when they are in the oven. The bottom crust was browned just right in my opinion with added dairy whey.  I wonder what will happen with that with the added dairy whey.  The only way I will know is to try.

Lorenzo from Roccaís Pizza was over at market to visit again yesterday. Steve and I talked to him a little. I had to laugh when he was there.  He said can I throw the dough.  I was opening a dough and quickly threw it into the air.  He just looked with big opened eyes.  He said he is going to bring me steel pans, but I donít know if he will. I told him I would buy some from him, but he said he wants to give me some. He smelled and touched my different doughs and said the Pizzarium dough need flour on the surface.  I said I know it did need flour when I was ready to open it.   :-D

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23363
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #782 on: February 16, 2011, 06:48:13 PM »
Norma,

If you get to the point where you have a modified Pizzarium/Lehmann preferment dough formulation that works, I can help you with the math to break down the formulation into its three parts.

Lorenzo sounds like a real character. Has he tried your slices and, if so, what was his reaction?

BTW, on the matter of the Lehmann crust coloration, it is quite common for authentic NY style pizzas, especially from the slice joints, to have light colored crusts, almost white. Maybe that is intentional so that more crust color can develop during reheating of the slices. Our members tend to favor a fair amount of char and also large, open and airy rims for the NY style (not the "elite" style, which tend to have a lot of char). Many authentic NY slice pizzas I have seen have had quite small rims.

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #783 on: February 16, 2011, 08:30:14 PM »
Norma,

If you get to the point where you have a modified Pizzarium/Lehmann preferment dough formulation that works, I can help you with the math to break down the formulation into its three parts.

Lorenzo sounds like a real character. Has he tried your slices and, if so, what was his reaction?

BTW, on the matter of the Lehmann crust coloration, it is quite common for authentic NY style pizzas, especially from the slice joints, to have light colored crusts, almost white. Maybe that is intentional so that more crust color can develop during reheating of the slices. Our members tend to favor a fair amount of char and also large, open and airy rims for the NY style (not the "elite" style, which tend to have a lot of char). Many authentic NY slice pizzas I have seen have had quite small rims.

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for telling me if I get to the point of having a modified Lehmann dough for the Pizzarium thread, you would help me with the math part of breaking down the formulation into three parts.

Lorenzo is a real character.  I laugh (to myself) every time I see him at my stand.  No, he hasnít tried any of my slices, but said they look good and isnít saying anymore that my dough doesnít look proofed enough.  If he comes again, I will offer him and his friend a slice.  The friend never talks. Lorenzo talks so fast, and uses his hands so much that I have trouble keeping up with him. Lorenzo told a potential customers yesterday to buy the pizza because he said it was great.  At least he was trying to help with my business.  Steve and I were talking yesterday about maybe going to one of his shops sometime.  I would like to see how he makes his dough, if he would show us.  Lorenzo told me he bought a bunch of steel pans at a auction.  I asked him what kinds of pizzas he makes and he replied: ďall kindsĒ.  That is to be seen.  I asked Lorenzo if he ever heard of Pizzarium in Rome and he didnít.  I have Lorenzoís personal phone number and might call him someday to see when he would be at one of the pizza shops. 

I know the authentic NY style slices donít have any char, no brown rims, and the rims arenít big.  I have eaten  whole pies and slices in NY many times.  In comparison I usually ask my customers if they would like to have a slice with a bigger rim or maybe the rims that are smaller.  They mostly prefer the bigger rims, just like the members of this forum.

Norma


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #784 on: February 19, 2011, 12:07:18 AM »
Steve (Ev) and I tried a preferment Lehmann dough S'More pizza in his WFO tonight.  I used the homemade Nutella for the chocolate and added graham cracker crumbs and small marshmallows on the pie before the bake.  I think we should have waited until near the end of the bake to add the marshmallows.  They got crispy on the top, but the bottom of the marshmallows were still nice and soft.  We had to pull the pie out of the WFO sooner than we wanted.  :-D At least the preferment Lehmann dough was in a WFO to bake.

Pictures below

Norma

Pizza01

  • Guest
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #785 on: February 19, 2011, 08:13:55 AM »
that look so tasty... the combination of nutalla on that floffy looking dough. i am litel ill and that slice could make fill real better right now. with warm cup of milk and honey... yamm...

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #786 on: February 19, 2011, 08:38:13 AM »
that look so tasty... the combination of nutalla on that floffy looking dough. i am litel ill and that slice could make fill real better right now. with warm cup of milk and honey... yamm...

Michael,

Thanks for your kind words.  :) If you are interested in the pie I made with Nutella and the cultured butter, the Nutella and cultured butter pie is at Reply 776 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg127134.html#msg127134 after the regular pie pictures.

I hope you soon are feeling better.

Norma

Pizza01

  • Guest
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #787 on: February 19, 2011, 08:40:55 AM »
thank you norma.
i saw it the crumb looks perfect!  and those pizzas looks very tasty.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #788 on: February 19, 2011, 08:52:41 AM »
thank you norma.
i saw it the crumb looks perfect!  and those pizzas looks very tasty.

Michael,

Thanks!  :)

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #789 on: February 21, 2011, 08:34:31 PM »
This is my dough ball with the 10% dairy whey added.  Might have to freeze this dough ball because we are supposed to get snow in our area.  It is already snowing.   :(

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #790 on: March 01, 2011, 10:12:41 PM »
Well, I did take the dough ball along to market today that I used 10% dairy whey in the formula.  I got the pie ready to bake and a lady came to my pizza stand I knew that just had a baby 3 weeks ago.  I was holding the baby while Steve watched the pie in the oven.  I had taken the pictures of the dough and was going to take other pictures, but as soon as the pie came out of the oven, and while I was still holding the baby, the whole pie sold before I could get any pictures of what it looked like.  The pie did bake with a golden brown color.  I didnít even have a chance to taste the pie.  I said to Steve, ďWhat happened to that pie!Ē  He said we just sold it.  Well so much for a picture of the pie with 10% dairy whey added.  Anyone reading this post will just have to believe what happened and think how it might have looked from my description.   :-D

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23363
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #791 on: March 05, 2011, 12:16:42 AM »
Norma,

Somehow I missed your last post. Do you plan to go to 10% dairy whey for your basic preferment Lehmann dough that you have been using at market?

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #792 on: March 05, 2011, 07:24:22 AM »
Norma,

Somehow I missed your last post. Do you plan to go to 10% dairy whey for your basic preferment Lehmann dough that you have been using at market?

Peter

Peter,

I donít even know how the pie tasted with the 10% dairy whey added. What I saw of one slice looked good. When I went back into my stand,  a customer wanted a slice of pepperoni pizza.  There was one slice that was really golden brown and I asked him did he want that slice or a lighter one that was on another rack.  After I sold that slice and the man walked away with it, I realized that must have been the pie baked with the 10% dairy whey.  I then asked Steve was that the pie and he said yes, he forgot to take a picture of the whole pie.  The pie was gone then, because I was talking to my friend and holding the baby.  Usually Steve and I taste every experimental pie, but somehow that whole pie was gone, before either of us could taste or even examine it, because we were busy at the time.  Steve said he really had to watch that pie because it did brown faster.  I mixed up another poolish yesterday and am going to add 10% dairy whey to the final dough again Monday for 1 dough ball.  This time I am going to taste the pie and also watch how it bakes.  I donít think I ever forgot to take pictures of experimental pies before.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #793 on: March 07, 2011, 10:49:37 AM »
I made another dough ball this morning with 10% dairy whey added.  Hope I don't get preoccupied tomorrow again, so I can really see how the pie looks and tastes.  ::)

Picture of dough ball with 10% dairy whey added.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #794 on: March 08, 2011, 09:48:07 PM »
The preferment Lehmann dough made with 10% dairy whey turned out good today at market, but I donít know why the rim of the crust didnít get as dark as last week.  Steve was watching the oven last week and I only got to see one piece of that pie and that crust looked a lot darker to me then.  This inside of the rim was very moist and the bottom crust almost was like the milk kefir pizza I also made today.  I donít know why the bottom crust did look almost the same.  The taste of the crust was very good.  Steve and I both enjoyed this pie. 

Pictures below

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #795 on: March 08, 2011, 09:50:39 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #796 on: March 08, 2011, 09:52:01 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #797 on: March 09, 2011, 08:01:13 AM »
This is one pizza made yesterday with the regular Preferment Lehmann dough, without added dairy whey.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #798 on: March 23, 2011, 08:19:48 AM »
I tried a couple of experiments out when making my final dough on Monday to see what would happen in the mixer and with the final dough, if I added more water after the dough was mixed.  I didnít take any pictures of what happened, but will take pictures next week, if I remember.  The extra water added at the end had the water sloshing around with the dough, with pieces of the dough splattered on the sides of the mixer bowl,  but finally the dough did come together nicely.  I have been adding more water to the Preferment Lehmann doughs at market, but before I added the water directly at the beginning of the mix.  The sloshing dough didnít seem to have an affect on my dough yesterday and the pizza looked about the same.

My great-granddaughter also came to visit at market last evening, not to long before I closed.  She also really likes pizza, as I do.  She ate a lot of pizza.  I gave my great-granddaughter a small dough ball to play with.  She really liked playing with the cold dough ball and no dough stuck to her fingers.  Maybe she will be the next pizza maker in our family.  :)

Pictures of a couple of pies yesterday with the sloshing water added and also pictures of my great-granddaughter eating the pizzas and playing with the dough ball.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24060
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #799 on: March 23, 2011, 08:22:22 AM »
more pictures

Norma


 

pizzapan