Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 136196 times)

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Offline Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #140 on: January 27, 2010, 08:04:27 AM »
Norma,
I am confused.  On your first reply you talked about adding sugar and that was not the true point.  Sugar can be added in many ways, sugar, honey, malt extract, etc.  All sugars react a little different based on there complexity.  So you really can not compare the sugar that you added earlier to the malt.  The malt adds flavor along with the burning sugar causing coloring of the crust.
On the second post you referred to some links about diastolic malt.  The KASL is all ready malted and if you were to add it to the lehman dough you would be changing things a whole lot.

Thanks,

Bob1   


Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #141 on: January 27, 2010, 08:22:41 AM »
Bob1,

Sorry,  if I am making you confused.  The only reason I mentioned using the regular sugar, was that I had tried using sugar.  I know there are many kinds or ways of adding other ingredients that can add flavor.  I know there is no comparison with using sugar and other ingredients. 
To try and clear up about using the KASL.  When I was using bromated flours, I didnít have any problems with browning the crust.  I wanted to use KASL to get away from bromated flours.  If I had the choice, I would still be using All Trumps.  I just donít want to put my customers at risk, if for some reason I would have a gum line and all the bromates wouldnít be baked out.  I also donít want to inhale the bromated flour. 
If I do decide to use another preferment, then I will see if the preferment and KASL need other ingredients to brown the crust.

As for the links, I am not familiar with using other types of ingredients to brown the crust.  Maybe these links will also help other people understand more about using ingredients other than sugar to help get a desired crust color. 

I donít know if this helped or not, but I am just trying to explain why I am using this flour and might see a problem with crust browning if using another preferment. 


Thanks,

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #142 on: January 27, 2010, 10:53:11 AM »
First of all, I think you all mean to say "diastatic" and "nondiastatic" rather than "diastolic" or "nondiastolic". Unless, of course, you are trying to elevate each other's blood pressure :-D.

I think it is important to distinguish between a dough made by the direct method as opposed to one made from an indirect method. For a dough made using the direct method, and assuming that the flour is malted, I would have no real concerns about the residual sugar levels after a day or a few days of cold fermentation. Beyond that, I could use sugar in many of its forms, including nondiastatic barley malt syrup. In such a case, I might lean to a dry form of the barley malt because it might be easier for Norma to work with and use in the low temperature environment of the market (sometimes in the mid 40 degrees F) where she would prepare the dough. Also, I have discovered that the liquid barley malt can darken the color of the crumb as well as the outer crust. And it doesn't take a lot of barley malt syrup to produce that darker crumb color. For example, a few years ago, I made a clone of a Sbarro's NY style pizza using only 2.2% barley malt syrup. Yet, I could see the effects of the barley malt syrup on the color of the crumb. You can see what I mean from Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg40413.html#msg40413. I experienced the same crumb darkening when I made JerryMac's NY style dough formulation using barley malt syrup. In that case, the barley malt syrup was over 5%, so its effect on crumb coloration was more in evidence. This said, I do not have any problem with anyone using any form of sugar so long as it gets the job done. If Norma and her customers like a darker crumb, then that can be achieved by using barley malt syrup.

My concern with sugar and residual sugar levels is with respect to doughs made using the indirect method, as by using a preferment. Among the different forms of preferment, my concern is greater for a poolish or sponge than say, a stiffer preferment such as a biga or old dough. Liquidy preferments like poolish can be very hard on sugar and deplete it fairly quickly, and especially if the amount of flour devoted to the poolish is a large percent of the total flour. The use of diastatic malt is to make more enzymes available to extract more natural sugars from the damaged starch. The diastatic malt is typically added as part of the final mix. Didier Rosada discusses this issue at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm, with particular reference to the following:

When flour and water get incorporated together, enzyme activity starts. Some enzymes generate sugar degradation (amylase), while others provoke protein degradation (protease). 

During the pre-fermentation time, the yeast uses up a lot of the flourís sugar, especially during long fermentation time at room temperature. When this portion of flour is added back to the final dough, the overall quantity of fermentiscibles sugar is lower than what is usually available for the yeast in a straight dough method. As a result of the lower availability of sugar, it is difficult to obtain satisfactory coloration of the crust. This defect is sometimes noticeable when a high percentage of overnight poolish or sponge is used in the final dough or when the enzyme activity of the flour is on the low side. To troubleshoot this problem, 0.5% to 1% of diastatic malt (based on the total flour) can be added to the final dough.

Preferments like poolish or sponge, sometimes generate lower levels of fermentescible sugars available at the end of the pre-fermentation time. In certain cases, this can be used to our advantage. A higher quantity of preferment should be added to the final dough when working with a high level of enzyme in the flour (low falling number). By increasing the quantity of preferment, we increase the portion of the flour with less sugar available to the yeast.  In doing so we reduce a lot the fermentation activity and the reddish crust color that is usually obtained when too many enzymes are present in the flour.

More liquid preferments like poolish, because of their liquid consistency, favor enzyme activity. Amylase, but also protease, will be more active during the pre-fermentation. As a result, higher extensibility in the final dough is obtained, reducing the mixing time of the final dough and preserving it from potential over oxidation. A better extensibility is also noticeable at the shaping stage. Higher volume and more open inside are also achieved in the final product.


Until Norma actually uses a poolish or modified-poolish to make a dough, we won't know for sure what she will need. I suggested that diastatic malt might be a solution to the color problem if it becomes an issue, but it could well be that using a standard form of sugar, or possibly a combination of such a sugar and diastatic malt, could be solutions to the problem.

BTW, diastatic malt is available from different sources, including Bob's Red Mill, as shown at http://www.bobsredmill.com/malted-barley-flour.html. It is also available from Barry Farm, http://www.barryfarm.com/images/product/sugars/diastaticmalt.JPG.

Peter

Offline Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #143 on: January 27, 2010, 12:25:48 PM »
Pete,
I was only talking about using the non diastatic in the standard formula that Norma uses now for taste and ease of process.  If her pie is good now then the malt would add flavor and there is no need to use diastatic and mess with the chemistry.   I think there might be a misunderstanding.  I have tried a poolish close to what critter used in variations with two different yeasts.   One variation I did is posted earlier on reply #11.  It is not a direct comparison to a Lehman dough but I assumed because of the high hydration of both the poolish and the final dough it was good for speculation.  Considering the higher enzyme activity with the KASL my pie still had good color.  I also did a few variations with the KASL and they browned well also.  So if I was a betting man I would say that the KASL would hold up and no malt either diastaic or nondiastatic would be required, but like you say it will have to be determined if or when she tries it.  Not really worth a discusion on my part.  I am just trying to talk to her about the barley malt in the regular Lehman formula, which I have tried before.  In the past I have also tested 10% to 20% rye or wheat flour with the KASL and 1 to 2% milk powder with the 2 to 2.5% barley malt with great results.   Depending on the cook time with the later you can get great flavor.  If you get bubble in the crust, the toasted dough does wonders to step it up.  Pete I am just trying to help and open things up for discussion.  I feel that when the logistics are this tough (Health board, Environment, One day a week etc) it's time to cheat the Artisan factor and just make it work.  It's Normas call in the end, I am just trying to nudge her the easiest direction, or to just try a test batch.  I really think the shortcut will surprise her.


Thanks,

Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #144 on: January 27, 2010, 01:23:25 PM »
Bob1,

I was simply trying to shift gears from bigas and natural preferments to a poolish preferment since using a preferment with the Lehmann dough formulation was the predicate of this thread. Norma should by all means consider using nondiastatic malted products in the Lehmann dough formulation as you propose should she see merit in doing so, whether it is because of greater crust color or better crust flavor. However, in such a case, she might want to start a new thread so that we don't send this thread into an entirely different direction.

There have been several members who have used a nondiastatic malt products for pizza dough going back several years when pftaylor first discussed his use of the malted powder in his grandmother's dough recipe. Since then, we have had members use standard nondiastatic malt products, including the Carnation Original Malted Milk powder (which is in the ingredients list for the expanded dough calculating tool) and the Ovaltine Classic powder, both of which include a nondiastatic malt product (and a bunch of other things).

I will await guidance from Norma before proceeding further. She might also want to revisit Villa Roma's dough formulation at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg86108.html#msg86108. That dough formulation may not fit Norma's market conditions but it is a proven recipe. I haven't looked at relating that recipe to the Lehmann recipe but it something that might be considered at some point.

Peter

Offline Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #145 on: January 27, 2010, 02:13:15 PM »
You guys have to understand, I have been off track my whole life.  It's part of my infinite charm and grace.

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #146 on: January 27, 2010, 05:10:39 PM »
Peter and Bob1,

I appreciate both of you trying to help me with my learning curve in both my preferment and coloring of the crust.  Lol, Bob, I just met you Saturday and you do have charm and grace.  :)

I still would be interested in trying Reply #131 and Reply #132 on this thread to see if the poolish or modified verison of this could add to the crust flavor. 

Thanks,

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #147 on: January 27, 2010, 06:06:00 PM »
Norma,

It will take a fair amount of math and major reconstructive surgery on the recipe at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451 to come up with a proposed dough formulation for you to try out, but in the meantime can you tell me roughly what temperature you would normally be expected to encounter at the market where you would be making the (modified) poolish and the final dough, or would you be planning to make the modified poolish at home for the time being and complete the final mix at market? Also, do you have any diastatic malt on hand? Although I think some may be needed, I haven't reached a conclusion on this at this juncture. We might also decide not to use any diastatic malt and await the results before deciding on what to do next.

At this point I am contemplating a Lehmann dough with a hydration similar to what you have been using and a modified poolish that would spend three days in the refrigerator/deli case after its initial prefermentation. Would that represent a workable timetable? I would expect that the final dough from which you would make the individual dough balls (a total of five) would be kept in your deli case for about a day before using. For planning purposes, is it on Monday or Tuesday that you actually bake the pizzas?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #148 on: January 27, 2010, 08:18:43 PM »
Norma,

It will take a fair amount of math and major reconstructive surgery on the recipe at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451 to come up with a proposed dough formulation for you to try out, but in the meantime can you tell me roughly what temperature you would normally be expected to encounter at the market where you would be making the (modified) poolish and the final dough, or would you be planning to make the modified poolish at home for the time being and complete the final mix at market? Also, do you have any diastatic malt on hand? Although I think some may be needed, I haven't reached a conclusion on this at this juncture. We might also decide not to use any diastatic malt and await the results before deciding on what to do next.

At this point I am contemplating a Lehmann dough with a hydration similar to what you have been using and a modified poolish that would spend three days in the refrigerator/deli case after its initial prefermentation. Would that represent a workable timetable? I would expect that the final dough from which you would make the individual dough balls (a total of five) would be kept in your deli case for about a day before using. For planning purposes, is it on Monday or Tuesday that you actually bake the pizzas?

Peter


Peter,

I can only imagine how much math and major reconstructive surgery might be needed to come up with a proposed dough formulation.

I would be making the poolish at market on Friday. I usually clean the oven and do other things either Thursday or Friday.  The ambient temperature can vary, like I told you before.  This past Monday, the weather was warm and the temperature at market was 58 degrees F.  We are supposed to be having a cold front come though, probably by tomorrow.  I havenít looked at the weather for Friday, next Monday or Tuesday.  The weather men arenít always predictable.  If I had to guess the temperature would be around 48 degrees F to 53 degrees F.  I do have a disc heater at market and could turn that on, so the poolish could be warmer.
No, I donít have any diastatic malt on hand.  If needed in the future, I can purchase some.
The Lehmann dough, similar hydration and modified poolish are all workable for me.  I would then incorporate the modified poolish into the dough on Monday.  The dough would then cold ferment until Tuesday, when I would use the dough to make the pizzas. 

Thanks for taking the time to go over all of this,

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #149 on: January 28, 2010, 08:42:24 PM »
Norma,

It did take some extra math and calculations but I have presented below a test dough formulation for you to try. It is based on using a classic poolish with 100% hydration but at the maximum of the total formula water, which for a classic poolish is about 80% of the total formula water. That is less than the ciabatta dough recipe, which is considerably above 100% of the total formula water, but I think it might be preferable at this point to go with about 80% for benchmark purposes and to make adjustments to that benchmark based on your results. As a percent of total dough weight, the poolish comes to about 30%. I also increased the amount of yeast to use in the poolish because of the likely cool temperature at market. I also suggest that you use much warmer water temperature, about 120 degrees F, in preparing the poolish. The added yeast should provide more fermentation activity and the warmer water should speed up the fermentation process. If you think that using your disk heater is a better option for keeping the poolish warm as it preferments, then I would use water at around room temperature. You should follow the poolish preparation and warm-up instructions given in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451.

For the basic Lehmann dough formulation, I decided on a hydration of 61%. It is quite possible that the poolish will add significant strength to the final dough because of the acidity levels so I want to compensate for that possibility by increasing the hydration slightly so as not to penalize extensibility. As you will see below, the IDY in the total dough formulation is apportioned between the poolish and the final mix.

In the interest of time in case you decide to start the experiment tomorrow, in what I have presented below I did not show all of the math to convert the basic Lehmann dough formulation to the poolish and final mix parts of the total formula. I don't see any need for you to try to replicate my math at this point but that is up to you. I also left in many of the baker's percents to allow you to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to recreate my numbers if you would like.

You will note that I did not recommend any sugar or diastatic malt for the dough formulation. If the crust flavors meet your requirements but the crusts are too light in color, which I think is a possibility because of fairly extensive poolish fermentation activity and the extended total fermentation time, we can address the crust color problem in a future experiment should you wish to proceed to the next level. 

Here is the total profile:

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
Single Ball:
1550.82 g  |  54.7 oz | 3.42 lbs
946 g  |  33.37 oz | 2.09 lbs
6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.06 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
27.14 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.86 tsp | 1.62 tbsp
15.51 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
2545.67 g | 89.79 oz | 5.61 lbs | TF = 0.08932
509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for five dough balls for five 16" pizzas; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
378.31 g  |  13.34 oz | 0.83 lbs
378.31 g  |  13.34 oz | 0.83 lbs
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
757.75 g | 26.73 oz | 1.67 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough weight.

Final Mix
 Poolish (from above):                                                        757.75 g | 26.73 oz | 1.67 lbs
Remaining Total Formula King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):
Total Formula Salt (2.31470%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3228%):
1172.51 g  |  41.36 oz | 2.58 lbs
567.69 g  |  20.02 oz | 1.25 lbs
5.07 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.68 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
27.14 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.86 tsp | 1.62 tbsp
15.51 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                                                 2545.67 g | 89.79 oz | 5.61 lbs

I think the above numbers will work but since I have never tried the dough formulation you may want to note any problem areas. You might also find it necessary to tweak the flour and/or water in the mixer bowl to achieve a final dough condition that is like what you achieve when you make your regular Lehmann dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 04:54:25 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #150 on: January 28, 2010, 09:16:22 PM »
Peter,

Thank you so much for going though all the math in figuring out the poolish, Lehmann dough, and final dough for me to try another preferment.  I will print out you instructions and formulaís,
I will also print out the instructions for the poolish.
I sure trust you math, but not mine. 
I did note you didnít suggest to use any sugar or diastatic malt for the dough formulation.  This can be a starting point and if more coloration is needed, I will then in future experiments proceed with either sugar or diastatic malt. .
I will take temperatures of the room temperature, flour, water and finished poolish.  It is supposed to be single digit numbers here tonight temperature wise.  I am sure market will be really cool tomorrow.  I think I will first go with the idea of heating the water to 120 degrees F.  I will also turn on the disk heater, but not have it directly on the poolish.
I was at market today to do cleaning, but need to go again tomorrow to program my cash register.  I have items I no longer sell or have changed prices on certain items. 
I will note any problem areas.  If needed on Monday, I will weigh any extra flour or water that might be needed to achieve the characteristics of my regular Lehmann dough and take note of that, also.
I think this will be another good step in determining if this new preferment will give better flavor to the crust. 
I will mix the poolish in a food safe container with either a spatula or spoon.

Thanks,

Norma
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 09:41:38 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #151 on: January 29, 2010, 04:21:34 PM »
For anyone that is following this thread, you can see what Tom Lehmann replied to my last post.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&start=15#p57716

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #152 on: January 29, 2010, 05:03:28 PM »
I mixed the poolish today.  The room temperature at market was 47 degrees F, flour temperature was 47 degrees F.  Water temperature heated to 122 degrees F.  I weighed out the ingredients and then mixed with a whisk.  Since it was so cool, I decided to place the disk heater near the container with the poolish.  I waited 40 minutes and wanted to look how the poolish was doing.  There were small bubbles forming.  I then decided to get a stainless steel bowl and put the poolish container with the poolish inside the bowl.  I thought maybe the heat from the disk heater would somehow get the poolish warmer in the stainless steel bow..  I checked on the poolish several times over the span of 3 hours.  Although a few more bubbles were forming, it didnít look like it had developed any more significant bubbles.  I then decided to just put the poolish in the deli case.  The temperature of the disk heater reached 57 degrees F, but the room temperature didnít rise much.

I donít know if I left the poolish out long enough, but since waiting more than 2 hours since the poolish started to bubble and not many more significant bubbles were forming, is the reason I just put the poolish in the deli case.  The temperature of the deli case was 35 degrees F.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #153 on: January 29, 2010, 05:28:08 PM »
Norma,

Under normal room temperature conditions, you should have gotten more bubbling. This may be one of those cases where having an inexpensive Styrofoam proofing box would be a big help, at least for the duration of your tests to determine whether using a poolish has value in the Lehmann dough. There should be further fermentation byproducts while the poolish is in the deli case but it remains to be seen if they are sufficient to produce a noticeable improvement in the crust flavors.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #154 on: January 29, 2010, 05:41:32 PM »
Norma,

Don't want to hijack your thread but I have a quick question about your scale...

How's the scale working for you? And what features come with it? I'm considering perhaps purchasing the same one from here:

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/tor-rey-pzc-5-10-pound-digital-pizza-controller-portion-scale-with-foot-tare-pedal/166PZC510.html
Mike

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #155 on: January 29, 2010, 05:49:51 PM »
Mike,

I bought exactly the same scale at the same place.  You aren't highjacking my thread.  If anyone has questions, that is fine with me.  I find the scale works great for me in weighing larger quantities.  I had to use my smaller scale today to weigh out the IDY. 
I am satisfied with the scale.  I didn't want to purchase a much higher price scale since I was just starting out at the market stand. 

Norma

Peter,

I thought after the poolish started to bubble after 40 minutes it would continue, but it didn't do much after that.

I do have all the things for making an inexpensive proofing box in my shed.  I just never got around to building it.  If the dough doesn't work out this week, I will put it together.

Thanks,

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #156 on: January 29, 2010, 06:03:21 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.
Mike

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #157 on: January 29, 2010, 06:05:26 PM »
Mike,

You're more than welcome.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #158 on: January 30, 2010, 11:14:08 AM »
For anyone that is following this thread, I believe I made a mistake in measuring the ingredients for the poolish, yesterday. 
After thinking about the poolish yesterday, I think I was too busy trying to remember and follow the instructions on deleting and adding items to my cash register and also trying to do too many things at once., while trying to mix the poolish.
I decided to read the instructions over again and try to duplicate the poolish at home today.  I have mixed the poolish and will see how well it does here at home.  The temperature of the flour and room temperature at home is 72 degrees F.  I also used a water temperature of 72 degrees F. 
Since I mixed the poolish today, I am sure I didnít follow the directions.  I think what I might have done is added the water at the total weigh of the whole poolish.  Today the poolish is much thicker. 
Will post another picture of the poolish today, if this one bubbles more.
I want to give this new preferment a chance of succeeding.
Guess the mind canít do too many things at once.  :-\

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #159 on: January 30, 2010, 02:59:56 PM »
Well..I think my intuitions were correct.  The poolish is nice and bubbly after almost 3 hours.  After reviewing what I could have done wrong, I am almost positive that I added 757.75 g water to the poolish instead of 378.31g.  When mixing the poolish at market did read the batter should be like a thick pancake batter.  I know how a pancake batter is supposed to be, but didnít associate the thinner batter to what was wrong.  Another standholder was at market and we were talking and I also was doing other things.  So much for trying to do multiple things at a time.  Guess the brain is getting to old to do that.  :-D
At least I wouldnít think it was the preferments fault that this dough wouldnít turn out okay.
Maybe the poolish would have even done better in the cooler environment.  Only time will tell.

Norma
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