Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 156158 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #125 on: January 25, 2010, 09:59:06 PM »
I want to try it at market, to be incorporated into the Lehmann dough.

Norma,

Would you be required to keep the starters at market all of the time and, if so, how would you maintain the starters, feed them and otherwise manage them to produce consistent and uniform results in the highly variable temperature environment you described earlier, especially when you would only be making and selling pizzas one day a week?

Peter


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #126 on: January 25, 2010, 10:25:05 PM »
Peter,

Yes, I would be required to make and keep them at market.  For right now to experiment with using a starter, I would just use a starter I have here at home and give samples to standholders to first see if a natural starter would work to improve the flavor of the crust.  There are many standholders and workers at market that purchase my pizza. I would let them know that I made the starter at home. They wouldn't mind if I used them as guinea pigs.  They have know me for years.  I still have a food approved shed here at home that we used to pop the popcorn and make candy in.  I also could use that to make the starter, here at home.
As for starting a natural starter at market and maintaining it, that might be able to be worked out.  I don't live that far from market and could go there until my starter is active and then refrigerate it, until needed.  I have a disc heater that I could use to warm up the starter, that was refrigerated. 
If you think this is not an option or would present too many problems, let me know.  Do you think the temperature would be too cool to activate the starter at market.

Thanks,

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #127 on: January 25, 2010, 11:16:00 PM »
Peter,

Maybe another option would be a post that November posted about using a modified short (or quick) poolish.  I donít know where it is referenced here on the forum, but he used a modified poolish that consisted of a sweetener, 50% of the formula's flour, water, ADY, and sea salt.  Could this be a option for trying a preferment?  I think he used turbinado sugar to add nutrients.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #128 on: January 26, 2010, 10:57:39 AM »
Yes, I would be required to make and keep them at market.  For right now to experiment with using a starter, I would just use a starter I have here at home and give samples to standholders to first see if a natural starter would work to improve the flavor of the crust.  There are many standholders and workers at market that purchase my pizza. I would let them know that I made the starter at home. They wouldn't mind if I used them as guinea pigs.  They have know me for years.  I still have a food approved shed here at home that we used to pop the popcorn and make candy in.  I also could use that to make the starter, here at home.
As for starting a natural starter at market and maintaining it, that might be able to be worked out.  I don't live that far from market and could go there until my starter is active and then refrigerate it, until needed.  I have a disc heater that I could use to warm up the starter, that was refrigerated. 
If you think this is not an option or would present too many problems, let me know.  Do you think the temperature would be too cool to activate the starter at market.

Norma,

As I see it, the biggest issue is one of logistics, especially trying to adapt a natural preferment version of the Lehmann dough formulation to the somewhat unpredictable temperature environment of the market where you would be making your doughs. As we previously learned, the widely varying ambient temperatures of the market where you have been making your pizzas pretty much ruled out a room-temperature fermented biga and, most likely, any other preferment, natural or otherwise, that would rely on prefermentation at room temperature. In a way, that is a shame because I believe that natural preferments work better at room temperatures than in typical cold fermentation applications of a day or a few days and, as a result, yield more complex crust flavors and textures. I discovered this in one of my early natural preferment versions of the Lehmann dough formulation, which I described at Reply 151 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774. These days, I would use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with a better and more accurate set of numbers. Back then, I was in the preferment learning stage and knew a lot less than what I believe I now know (I have also learned more about autolyse).

But, even if a spruced up version of the dough formulation described in Reply 151 might apply to your situation today, you are still left with the need to make and manage a quantity of natural preferment for a commercial batch of dough. I looked at some of the early Lehmann dough formulations you posted and that I believe you were using and it seems to me that you don't need a very large quantity of natural preferment to make your doughs. However, you would perhaps need a unit like the ThermoKool MR-132, or something equivalent, to control the temperature of the natural preferment. I don't think you can manage a natural preferment in a widely varying room temperature environment and get consistent, reproducible results, although you will be able to use your deli case to store the starter culture between feedings. But, even with a temperature controlled unit or facillity of some sort, you will still have to determine how to manage the natural starter culture and preferment for use in making pizzas only one day a week. If you have several starters and are feeding them regularly, I think that you will discover that you can go through a lot of flour just feeding and maintaining the starters. If you were a baker or artisan pizza maker making doughs throughout the work week, you would be using most of that flour to make dough.

You might take a look at what I discussed in Reply 151 referenced above to see if it is a possible candidate for what you would like to do. For additional insights and ideas, you might also look at what Jeff Varasano did with his Patsy's New York style clone at http://slice.seriouseats.com/jvpizza/. My recollection is that Jeff originally used about 40% natural preferment as a percentage of the total formula flour but later significantly reduced it to around 9%. Jeff also used a small amount (0.25%) of IDY. I found that using a combination of natural preferment and commercial yeast resulted in less crust flavor but perhaps helped with oven spring. You might also look at Terry Deane's work with natural preferments (supplemented with 0.15% IDY) starting at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7561.msg65261.html#msg65261. I don't recall whether Terry went to using only a natural preferment, as he indicated he planned to do, but I am sure that he would have been able to accomplish making a dough leavened only with wild yeast. No doubt, there are other members who have worked with natural starters/preferments for cold fermentation applications and might be able to offer some advice to you for your particular situation.

If you end up using the preferment dough calculating tool, you will perhaps want to know that you will have to specify the percentage of water used in your natural preferment. That is a function of how much flour and water you use, by weight, in your regular feedings of your starter culture. If that number is not quite accurate, you may find that you have to adjust the water and/or flour in the final mix to get the proper finished dough condition.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #129 on: January 26, 2010, 11:22:21 AM »
Maybe another option would be a post that November posted about using a modified short (or quick) poolish.  I donít know where it is referenced here on the forum, but he used a modified poolish that consisted of a sweetener, 50% of the formula's flour, water, ADY, and sea salt.  Could this be a option for trying a preferment?  I think he used turbinado sugar to add nutrients.

Norma,

I don't recall whether November posted the entire formula and methodology, but I believe what you have in mind is a series of three posts starting at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5741.msg55480.html#msg55480. I also know from Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6520.msg55904/topicseen.html#msg55904 that November uses a higher hydration for his modified poolish, although I don't recall whether he has specified the precise hydration figure.

It is possible to use something along the lines discussed by November, but you will still be confronted by a varying room temperature environment that can pose challenges to prefermenting the modified poolish as mentioned by November. You would perhaps need to use a temperature-controlled unit like the MR-138 or else try to adjust the modified poolish to compensate for the changing room temperature environment. This can be done by varying the amount of yeast used in the modified poolish, possibly varying the hydration and amount of salt, varying the temperature of the water used to make the modified poolish, or some combination of these adjustments. These are the kinds of measures that the pizzaioli in Naples use to make their doughs in a room temperature environment that changes with the seasons. It can take years to master these methods to produce doughs with consistent results and within the business hours of the pizza operator. In your case, you would be talking only a few hours, which should simplify matters, but the principles are the same. You would have to run a few tests to see if a short modified poolish method produces the enhanced crust flavor profile you are trying to achieve.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 10:47:38 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #130 on: January 26, 2010, 09:52:44 PM »
Peter,

I donít think I want to purchase the ThermoKool MR-132 unit.  I can see how the different ambient temperatures can affect anything I might want to try.  I will read over all the referenced posts you have given. 

Thanks for taking the time and  giving me all the links and information,

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #131 on: January 26, 2010, 10:04:37 PM »
Norma,

I saw an interesting poolish method today for a ciabatta dough, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451, but I think the poolish part, or a modified version of it, can also be used for a pizza dough, even one based on the Lehmann dough recipe. I would have to do some data conversions to get a better idea as to what the recipe is all about, but the poolish part might be worth considering. What I would be looking for in the data is whether there would be a need to add some diastatic malt or sugar in some form to be sure that the crust ends up with enough color.

I won't proceed unless you are interested.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #132 on: January 26, 2010, 10:26:08 PM »
Peter,

Yes, I am interested in trying the poolish, since it can be stored for 3 days in the refrigerator (deli case). For a warm-up time of one hour, that also might work in trying the poolish.

I wouldnít mind if I had to use some form of sugar or diastatic malt to make sure the crust ends up with enough color. I have noticed since using KASL there are more problems with getting the desired crust color, but have adjusted my oven a little higher to get a better crust color. 

If you want to take the time to see what conversions are needed, I would like to try this to see if a better crust flavor can be achieved.

This is a picture of the pizza made today using the KASL flour without preferment.

Thanks,

Norma
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 10:43:42 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #133 on: January 26, 2010, 10:51:16 PM »
Pete,
Norma,

We just hit full circle.  My reply #11 on this thread is close to Critter's formula.  I was using it for bread and just scarfed a dough ball off of it for pizza.  Mine was a preferment but I used it with beer yeast which is the same as commercial yeast but a less vigorous strain. It was a few days old and was able to stay at room temp because of the slow acting yeast.  I relied on regular yeast for my rise on the final dough.  It can be done with regular yeast at a cooler temp over night with the same effect.  In regards to being pale please look at the pic above reply #11 it shows great color, so you should be fine, even with the Lehman.  The first pic with the baked ciabatta background has the white unbaked pie, and the baked pie is below it.  After reading the logistics issues and considering the fact that a natural starter may be too tough, I would just add 2 to 2.5% Eden non diastolic malt to the original Lehman and be done with it. 

Thanks,

Bob1


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #134 on: January 26, 2010, 11:09:11 PM »
Bob1,

I can understand how using the Eden non diastolic malt could give better crust color.  That is something I might be interested in trying. 
I am still concerned about using a preferment and the different ambient temperatures that are always at market. 
I will think over what you are explaining.

Thanks,

Norma
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #135 on: January 27, 2010, 05:28:03 AM »
Bob1,

I can understand how using the Eden non diastolic malt could give better crust color.  That is something I might be interested in trying. 
I am still concerned about using a preferment and the different ambient temperatures that are always at market. 
I will think over what you are explaining.

Thanks,

Norma

Hi Norma,
I agree with Bob.  Eden organic malt extract is now a standard ingredient in all my home oven pizza formulas. 

Matt

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #136 on: January 27, 2010, 06:16:37 AM »
Matt,

Thanks for telling me you also use the Eden organic malt extract.  :)  Bob1 explained to me at Warren's Bread Making Demo he uses the liquid version, (like molasses) in his formula's.  Since if haven't used any kind of malt extract, I will have to study what the different kinds of diastolic malt can do for crust coloration.  You both already have the knowledge with using Eden organic malt extract.

Thanks,

Norma
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #137 on: January 27, 2010, 07:20:50 AM »
Norma,
I think a lot of pizza places add a little bit of sugar to get color.  Here is some detail from http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/04_Dough_ingredients/04_dough_ingredients.htm#_Toc533730325

"Effects of Sugar
First, because itís food for yeast, sugar alters the rate of fermentation. Up to 5 percent sugar speeds up fermentation. Over 5 percent begins to slow it down, however.

Second, it increases crust browning. This could allow a pizzeria to have a shorter bake time or a lower oven temperature. However, keep in mind that bake time must be long enough to insure full internal doneness, especially of that part of dough which contacts the sauce.


Third, it enhances flavor and aroma.

Fourth, white sugar produces a softer, whiter internal texture or crumb. This occurs because sugar delays the coagula≠tion of gluten and gelatinization of starch during bakingóin effect, causing the crumb to be ďless bakedĒ which, in turn, makes it more tender.

Fifth, it increases a productís shelf life by increasing its moisture retention. For pizzas that are eaten immedi≠ately, thatís of little concern.

In conclusion, each of the above conditions can be either an advantage or a draw≠back depending on what you want in your dough and crust."

The nice thing about malt is that it adds a nice flavor.  It's not truly "artisan" but it works great.  You should try experimenting with other  additives also.  Powdered milk is unigue and adds a darkening of the crust.  You may find that a combination of both can give you a truly signature pie.  In regards to non diastolic and diastolic malt, you are all ready using malted flour with the KASL and you only need to use non diastolic.  In fact, you would probably be hard pressed to get  diastolic malt in small quantity. 



Thanks,

Bob1


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #138 on: January 27, 2010, 07:50:53 AM »
Bob1,

I already tried using sugar in the Lehmann dough in some of my earlier posts.  I found they weren't necessary using a one day fermentation. By experimenting with sugar before, I found it didn't add to the taste of the crust, either.  I was using Pillsbury Balancer at the time when I added sugar.  I then moved to All Trumps, Kyrol and now KASL. 
I don't know if I try a new kind of preferment if I will have to add some kind of sugar, non diastolic, diastolic malt, or powdered milk.  Only time will tell.   ::)

Thanks,

Norma


« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 07:56:38 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2010, 07:51:26 AM »
This is what I am reading about using diastolic malt.

There are two types of malt powder available. Diastolic malt powder is allowed to develop enzymes, which digest starches into sugar. When diastolic malt is used in baked goods, it tends to result in sweeter, smoother, and higher rises.

Much more common is non-diastatic malt. This does not have enzymes but it can still impart wonderful flavor, and lovely appearance to baked goods. Non-diastatic malt is common in malted milk powder. 
      
In total, there isnít much nutritional value to malt powder. About one and half teaspoons (4 grams) have approximately 15 calories. This is comparable to sugar, which has about 16 calories per teaspoon. It is fat free, but isnít rich in vitamins. Mostly, it functions to provide extra flavoring in foods, and with diastatic malt, to help conserve yeast and rise bread. Malt affects appearance and may be desired for its ability to give nice brown crusts to bread or to cause bagels and biscuits to shine.

Here are some links about using diastolic malt:

http://www.dryit.com/diastaticmalt.html

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4276/interview-peter-reinhart

http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives/digests/v099n037.txt

http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives/digests/v099n062.txt

http://forums.chef2chef.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=550632

If you type in your browser dry diastolic malt versus wet, you will see this article on baking. It is about using diastolic malt.  You can then search, and read this article.  By using Google search, this article is on the second page.  Just click on it and then it can be read.

The student's technology of breadmaking and flour confectionery - Google Books Result
by Wilfred James Fance - 1966 - Cooking - 443 pages
Dry malt extract finds much favour with the baker because it is much easier ... Diastolic Paste. ó This is a cold water malt extract manufactured in a ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=0710090463...

I will study more about using diastolic malt.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 07:56:11 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #140 on: January 27, 2010, 08:04:27 AM »
Norma,
I am confused.  On your first reply you talked about adding sugar and that was not the true point.  Sugar can be added in many ways, sugar, honey, malt extract, etc.  All sugars react a little different based on there complexity.  So you really can not compare the sugar that you added earlier to the malt.  The malt adds flavor along with the burning sugar causing coloring of the crust.
On the second post you referred to some links about diastolic malt.  The KASL is all ready malted and if you were to add it to the lehman dough you would be changing things a whole lot.

Thanks,

Bob1   

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #141 on: January 27, 2010, 08:22:41 AM »
Bob1,

Sorry,  if I am making you confused.  The only reason I mentioned using the regular sugar, was that I had tried using sugar.  I know there are many kinds or ways of adding other ingredients that can add flavor.  I know there is no comparison with using sugar and other ingredients. 
To try and clear up about using the KASL.  When I was using bromated flours, I didnít have any problems with browning the crust.  I wanted to use KASL to get away from bromated flours.  If I had the choice, I would still be using All Trumps.  I just donít want to put my customers at risk, if for some reason I would have a gum line and all the bromates wouldnít be baked out.  I also donít want to inhale the bromated flour. 
If I do decide to use another preferment, then I will see if the preferment and KASL need other ingredients to brown the crust.

As for the links, I am not familiar with using other types of ingredients to brown the crust.  Maybe these links will also help other people understand more about using ingredients other than sugar to help get a desired crust color. 

I donít know if this helped or not, but I am just trying to explain why I am using this flour and might see a problem with crust browning if using another preferment. 


Thanks,

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #142 on: January 27, 2010, 10:53:11 AM »
First of all, I think you all mean to say "diastatic" and "nondiastatic" rather than "diastolic" or "nondiastolic". Unless, of course, you are trying to elevate each other's blood pressure :-D.

I think it is important to distinguish between a dough made by the direct method as opposed to one made from an indirect method. For a dough made using the direct method, and assuming that the flour is malted, I would have no real concerns about the residual sugar levels after a day or a few days of cold fermentation. Beyond that, I could use sugar in many of its forms, including nondiastatic barley malt syrup. In such a case, I might lean to a dry form of the barley malt because it might be easier for Norma to work with and use in the low temperature environment of the market (sometimes in the mid 40 degrees F) where she would prepare the dough. Also, I have discovered that the liquid barley malt can darken the color of the crumb as well as the outer crust. And it doesn't take a lot of barley malt syrup to produce that darker crumb color. For example, a few years ago, I made a clone of a Sbarro's NY style pizza using only 2.2% barley malt syrup. Yet, I could see the effects of the barley malt syrup on the color of the crumb. You can see what I mean from Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg40413.html#msg40413. I experienced the same crumb darkening when I made JerryMac's NY style dough formulation using barley malt syrup. In that case, the barley malt syrup was over 5%, so its effect on crumb coloration was more in evidence. This said, I do not have any problem with anyone using any form of sugar so long as it gets the job done. If Norma and her customers like a darker crumb, then that can be achieved by using barley malt syrup.

My concern with sugar and residual sugar levels is with respect to doughs made using the indirect method, as by using a preferment. Among the different forms of preferment, my concern is greater for a poolish or sponge than say, a stiffer preferment such as a biga or old dough. Liquidy preferments like poolish can be very hard on sugar and deplete it fairly quickly, and especially if the amount of flour devoted to the poolish is a large percent of the total flour. The use of diastatic malt is to make more enzymes available to extract more natural sugars from the damaged starch. The diastatic malt is typically added as part of the final mix. Didier Rosada discusses this issue at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm, with particular reference to the following:

When flour and water get incorporated together, enzyme activity starts. Some enzymes generate sugar degradation (amylase), while others provoke protein degradation (protease). 

During the pre-fermentation time, the yeast uses up a lot of the flourís sugar, especially during long fermentation time at room temperature. When this portion of flour is added back to the final dough, the overall quantity of fermentiscibles sugar is lower than what is usually available for the yeast in a straight dough method. As a result of the lower availability of sugar, it is difficult to obtain satisfactory coloration of the crust. This defect is sometimes noticeable when a high percentage of overnight poolish or sponge is used in the final dough or when the enzyme activity of the flour is on the low side. To troubleshoot this problem, 0.5% to 1% of diastatic malt (based on the total flour) can be added to the final dough.

Preferments like poolish or sponge, sometimes generate lower levels of fermentescible sugars available at the end of the pre-fermentation time. In certain cases, this can be used to our advantage. A higher quantity of preferment should be added to the final dough when working with a high level of enzyme in the flour (low falling number). By increasing the quantity of preferment, we increase the portion of the flour with less sugar available to the yeast.  In doing so we reduce a lot the fermentation activity and the reddish crust color that is usually obtained when too many enzymes are present in the flour.

More liquid preferments like poolish, because of their liquid consistency, favor enzyme activity. Amylase, but also protease, will be more active during the pre-fermentation. As a result, higher extensibility in the final dough is obtained, reducing the mixing time of the final dough and preserving it from potential over oxidation. A better extensibility is also noticeable at the shaping stage. Higher volume and more open inside are also achieved in the final product.


Until Norma actually uses a poolish or modified-poolish to make a dough, we won't know for sure what she will need. I suggested that diastatic malt might be a solution to the color problem if it becomes an issue, but it could well be that using a standard form of sugar, or possibly a combination of such a sugar and diastatic malt, could be solutions to the problem.

BTW, diastatic malt is available from different sources, including Bob's Red Mill, as shown at http://www.bobsredmill.com/malted-barley-flour.html. It is also available from Barry Farm, http://www.barryfarm.com/images/product/sugars/diastaticmalt.JPG.

Peter

Offline Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #143 on: January 27, 2010, 12:25:48 PM »
Pete,
I was only talking about using the non diastatic in the standard formula that Norma uses now for taste and ease of process.  If her pie is good now then the malt would add flavor and there is no need to use diastatic and mess with the chemistry.   I think there might be a misunderstanding.  I have tried a poolish close to what critter used in variations with two different yeasts.   One variation I did is posted earlier on reply #11.  It is not a direct comparison to a Lehman dough but I assumed because of the high hydration of both the poolish and the final dough it was good for speculation.  Considering the higher enzyme activity with the KASL my pie still had good color.  I also did a few variations with the KASL and they browned well also.  So if I was a betting man I would say that the KASL would hold up and no malt either diastaic or nondiastatic would be required, but like you say it will have to be determined if or when she tries it.  Not really worth a discusion on my part.  I am just trying to talk to her about the barley malt in the regular Lehman formula, which I have tried before.  In the past I have also tested 10% to 20% rye or wheat flour with the KASL and 1 to 2% milk powder with the 2 to 2.5% barley malt with great results.   Depending on the cook time with the later you can get great flavor.  If you get bubble in the crust, the toasted dough does wonders to step it up.  Pete I am just trying to help and open things up for discussion.  I feel that when the logistics are this tough (Health board, Environment, One day a week etc) it's time to cheat the Artisan factor and just make it work.  It's Normas call in the end, I am just trying to nudge her the easiest direction, or to just try a test batch.  I really think the shortcut will surprise her.


Thanks,

Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #144 on: January 27, 2010, 01:23:25 PM »
Bob1,

I was simply trying to shift gears from bigas and natural preferments to a poolish preferment since using a preferment with the Lehmann dough formulation was the predicate of this thread. Norma should by all means consider using nondiastatic malted products in the Lehmann dough formulation as you propose should she see merit in doing so, whether it is because of greater crust color or better crust flavor. However, in such a case, she might want to start a new thread so that we don't send this thread into an entirely different direction.

There have been several members who have used a nondiastatic malt products for pizza dough going back several years when pftaylor first discussed his use of the malted powder in his grandmother's dough recipe. Since then, we have had members use standard nondiastatic malt products, including the Carnation Original Malted Milk powder (which is in the ingredients list for the expanded dough calculating tool) and the Ovaltine Classic powder, both of which include a nondiastatic malt product (and a bunch of other things).

I will await guidance from Norma before proceeding further. She might also want to revisit Villa Roma's dough formulation at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg86108.html#msg86108. That dough formulation may not fit Norma's market conditions but it is a proven recipe. I haven't looked at relating that recipe to the Lehmann recipe but it something that might be considered at some point.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #145 on: January 27, 2010, 02:13:15 PM »
You guys have to understand, I have been off track my whole life.  It's part of my infinite charm and grace.

Thanks,

Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #146 on: January 27, 2010, 05:10:39 PM »
Peter and Bob1,

I appreciate both of you trying to help me with my learning curve in both my preferment and coloring of the crust.  Lol, Bob, I just met you Saturday and you do have charm and grace.  :)

I still would be interested in trying Reply #131 and Reply #132 on this thread to see if the poolish or modified verison of this could add to the crust flavor. 

Thanks,

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #147 on: January 27, 2010, 06:06:00 PM »
Norma,

It will take a fair amount of math and major reconstructive surgery on the recipe at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451 to come up with a proposed dough formulation for you to try out, but in the meantime can you tell me roughly what temperature you would normally be expected to encounter at the market where you would be making the (modified) poolish and the final dough, or would you be planning to make the modified poolish at home for the time being and complete the final mix at market? Also, do you have any diastatic malt on hand? Although I think some may be needed, I haven't reached a conclusion on this at this juncture. We might also decide not to use any diastatic malt and await the results before deciding on what to do next.

At this point I am contemplating a Lehmann dough with a hydration similar to what you have been using and a modified poolish that would spend three days in the refrigerator/deli case after its initial prefermentation. Would that represent a workable timetable? I would expect that the final dough from which you would make the individual dough balls (a total of five) would be kept in your deli case for about a day before using. For planning purposes, is it on Monday or Tuesday that you actually bake the pizzas?

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #148 on: January 27, 2010, 08:18:43 PM »
Norma,

It will take a fair amount of math and major reconstructive surgery on the recipe at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451 to come up with a proposed dough formulation for you to try out, but in the meantime can you tell me roughly what temperature you would normally be expected to encounter at the market where you would be making the (modified) poolish and the final dough, or would you be planning to make the modified poolish at home for the time being and complete the final mix at market? Also, do you have any diastatic malt on hand? Although I think some may be needed, I haven't reached a conclusion on this at this juncture. We might also decide not to use any diastatic malt and await the results before deciding on what to do next.

At this point I am contemplating a Lehmann dough with a hydration similar to what you have been using and a modified poolish that would spend three days in the refrigerator/deli case after its initial prefermentation. Would that represent a workable timetable? I would expect that the final dough from which you would make the individual dough balls (a total of five) would be kept in your deli case for about a day before using. For planning purposes, is it on Monday or Tuesday that you actually bake the pizzas?

Peter


Peter,

I can only imagine how much math and major reconstructive surgery might be needed to come up with a proposed dough formulation.

I would be making the poolish at market on Friday. I usually clean the oven and do other things either Thursday or Friday.  The ambient temperature can vary, like I told you before.  This past Monday, the weather was warm and the temperature at market was 58 degrees F.  We are supposed to be having a cold front come though, probably by tomorrow.  I havenít looked at the weather for Friday, next Monday or Tuesday.  The weather men arenít always predictable.  If I had to guess the temperature would be around 48 degrees F to 53 degrees F.  I do have a disc heater at market and could turn that on, so the poolish could be warmer.
No, I donít have any diastatic malt on hand.  If needed in the future, I can purchase some.
The Lehmann dough, similar hydration and modified poolish are all workable for me.  I would then incorporate the modified poolish into the dough on Monday.  The dough would then cold ferment until Tuesday, when I would use the dough to make the pizzas. 

Thanks for taking the time to go over all of this,

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #149 on: January 28, 2010, 08:42:24 PM »
Norma,

It did take some extra math and calculations but I have presented below a test dough formulation for you to try. It is based on using a classic poolish with 100% hydration but at the maximum of the total formula water, which for a classic poolish is about 80% of the total formula water. That is less than the ciabatta dough recipe, which is considerably above 100% of the total formula water, but I think it might be preferable at this point to go with about 80% for benchmark purposes and to make adjustments to that benchmark based on your results. As a percent of total dough weight, the poolish comes to about 30%. I also increased the amount of yeast to use in the poolish because of the likely cool temperature at market. I also suggest that you use much warmer water temperature, about 120 degrees F, in preparing the poolish. The added yeast should provide more fermentation activity and the warmer water should speed up the fermentation process. If you think that using your disk heater is a better option for keeping the poolish warm as it preferments, then I would use water at around room temperature. You should follow the poolish preparation and warm-up instructions given in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451.

For the basic Lehmann dough formulation, I decided on a hydration of 61%. It is quite possible that the poolish will add significant strength to the final dough because of the acidity levels so I want to compensate for that possibility by increasing the hydration slightly so as not to penalize extensibility. As you will see below, the IDY in the total dough formulation is apportioned between the poolish and the final mix.

In the interest of time in case you decide to start the experiment tomorrow, in what I have presented below I did not show all of the math to convert the basic Lehmann dough formulation to the poolish and final mix parts of the total formula. I don't see any need for you to try to replicate my math at this point but that is up to you. I also left in many of the baker's percents to allow you to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to recreate my numbers if you would like.

You will note that I did not recommend any sugar or diastatic malt for the dough formulation. If the crust flavors meet your requirements but the crusts are too light in color, which I think is a possibility because of fairly extensive poolish fermentation activity and the extended total fermentation time, we can address the crust color problem in a future experiment should you wish to proceed to the next level. 

Here is the total profile:

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
Single Ball:
1550.82 g  |  54.7 oz | 3.42 lbs
946 g  |  33.37 oz | 2.09 lbs
6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.06 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
27.14 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.86 tsp | 1.62 tbsp
15.51 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
2545.67 g | 89.79 oz | 5.61 lbs | TF = 0.08932
509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for five dough balls for five 16" pizzas; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
378.31 g  |  13.34 oz | 0.83 lbs
378.31 g  |  13.34 oz | 0.83 lbs
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
757.75 g | 26.73 oz | 1.67 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough weight.

Final Mix
 Poolish (from above):                                                        757.75 g | 26.73 oz | 1.67 lbs
Remaining Total Formula King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):
Total Formula Salt (2.31470%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3228%):
1172.51 g  |  41.36 oz | 2.58 lbs
567.69 g  |  20.02 oz | 1.25 lbs
5.07 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.68 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
27.14 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.86 tsp | 1.62 tbsp
15.51 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                                                 2545.67 g | 89.79 oz | 5.61 lbs

I think the above numbers will work but since I have never tried the dough formulation you may want to note any problem areas. You might also find it necessary to tweak the flour and/or water in the mixer bowl to achieve a final dough condition that is like what you achieve when you make your regular Lehmann dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 04:54:25 PM by Pete-zza »