Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 172949 times)

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Offline JimmyG

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #975 on: March 03, 2012, 06:36:28 PM »
Greenline,
I am truly envious that one: you have his flour, and two: you get to eat at Pizzarium. I have a quick question for you, I noticed that the taglio on the right is a little thinner than the other two, does it appear that Bonci is deliberately making pizze of various thicknesses or did the thickness of those slices happen to be a coincidence?
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #976 on: March 03, 2012, 07:55:22 PM »
Greenline

Your Pizzarium slices sure do look fantastic and am glad you scored a bag of ďPan di sempreĒ flour.   :)

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #977 on: March 03, 2012, 07:57:59 PM »
A man had talked to me awhile ago at market about jovial einkorn flour http://www.jovialfoods.com/products/einkorn-flour.html  http://store.jovialfoods.com/Organic_Einkorn_Flour_p/01100.htm and told me it made such good bread and dough.  I wonder if anyone knows if jovial einkorn flour could be mixed with spelt and another flour to get the same protein content as the flour Gabrielle uses.  Did any member ever use jovial einkorn flour in combination with other flours for a Pizzarium pizza?  I really donít remember if anyone tried einkorn flour with other flours. 

Norma

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #978 on: March 04, 2012, 09:03:44 AM »
Norma,
I found some technical information pertaining to Mulino Marino (MM) flour http://www.profumidalforno.it/portal/laboratorio/ingredienti/farina/farine_mulino_marino.  It appears the average protein content of the Pan di Sempre blended flour is 13.5%.   The MM enkir flour has a protein content of 20%, I couldn't find any info about their farro or spelt flour/. In any case, they must be blending these varieties into lower protein flours in smaller amounts to maintain 13.5% or the pure enkir flour is not sifted and they bolt it into finer particles for the Pan di Sempre.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 09:05:49 AM by JimmyG »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #979 on: March 04, 2012, 11:00:41 AM »
Norma,
I found some technical information pertaining to Mulino Marino (MM) flour http://www.profumidalforno.it/portal/laboratorio/ingredienti/farina/farine_mulino_marino.  It appears the average protein content of the Pan di Sempre blended flour is 13.5%.   The MM enkir flour has a protein content of 20%, I couldn't find any info about their farro or spelt flour/. In any case, they must be blending these varieties into lower protein flours in smaller amounts to maintain 13.5% or the pure enkir flour is not sifted and they bolt it into finer particles for the Pan di Sempre.


Jimmy,

Thanks so much for the information about the flour Gabrielle uses. I canít understand what that link means that you posted.  Is that for the blend? Where did you find out that the Pan di Sempre blended
flour average is 13.5 % protein?  Do you recall what you posted at Reply 843 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg160411.html#msg160411 about the Jovial einkorn flour having 13.333% protein?  I can purchase spelt flour near me at our local Country Store, but I am not sure if it is the Wheat Montana Farms brand or the Essential Eating Spelt.  http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/search?searchText=spelt+flour  I will have to call them to find out that information. If the Jovial einkorn flour is 13.333% protein, I donít I know how to figure out how much of a another flour (maybe pizzeria or fine durum flour) and spelt to add for an experiment.  Maybe I will do some wet gluten mass tests on the Pizzeria flour, the fine durum flour I have and also purchase some spelt and the Jovial einkorn to do wet gluten mass tests on. 

Awhile ago I thought I had found the kind of flour Gabrielle used and posted a picture of it at Reply 239  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg122180.html#msg122180  Maybe he never used that flour or since has changed.

Do you or anyone else have any other thoughts of how to decide how to go about getting a protein blended flour of 13.5% with jovial einkorn, another flour and spelt flour?

It says at this link that there is free shipping offer now if your used the code FREESHIP2012 http://www.jovialfoods.com/

Norma

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #980 on: March 04, 2012, 11:51:36 AM »
Norma,
Thanks for the link and the free shipping code. I may have to purchase some. ;D
The technical paper was one of the links on the page. The direct link to the technical paper for the Pan di Sempre is http://www.profumidalforno.it/portal/sites/default/files/marino/pandisempre.pdf

I will translate some of the paper for you:
"PRODUZIONE E USI: Farina prodotta da Cereali Biologici Italiani (grano tenero,  farro, Enkir) altamente selezionati opportunamente miscelati per ottenere una farina adatta alla preparazione di pane, pizza, pasta fresca e secca, dolci, biscotti, grissini, e tutti gli altri usi. Si specifica che questa farina è priva di aggiunte di glutine e altri miglioratori."
PRODUCTION AND USES: Italian Organic Flour produced from grains (white flour-that could be made from 00, 0, or 1, Emmer wheat, and Enkir) selected for and appropriately mixed to obtain a flour suitable for making bread, pizza, fresh and dry pasta, cakes, biscuits, bread sticks, and all other uses . We emphasize that this flour has no added gluten or other enhancers.

The next paragraph only says that the flour and equipment conform to the law.

Color: Ivory white with spots of germ
Consistency: Powdery to the touch, slightly cohesive
Odor: Typical of stone-ground wheat flour natural, free from abnormal odor (mold, fermented, etc.)
Flavor: Normal, not rancid, healthy and attractive

Moisture: 15.5
Gluten: 11.0
Alvenogram: W = 300; P/L = 0.5
Falling number: 300 sec
Protein: 13.5
Absorption: 57.5

The last few characteristics talk about aflatoxins, pests, chloroform counts.  

As far as the correct mix to get to 13.5, that is a good question. I could probably come up with an equation to get the proportion of the mixed flours to 13.5%. However, the tricky part could be what to use as a base flour (AP, bread, 00 etc) and what other flours to include into the mix to approximate the Pan di Sempre: emmer, spelt, enkir, durum etc. Since Williams Sonoma is carrying the MM brand now, I may call them up to see if they have access to the Pan di Sempre flour or if they could order it.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 12:43:40 PM by JimmyG »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #981 on: March 04, 2012, 01:01:42 PM »
Norma,
Thanks for the link and the free shipping code. I may have to purchase some. ;D
The technical paper was one of the links on the page. The direct link to the technical paper for the Pan di Sempre is http://www.profumidalforno.it/portal/sites/default/files/marino/pandisempre.pdf

I will translate some of the paper for you:
"PRODUZIONE E USI: Farina prodotta da Cereali Biologici Italiani (grano tenero,  farro, Enkir) altamente selezionati opportunamente miscelati per ottenere una farina adatta alla preparazione di pane, pizza, pasta fresca e secca, dolci, biscotti, grissini, e tutti gli altri usi. Si specifica che questa farina è priva di aggiunte di glutine e altri miglioratori."
PRODUCTION AND USES: Italian Organic Flour produced from grains (white flour-that could be made from 00, 0, or 1, Emmer wheat, and Enkir) selected for and appropriately mixed to obtain a flour suitable for making bread, pizza, fresh and dry pasta, cakes, biscuits, bread sticks, and all other uses . We emphasize that this flour has no added gluten or other enhancers.

The next paragraph only says that the flour and equipment conform to the law.

Color: Ivory white with spots of germ
Consistency: Powdery to the touch, slightly cohesive
Odor: Typical of stone-ground wheat flour natural, free from abnormal odor (mold, fermented, etc.)
Flavor: Normal, not rancid, healthy and attractive

Moisture: 15.5
Gluten: 11.0
Alvenogram: W = 300; P/L = 0.5
Falling number: 300 sec
Protein: 13.5
Absorption: 57.5

The last few characteristics talk about aflatoxins, pests, chloroform counts.  

As far as the correct mix to get to 13.5, that is a good question. I could probably come up with an equation to get the proportion of the mixed flours to 13.5%. However, the tricky part could be what to use as a base flour (AP, bread, 00 etc) and what other flours to include into the mix to approximate the Pan di Sempre: emmer, spelt, enkir, durum etc. Since Williams Sonoma is carrying the MM brand now, I may call them up to see if they have access to the Pan di Sempre flour or if they could order it.


Jimmy,

Thanks for the link to the technical paper for the specs for the Pan di Sempre.  ;D I guess I didnít look enough. 

Thanks also for the translations.  :) I appreciated that.

I would be interested in knowing is Williams Sonoma carries any of the Pan di Sempre flour.

I also think it would be really hard to be able to try blended flours to get everything right, at least for me.  :-D

Norma

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #982 on: March 04, 2012, 04:14:42 PM »
Norma,
I completely agree with you. I think this one maybe tricky to formulate.  If I can get a hold of the Pan di Sempre from Williams Sonoma, it would a least offer me a baseline for comparison against an approximated blend.  We will see what becomes of it when I call. I am seeing the website now offers the brand online for delivery http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/mulino-marino-flour/?pkey=e|mulino|1|best|0|1|24||1&cm_src=PRODUCTSEARCH||NoFacet-_-NoFacet-_-NoMerchRules-_-

If I can get a hold of the flour, I hope it is better than the Buratto. I was completely underwhelmed by that flour, especially given the price.   >:(
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #983 on: March 04, 2012, 05:09:07 PM »
Norma,
I completely agree with you. I think this one maybe tricky to formulate.  If I can get a hold of the Pan di Sempre from Williams Sonoma, it would a least offer me a baseline for comparison against an approximated blend.  We will see what becomes of it when I call. I am seeing the website now offers the brand online for delivery http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/mulino-marino-flour/?pkey=e|mulino|1|best|0|1|24||1&cm_src=PRODUCTSEARCH||NoFacet-_-NoFacet-_-NoMerchRules-_-

If I can get a hold of the flour, I hope it is better than the Buratto. I was completely underwhelmed by that flour, especially given the price.   >:(

Jimmy,

Best of luck with the new Mulino Marino Flour.  :) Let me know if you purchased some and how it works.  Thanks for the link.

Norma


Offline JimmyG

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #984 on: March 04, 2012, 05:31:46 PM »
Norma,
I called Willians Sonoma and  "no dice" on the Pan di Sempre flour at the present time. Oh well... back to the drawing board.
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Offline Greenline

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #985 on: March 04, 2012, 06:24:56 PM »
Quote from: dellavecchia
Killer score on the flour. How was the texture of the crumb - did you get it reheated or room temp?

The very first time I went to Pizzarium I tried to have some pizza at room temp but it was a bit "gummy" and difficult to chew, although still good to the taste. Since then, I always have my pizza reheated. The crumb had an "airy" texture and literally melted in my mouth, while the thin crust on the bottom provided the necessary crunch. For the first time I noticed that the crust of the bottom was thinner than what I do at home, so I'll try to work on that next time.

Quote from: JimmyG
I am truly envious that one: you have his flour, and two: you get to eat at Pizzarium. I have a quick question for you, I noticed that the taglio on the right is a little thinner than the other two, does it appear that Bonci is deliberately making pizze of various thicknesses or did the thickness of those slices happen to be a coincidence?

Wow you have very good observation skill, the slice on the right was indeed thinner than the rest. In my opinion this is just a coincidence, I've been there many times and found that the thickness has some variability even for the same type of pizza (and so does the taste by the way, sometimes it's extraordinarily good, sometimes a bit less than that).


Offline Greenline

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #986 on: March 04, 2012, 06:26:42 PM »
If I can get a hold of the flour, I hope it is better than the Buratto. I was completely underwhelmed by that flour, especially given the price.   >:(

Me too. I heard great things on the Buratto but in the end it just did not work for me, maybe it's simply a matter of taste.

Offline RamirOk

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #987 on: March 05, 2012, 04:51:24 PM »
Here is some pics of the slices that I try at pizzarium.
Salmon, burrata and potato; potato and mozzarella and pizza rossa. The one with salmon have a different dough it was darker and was more rich in flavor, I guess more farro.
Also for me was the best pizza I ever had.

And the last 2 photos because I wanted to make the most of my trip to Rome, amazing experience.

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #988 on: March 05, 2012, 11:54:27 PM »
Ramir,
   I am truly jealous. How did you like the salmon, potato and burrata slice? Sounds like a unique combo.
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Offline RamirOk

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #989 on: March 06, 2012, 12:50:42 AM »
Jimmy,
Was pretty unique and very good, I have never tried burrata before it was a little messy but amazing. The flavors were quite strong, after they reheat the slice they spray something like water. The guy said me what was that but in italian and very fast, but after the first bite my guess is that was lemon juice.

I would eat it again of course but I wouldn't eat a bigger slice because the flavors are very strong.

But that's what I like about Bonci he risks in the search for new and better flavors. In the course he make more than 20 different kinds of pizza and one of my (19) favorites have lemon zest; never imagine that on a pizza.

Offline RamirOk

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #990 on: March 11, 2012, 01:06:25 PM »
Interesting stuff, http://www.scattidigusto.it/2012/03/11/foodblogger-bonci-smonta-i-miti-della-lievitazione-a-culinaria-2012/.
If anyone could do better translation than google would be great.

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #991 on: March 11, 2012, 03:07:41 PM »
Good work on the thread everyone.  Just a side note for those that are interested.  If you have an India food mart near your home you can buy small bags of soy, and many other odd flours, for real cheap.  I mention this as Matt had soy in his mix. 

Bob


Offline BeerdedOne

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #992 on: March 11, 2012, 06:48:02 PM »
Hello!  Since visiting Pizzarium last summer I've been longing to reproduce something close to the delicious texture and taste of Bonci's pies, finally I've been inspired by the many contributors here to take a shot.

In an effort to keep it simple and work forward from the basics, I started with 100% AP Flour (10.5%), 80% hydration, 4% oil, 2% salt, .7 ADY, standard Bonci tricolore class recipe.  I used a TF of .15.   All hand mixed, 4 regeneri, technique straight out of the youtube video's:



24 hour bulk fermentation at 40F, 1 hour proof at room temp (67F), followed by a quick and gentle reshaping into a steel pan and preheated oven at 475F. Baked the pie on top of a stone for 20 min.

I'm reasonably encouraged and happy with my first attempt.  It's not mind-bendingly awesome, but pretty decent pizza.  On the good side, the pizza baked uniformly thick, and the crumb was light and tasty out of the oven, nice thin golden crunch on the bottom of the pie.  The issues I have are:

1) crumb structure could be a little more open

2) soft and delicate crumb texture and good flavor, but seems a bit dense for 0.15 TF?

3) Initially the pie was soft and yielding with decent springback.  After cooling and reheating (2hrs at room temp), the pie had a much more chewy, less yielding crumb (particularly the edges) which is not how the Bonci pies reheat at all in my experience.  Is this entirely due to it drying out at room temperature?  Perhaps I should underbake a bit if I want to cool and reheat for later consumption?

Points one and two might be the same issue, which may be under-developed gluten / flour too weak / bit of both?

It seems like the next steps for me might be to 1) use a higher protein content flour (thinking 100% Hard Spring Wheat from the nearby Bob's Red Mill)
2) increase the room temp proof time following bulk ferment from 1 hr. to more like 3-4 hours, 3) possibly remove the pizza sooner (maybe 15 minutes or so, if I plan to not top and reheat immediately).  Do these seem like reasonable next steps?




  
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 07:04:20 PM by BeerdedOne »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #993 on: March 11, 2012, 07:48:49 PM »
Points one and two might be the same issue, which may be under-developed gluten / flour too weak / bit of both?

Hello and welcome. I think you did a fantastic job on your first try. I would try a higher protein flour and more time at room temp to get the oven spring you want and a more tender crumb. If you do use a higher protein flour, though, you might want to consider using a mixer to develop the gluten. It is up to you. I look forward to seeing your experimentation and results.

John

Offline BeerdedOne

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #994 on: March 11, 2012, 08:02:17 PM »
If you do use a higher protein flour, though, you might want to consider using a mixer to develop the gluten.

Thanks, for the kind words of advice, John.  I have a KA 600 mixer.  If I were to use it, do you have any advice on how long/speed and with what attachment (paddle?) to perform the initial mix?  I skipped the mixer because the style seems to call for a gentle hands-off approach and I was afraid I'd over work the dough.

I assume that I should use the mixer to do the initial incorporation of ingredients / hydration of the dough and then continue with the stretch and fold / rigeneri steps as laid out by Bonci in his classes.  Would this be a good approach? 

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #995 on: March 11, 2012, 09:19:04 PM »
Thanks, for the kind words of advice, John.  I have a KA 600 mixer.  If I were to use it, do you have any advice on how long/speed and with what attachment (paddle?) to perform the initial mix?  I skipped the mixer because the style seems to call for a gentle hands-off approach and I was afraid I'd over work the dough.

I assume that I should use the mixer to do the initial incorporation of ingredients / hydration of the dough and then continue with the stretch and fold / rigeneri steps as laid out by Bonci in his classes.  Would this be a good approach?  

I guess it depends on the flour you use. If it is a strong flour, you might want to do 3 minutes on speed 4 after you incorporate and rest for 20 minutes. Use the dough hook. The dough may start to look smoother and drag long strands from the side of the bowl. Give it another 1-2 minutes on the slowest speed and see if it starts to get even less sticky. Once you have this done, let it rest for 20 minutes in bulk and then stretch and fold. Then see if you get the dough even smoother. You may need another stretch and fold - maybe not. At this point, if the flour is strong enough, you might even go 48 hours in the fridge - again, it just depends on what you use. Let the flour be your guide for the workflow, not the other way around.

John
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 09:22:00 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline RamirOk

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #996 on: March 11, 2012, 09:20:22 PM »
Hi BeerdedOne and welcome to the forum and I agree that you do a great looking pie for your first try, I would change the TF. Bonci use a TF of .133, depending of the topping of the pizza it can rise more and he also left the dough to proof for 2 hours. You need to be very gentle with the dough before you put it on the pan and with a higher protein content flour I'm sure your going to see a lot improvement in your next pizzas.

Good look and keep sharing your results!

Offline BeerdedOne

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #997 on: March 11, 2012, 09:49:33 PM »
Thanks, RamirOK, I will definitely try a longer proof before the bake and make adjustments to the TF based on the results.

John, I'll try the KA for the next pie, thanks for the suggestions!  I don't know enough about how to 'feel' gluten development to know when I've reached the right point to stop with the stretch and folds.  However, I know what the last dough felt like and based on the resulting pie, it seems like I need just a wee bit more gluten development to get a more open crumb, so i'll work it just a bit more this next time.

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #998 on: March 11, 2012, 09:51:39 PM »
Welcome O Bearded One.

I contend you can get a hell of spring with AP at 80% Hydration.  Though a stronger flour will certainly work, as noted above.

Quote
24 hour bulk fermentation at 40F, 1 hour proof at room temp (67F), followed by a quick and gentle reshaping into a steel pan and preheated oven at 475F. Baked the pie on top of a stone for 20 min.

You may want to consider a longer time at room temp after you take it out of the fridge.  I don't know what others do, but I let it come to room temp for an hour or so, take it out of the container and gently fold, cover and let sit for an hour, then form and into the pan.  But that is just me.

Great first attempt!  Keep us posted....

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #999 on: March 11, 2012, 11:56:21 PM »
Welcome,
It looks like you are getting some great results already.
Quote
It seems like the next steps for me might be to 1) use a higher protein content flour (thinking 100% Hard Spring Wheat from the nearby Bob's Red Mill)
2) increase the room temp proof time following bulk ferment from 1 hr. to more like 3-4 hours, 3) possibly remove the pizza sooner (maybe 15 minutes or so, if I plan to not top and reheat immediately).  Do these seem like reasonable next steps?
I don't know how much more I could add, it sounds like you have already gotten some good advice from the other members. The only thing I might add is to shoot for a flour with a protein content between 13-14%. As myself and one of the other members previously discussed at reply 978 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg174864.html#msg174864I the Mulino Marino brand appears to be higher in protein both for their standard white flours and their mixes. I look forward to seeing your results.
Jim
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