Author Topic: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique  (Read 54521 times)

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Offline Steve

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N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« on: May 20, 2004, 12:47:52 PM »
Found this at:
http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/1207


PMQ Think Tank

Posted By: pizzashark
Date: 5/7/03 20:10

Dough:

10 LB High Gluten Flour (Gold Medal Full Strength works well)
8 oz Cottonseed Oil
3 oz salt
1 oz Baker's yeast (beer yeast)
84 oz Water

Combine yeast, oil, and 1 cup flour with water at 100-110 degrees. Mix 2 minutes and then let rest 15-20 minutes until foamy. You can add some sugar to enhance the shelf life of the dough but I don't recommend it as the sugar content will brown the crust too fast under the high heat.

Mix salt (we used Diamond superfine crystals) in with the flour seperately. Then add flour/salt mixture and mix until well kneeded and developed... We would kneed on low speed for almost 30 minutes. I know that sounds like a great deal of time but that's the way we did it and the dough would stretch with the utmost of ease. In short, we beat the crap out of the dough.

Portion balls, cover and refrigerate for 8 hours. Proof at room temperature for 2 hours prior to hand stretching.

Bake at 550 degrees 5-6 minutes on a pre-heated hearth.

This is a somewhat sticky dough and requires flour to be applied before stretching and such. The high moisture content in this dough is necessary due to the hearth bake and the high heat it is exposed to. This is an authentic N.Y. style crust. Thin and crispy with a puffed edge. The pizza peel should be dusted with a good deal semolina flour to allow easy placement in the oven. If your dough is still sticking to the peel you are using too much sauce, aren't topping it fast enough, or not stretching such that you have a 1/8" center. In short... Get it into the oven FAST! Too much sauce is ALWAYS a bad thing when it comes to NY Style Pizza. You are "painting" the crust with sauce... that's all.

The dough will hold refrigerated for 3 days. When you begin to see black dots appearing on the dough you know the yeast is beginning to die... Black dots are not bad and they won't show up after baking but you have about a day left to use it.

If you get bubbling of the dough during cooking it is usually because the dough did not come up to room temperature before it was stretched. Cold dough tends to bubble.

Sauce:

2 #10 cans of Stanislaus Full Red Fresh Pack
1 # 10 can of water
3 oz fresh grated romano cheese
Add Oregano, Basil, Ground Black Pepper, etc. as you see fit. If you want the best dried spices buy them from Penzeys. They have a website and will quote bulk prices. If you can get fresh spend the money and blow them away.

One thing about dried oregano... Unlike Basil, Dried oregano takes time to release its flavor... More time than a 6 minute bake will allow. Take your oregano and mix it with hot water from the sauce recipe and heat it to a boil for a while. Then add that mix to your sauce. Basil can go in anytime because it releases its flavor very quickly during the baking. Also add some citric acid or lemon juice to really bring up the fresh tomato taste. A little salt won't hurt but I don't recommend it as the cheese and toppings usually have plenty. When you bake at 550 degrees on a hearth you are searing the entire top of the pizza into one great blend of flavor. Salt from the cheese and toppings will flow through the pizza.

Use a high quality cheese. You spend more but it costs you less as you are using less. You want this crust to be tasted, not burried. Also... before you place the cheese on the pizza give the center 3" or so an extra dash of that grated Romano. The sharp taste of the Romano in the first few bites will stick with your customer as they eat their way to the edge.

I wish you all the best with your pizza ventures and hope this can help some people. In time I will have my patented brick conveyor oven available for everyone to test and I welcome all inquires at my e-mail address.

Until then...

Passionate about N.Y. Style Pizza...

Pizza Shark
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Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2004, 07:57:02 PM »
 :)Wow thanks for finding this Steve.

The point about cooking the Oregano was very interesting since I just started going to cold uncooked sauce since my 6 in 1 came.
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Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2004, 07:59:33 PM »
I was just reviewing the above recipe and I was just wondering if it is possible for only 84 oz. of water to be used with 10lbs of flour. Seems like it would be too dry. ???
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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2004, 10:40:32 PM »
While were still talking about dough, how do you guys mix your ingredients together? I usually mix the sugar, yeast and water first and then add this solution to the flour and salt. But in Reinharts book it says to mix all of them at the same time. Is there really a difference?

Offline canadave

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2004, 11:48:43 PM »
RoadPizza, you mean add the yeast/water/sugar solution last to the flour/salt, right?  Or did you mean add the water and sugar to the flour/salt, then add the yeast separately to the mix?

Offline canadave

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2004, 11:27:51 AM »
Thanks RP...last related question: and this is for any type of yeast, right? "Quick-rise", ADY, etc.?  Or does the type of yeast make a difference?

The reason I'm so persistent is because I'm on the verge of making a new batch of dough (with my new weigh-scale, bought after reading the positive comments of others on this forum!) :)

Dave
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 11:29:07 AM by canadave »

Offline canadave

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2004, 08:33:24 PM »
Thanks for all the info...I'll see if I can get my hands on a thermometer too.

Dave

Offline Randy

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2004, 01:36:27 PM »
SAF yeast has instructions on the package that recommends mixing the fast rise yeast with 2/3 the flour and add the water at 120- 130F.  I have been using this method for several years now without a problem.  I also mix the sugar with the hot water that is something I learned from the forum.
 ;D
Randy

Offline Pizzaholic

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2004, 09:41:47 AM »
Randy
I hate to guess your method of making dough, so,  for the sake of the forum could you post a step by step dough recipe(If you havent already, if so give us the thread??)
You seem to have a real grasp on the technique that yeilds a good dough.
Pizzaholic

Offline Randy

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2004, 10:31:18 AM »
Sorry RoadPizza, if I messed up your thread on this.   I was not questioning your expertise in my reply only noting the way I do it on a small batch basis.
Interesting discussion.
 8)
Randy


Offline Randy

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2004, 10:55:29 AM »
« Last Edit: May 27, 2004, 10:57:41 AM by Randy »

Offline canadave

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2004, 11:41:53 AM »
Randy,

So if I'm reading that webpage right, it's saying the water temp going in should be around 55-60 degrees?

--Dave

Offline Randy

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2004, 11:49:41 AM »
Dave, I'm not sure because I think I read some where that the dough temp should be 82 F before going in the cooler.  I have never applied this information to myu pizza dough but i think I will based on what RoadPizza said.

Randy

Offline Pierre

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2004, 03:03:59 PM »
Dave, I'm not sure because I think I read some where that the dough temp should be 82 F before going in the cooler.  I have never applied this information to myu pizza dough but i think I will based on what RoadPizza said.

I think it was Tom Lehmann, the Dough Doctor who recommends that "off the hook" dough temp for several types of crust. I've spoken to a Master Baker here in Germany a while ago and he recommended a temperature between 78°F and 85°. In general Bakeries usually use their dough relatively quickly, mostly as soon as the 1st rise.

But what RoadPizza recommends (cold water) is correct if the dough should be retarded for a longer period of 1 or 2 Days so the dough does ferment too much and not get an overly strong Ferment-taste or odor. The final rise is done when the dough boxes are pulled from the fridge and are soon to be used in the assembly line or prep-table....

Another thing the Master Baker mentioned is that you should try to use as less yeast as possible in your recipes. While a yeast taste may be wanted in some recipes, it is best to cut back as much you can. Yeast is an Aroma eater.It will take away alot of the aroma found in Wheat. In Italy they use much less yeast than that what is used here in Germany or even the USA.

The recommendations on the packaging of the yeast companies state here 1 pkg (7gr or 0.25 oz) per 500gr (1 pound) of flour is too much. The Italians use somewhere between a 1/4 to 1/2 pkg per 1kg flour.

I have not yet experimented with that low a yeast content, but will try next time with my New York Recipe.

Pierre

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2004, 04:10:04 PM »
Pierre I have not noticed personally a yeast smell in my pizza dough that goes right in the cooler but I have noticed that tendency on same day rise breads.  I use a package for a pound of flour only out of  not having to measure the yeast.  I have tried Peter Rinehart’s recipe that uses much less yeast than mine but could tell a notable difference as compared to my recipe.  But then again, your referenced professionals and Peter’s book are professionals and I bow to their expertise.
In a bit of last minute research I found this warning on the SAF site:
·   Add cold liquids to yeast mixture. A high powered food processor heats ingredients as it vigorously blends. Using cold liquids moderates the temperature of the dough to within the ideal 77-80ºF range.
Randy

Offline Pierre

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2004, 04:26:53 PM »
Right Randy, that's what's called the friction Factor, that all professional bakers need to account for when mixing their doughs. Professional Equipment has a detailed listing of frictions for the different attachments used. the water temperature is adjusted so that the "off the hook" temperature of the dough is within specifications....

For private or household food processors, everyone needs to find out for themselves the temperature increase due to friction or just use trial and error.

The Master Baker I spoke to works for one of the major Flour producers here in Germany. He was very talkative and glad to pass on his knowledge. He stated also that baking is not cooking. Baking is a bit more technological, meaning that many parameters have to met or kept to get just the results one wants for a given recipe. If you're off a bit on one of them, your final bake will not be the same as expected.

Pierre

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2004, 02:51:14 PM »
just prepared a New Yorker Crust using on 1/4 teaspoon (1,25ml) of Yeast to see if there is a difference in taste. Let's see what happens in the oven if the Crust still puffs up like I want.

Let you know later.....

Pierre

Offline Randy

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2004, 04:49:56 PM »
Interesting test, I look forward to the results.  How much sugar did you use if any?

Randy

Offline Pierre

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2004, 06:10:47 PM »
The results are in....

In my Recipe I usually used about 3/4 Tsp Dry active Yeast for 250 gr of Flour. I also use 1 Tbsp Sugar, but added an extra 1 Tsp this time to make sure the yeast gets a better start.

The dough took about 1/2 hour to start rising (not much longer than usual). The rise was in all just about the same in the 3 hours I gave it as I get when using more yeast.

The edge of the crust puffed up just the same in the oven as when using more yeast. The taste of the crust was different, the texture was very good just as usual with some large pores and some small.

Randy, I believe your recipe for New Yorker Crust has more yeast than mine, It might be interesting to see what you think about the taste when using a small amount of yeast. The difference should be greater in your recipe than in mine.

I think I will make 2 batches next time and test side by side.

Pierre

I'll post a picture tomorrow.


Offline Pierre

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2004, 03:30:57 PM »
here's the picture. Like I said, no difference in baked crust.

Pierre
« Last Edit: May 30, 2004, 03:32:16 PM by Pierre »