Newbie to Natural Starters

[Matthew]

A Pizza Cu A Pumarola,

I have no doubt that Matt has been nice and helpful to you, I wish I could have said the same about him towards me. If he wants to challenge what I said about the dough he can go and do his own research himself, I know I am absolutely correct because I am connected with some of the best pizzaiolos in Italy and some in the US and when I described the dough to them they all agreed on the same thing. Some pizzerias do not offer the best product all they are interested is $$$ no matter where you go. I went to Pizzeria Fresca before I went to Roberto, the pizza was great, I have been at Bianco's numerous times always great, never gummy. Just last month I gave my friend pizzaiolo from venice a tip about his neapolitan dough, his wife tried it, she said the dough turned out softer and more flavorful, she also added that her orders increased quite a bit and she appreciated my advice. They have been in business for 12 years! If I am not certain about something I do not open my mouth. Next month I'll be getting my spiral mixer from Italy and I will be practicing on how to make PIZZA VENETA, probably nobody in this forum has ever heard about it. Sometime ago I was able to get the recipe that Gabriele uses for pizza romana  but I have been holding off until I get a decent mixer. I have a friend pizzaiolo in the US that went to Italy to a master teacher to learn how to make pizza romana and paid $3000 for a week. So I know which doors I can knock if I need any help.                                                 

With Norma's permission I would like to reply to yet another one of your meaningless & irrelevant posts.

I'm just curious on how you can give your so called pizzaiolo friend advice on how to improve his product when you don't even have a WFO.  I also find it hard to believe that you, of all people, are privy to Gabriele's secret recipe.  I'm sure that since you & Gabriele are so tight he gave you some of his starter as well.  I'm going to Rome in March & plan on visiting Pizzarium, so I will be sure to say hi to him for you.  If you are as good as you say/think you are, you would be able to reproduce his product by hand without the use of a spiral mixer as he has demonstrated in several of his videos.  As far as your "PIZZA VENETA" goes, your right, I don't know what it is, nor do I care.  Unlike you, I never claimed to be an expert on all pizza styles.  Also, why would your friend spend $3000 & go all the way to Italy to learn how to make pizza romana when he could of learned it from you?  What I find ironic about all of this is this is that with all your self claimed expertise & knowledge on pizza you have failed to provide any pictures of your masterpieces.  The only pictures that you have ever posted were taken from the internet.  I'm thinking that if you want to gain some respect & recognition on this forum you may want to hold off on the spiral mixer & invest in a digital camera.  BTW, the picture below is from Pizza Fresca & unless I'm seeing things, it clearly shows the gum layer that I originally spoke of.  If I was you, I would talk to them about that, who knows, it may improve their business.

Matt

[norma427]

ninapizza23,

I don’t profess to knowing anything about making pizza.  I am here to learn and share with others, what I have learned.  The reason I am trying new ideas and experimenting is to learn what I can.  In my opinion, there is not one person on this forum that will state they know everything there is to know about making any kind of pizza.  Any kind of pizza making is a continuous learning and a journey that will never end. 
I don’t know what your purpose is in stating you know all these things and then not sharing with others.  Does this mean you know more than all the members on this forum?  After reading your posts, I sometimes wonder what the purpose was of your posting and being secretive.  If you know all you profess to know, then that is great.  If seems to me that you don’t really want to learn from others or share any information.
As for my personal experiences on this forum, it is open and sharing.  I have learned many ideas and recipes from others.  Many people have helped me.  I will gladly do the same in return. 
Can you tell me why you think you know more than other people on this forum?

Thanks,

Norma

[Infoodel]

Norma,

Update on my starters:
Remember when we were discussing about how a starter changes over months of feeding? Well my two(ish) month old starter just started taking on some straw/hay like aromas in the last few days. Neat!
The rye had a few problems about a week ago so I moved it down from 133% to 100% and it seems to have stabilised again.
Cheers,

Toby

[norma427]

Norma,

Update on my starters:
Remember when we were discussing about how a starter changes over months of feeding? Well my two(ish) month old starter just started taking on some straw/hay like aromas in the last few days. Neat!
The rye had a few problems about a week ago so I moved it down from 133% to 100% and it seems to have stabilised again.
Cheers,

Toby

Toby,

I remember how you talked about starters changing over time.  Could you tell me what the straw/hay like aromas are likely to produce in the tastes of either bread or pizza?  I am interested in learning all I can about how starters change and what results you will get from using starters. 
The one starter I did add 5 grams of wine to, still has a wine smell.   
After attending Warren's Artisan Bread Making Demo, yesterday, I think this week, I am going to try to make some kind of bread with one of the starters. 

Thanks again for keeping me updated on your starters! 

Norma

[Infoodel]

Toby,

I remember how you talked about starters changing over time.  Could you tell me what the straw/hay like aromas are likely to produce in the tastes of either bread or pizza?  I am interested in learning all I can about how starters change and what results you will get from using starters. 
The one starter I did add 5 grams of wine to, still has a wine smell.   
After attending Warren's Artisan Bread Making Demo, yesterday, I think this week, I am going to try to make some kind of bread with one of the starters. 

Thanks again for keeping me updated on your starters! 

Norma

Hmmm... not sure that I can tell you exactly how it influences the final product - it very much depends on the bread or pizza dough you are making (and how much starter you use).  I guess it's part of the mystery. I'm just glad my starter is taking on more character now in addition to 'sour + yeasty'.
I've got some whole wheat levain (made from my white starter) fermenting at the moment - hoping to make some loaves if I'm still awake when it's ready. 

Cheers,

Toby

[norma427]

Hmmm... it very much depends on the bread or pizza dough you are making  I guess it's part of the mystery. 

Cheers,

Toby

Toby,

I tried an experiment dough with rye-high gluten-with extra gluten starter.  I wanted to mix all the ingredients by hand like Warren was talking about in his bread class and see what happened.  I also wanted to try out my pizza stone I purchased with money I received from Christmas.  Although this didn't turn out the way I wanted it to, it was still good.  I will post the rest of the pictures and the way I went about making the dough under Sicilian.

Norma

[Infoodel]

Wow. That is awesome Norma. I like hand mixing...not that I have a choice since I have no mixer

Cheers

Toby

[norma427]

Toby,

Thanks for the compliment.  I don't have a mixer here at home either.  Only a Hamilton Beach hand mixer.  I think you can get great dough by mixing by hand.  After hearing Warren talk about mixing by hand, I thought this would be a good starting point to try that method.

Thanks again for helping me with the starter.  I never could have made this pie without your help. 

Norma

[norma427]

Here are what the family looks like today.  I plan on making something with one of them this weekend.
Three of these starters are still in the refrigerator.

Norma

[norma427]

Another pizza made with one of these starters.

Thanks,

Norma

[NY pizzastriver]

Hey Norma, nice looking pies! Did they taste any better than say the Lehmann with preferment? I ask because the main reason I never got into starters, absolute confusions aside, was the consensus seems to be no point unless your doing Neapolitan pizza, i.e. real high temps.  You have quite a collection going there! Watch out for the hooch! (I don't even know what hooch is, nor do I get any of this at all, so hooch up!)

I'm glad and proud you have ventured over here. This is where real mastery takes place, Bill hangs out here a a lot, nuff said. You do have a high temp oven, so you go girl! Keep us posted. When you make these in 2 minutes flat let me know! (pic below)

The below pic was taken off Jeff Varasano's site. I sadly tried to start there to learn pizza making, but once I learned pseudo-pizza making I never dared to go back. 

If you have gone the 'starter route' though, it should help a lot.
http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm

[norma427]

NY pizzastriver,

The pies I have been making with the starters are made at home.  I am just trying using a starter, so I will learn more about them.  As for the taste of these pies, they are altogether different than the Lehmann dough with or without preferment.  The recent pies with starters are more like a foccacia.  My home oven will only max out at 450 degrees F, unless I would turn on the broiler.

I haven’t ventured into the kind of pizza Jeff Varasano makes.  Maybe some day I will. 

When I get this figured out using different formula’s, then I will go on to different kinds of pizza.

Good to see you are making pizza again, 

Thanks,

Norma

[coffeemoon]

Interesting tutorial (it's german origin was apparent from the section on DIN numbers )  - However I am concerned when it mentions adding a little yeast and salt to the initial starter. Um...without going into a long discourse - that's just plain...wrong! Actually that whole section is a bit questionable.
Otherwise some good points to be drawn from that document.

Toby

Hi everyone.
I just spotted this thread. coffeemoon is my website, and those of you familiar with it know that the translation is still pretty much in progress. 42 pages take a while, especially if you want to do it right...

Top of my head, the only place where the text (which is a based on a pdf version which the author Martin Stoldt of der-sautertei.de sent to me) mentions adding yeast is the first ever bread you bake from a starter culture that you created from scratch. The cultures are still young and the yeasts don't have the same raising power as an old and established sourdough - after securing your storage leaven, you MAY add some yeast to the bread dough, if you're concerned that your bread ends up a little on the heavy side.

The text explicitly warns that adding yeast to a living sd culture will kill it over a period of a few days, as the industrial baker's yeast kill off the wild yeasts in the sd. Green fur ensues.

Salt: Again, the only place where you add anything other than flour or water is the to-be-baked dough. You've secured your storage leaven, everything else left on the worktop is destined for the oven where it will die once the temperature in the dough reaches 40*C. So what you add at this point is of no concern to the longevity of the sd.

Salt is actually a very important ingredient, which can not be missed. It triggers a required chemical balance in the to be baked dough, that ensures the proper formation of the "bubbles", those lovely glazed looking spongy but firm structures that give the baked bread its firmness/softness. Again, this is added to the to-be baked dough, and never to your storage leaven, as salt inhibits the propagation of yeast.

Any other questions folk, fell free to leave comments/questions on my site and I'll answer it to the best of my abilities. And if I get a chance, I'll finally finish off the translation of the original text as well.

Hope this helps,
kind regards,
coffeemoon

[norma427]

Welcome coffeemoon,

I think it was Essen1 (Mike) that recommended your site in making a starter.  Do you have a forum?  After reading over articles on your site, I find different things you have said, interesting.
Although you recommend getting a sourdough culture to make your own sourdough, you go on to tell about making your own culture with flour and water.

If you want and have time could you please elaborate more on these topics?
                        

The onset of souring can even happen all by itself  (”spontaneous leavening”), when water and flour are left to rest in a warm place. This is the real cause and original form of creating sourdough cultures.


To make a sourdough you will need only three ingredients:

    * Flour
    * Water and
    * a sourdough culture of 50-100g

            
 Suitable types of flour

Beginner should be aiming to use Wheat or Spelt and Rye flour, as these types are most suitable for spontaneous leavening

A special form is the Emmer Wheat, which has a hard grain. It is only used for a certain few types of bread (Baguette, Ciabatta) and requires long resting periods, making it unsuitable for main stream baking as it has a hard and glass like structure. It is predominantly grown for semolina and pasta production.

Rye is almost completely free of gluten, thus virtually free of “dough-glue”,  but it’s grain possesses sufficient amount of starch.

This is why it is harder although not impossible to bake bread purely from rye flour. Additionally the protective enzyme “Phytic Acid” in rye flour inhibits gelatinization in the dough.

This enzyme is inhibited in acidic environments (low pH value), which is ideally provided for by the sour-dough (as well as yeast which contribute to loosening of the dough.) Another possibility to bake with rye flour is utilizing an acidic liquid (buttermilk, lemon juice, kefir, vinegar, etc) to stop phytic acid working.
            

               
Hard and wafer thin, small hard grains or powder


When you pour a liquid sourdough  thinly on baking paper and leave open to dry, you will get wafer thin sourdough sheets which will remain usable for many years. (We will be using this method later ourselves to make a “secure dry copy” of your dough.) You can break the sheets up to get granules the size of semolina. To regenerate this into storage leaven we add the same amount of lukewarm water and leave it to rest for 4-5 hours, it doesn’t matter of the granules have not dissolved completely,we will begin feeding the dough, and 12 hours later the granules will have dissolved.


Thanks, your insight’s are helpful,

Norma

Does anyone have information about this study that was done: It was done to see what the roles of starch granules in the expansion of doughs during baking was investigated using artificial flours made from dry vital wheat gluten and wheat starch, potato starch, or tapioca starch.


http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1225601

Norma

[coffeemoon]

Norma,

In principle it's dead easy. There are two scenarios, either you can get your hands on a sd culture or you need to make one from scratch. Once you have made it all info is the same, as you now dealing with a live culture.

Of course it's far easier if you can get your hands on a stable culture, this is why its recommended. But there's no "real" reason not make your own from scratch.

Making it: some parts of the bran in rye flower (and other cereals) contain all micro-organisms necessary to make a sourdough. So all that is needed is flour water and time. For details see my site. It is not recommended to use wholemeal (whole grain flour) as the outer layers of the bran contain additional micro-organisms that will make it harder to get the sd started. You may have to try a lot of times before becoming successful using wholemeal flour, equally, plain white flour has had all parts of the grain removed apart from the starch body, know as the endosperm. No barn, no micro-organisms, no sourdough.

I know it's a lengthy read, but I believe that having insight into how things work make it easier. For the enthusiast I'd recommend to have good old read, it'll clear most things up.

To those who commented on flour types: Yes several European countries use flour types, which makes instructions dead easy, as the flour types are de facto milling standards. In the English speaking realm it becomes a lot harder - I've written to most flour mills in the UK and had only vague and outright useless answers. For the benefit of those familiar with the type system, I've kept the types in the english version - bear in mind that flour descriptions can vary across countries as well. There is no reason to believe that "Strong white bread flour" in the UK will be called the same in the US, especially if you realise that even within the UK the same name of flour will vary in content between different producers.

kind regards,

coffeemoon

[norma427]

coffeemoon,

Thank you for all your explanations.    I will read you site more and maybe other members that are thinking about using starters, will also be interested.
When learning about using starters and trying my first starters, I used Hodgson Mill Old-Fashioned 100 % Stone Ground All Natural Rye Flour.  The rye starter is now fully activated and sleeping in the fridge.  I did also start other starters using the rye first and then adding other flours, until I have some white flour starters.  This whole process is interesting.  Four starters are still being feed.  They each have their own aroma.
In comparsion, it is like capturing wild yeast also from your own setting.  The starters I have tried in making pizza have worked out well so far.  I have to experiment more and see what the experiments yield. 

Hope to see more posts from you and also some pictures of results you have achieved. 

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions,
Regards,

Norma

[coffeemoon]

Interesting tutorial (it's german origin was apparent from the section on DIN numbers )  - However I am concerned when it mentions adding a little yeast and salt to the initial starter. Um...without going into a long discourse - that's just plain...wrong! Actually that whole section is a bit questionable.
Otherwise some good points to be drawn from that document.

Toby

Toby, I'm Wolfgang, I run coffeemoon.eu and translated the pages. I feel I have to straighten a few things up. As the original text in German the English translation does not suggest adding baker's yeast to sourdough as this would kill the dough.

There is one exception. If you start a dough from scratch, without a starter, the yeasts are quite weak and the first loaf would be very hard because it doesn't raise sufficiently. So, after you have put aside your starter batch for the next loaf, the suggestion is to add some yeast to the bread recipe only to help it raise. As your starter batch is taken off before you add salt, spices or any other additives, only the one-off bread would be helped along with yeast.

DIN Types:
The original text is written in German for the domestic webuser. DIN Types are practical because the standardise the milling process and you can buy any brand flour and expect a very similar result. If have tried to come up with equivalents for the UK market, as I don't know how flour naming conventions in other English speaking countries. I contacted a number of UK mills and put the question to them only to be told that they mill "for quality" which is a useless piece of information.
So for the benefit of those familiar with the mineral content descriptors (DIN Types, French/Italian/Swiss Numberings) and because it is good translation practice, I added the original paragraph in addition to an explanatory box. Feel free to write to the flour mill you buy from and ask them for any mineral content analysis that they may have.

Hope this helps,

any other question, feel free to leave a comment on coffeemoon, or contact me at wolfgang dot haak at coffeemoone dot eu

regards,
Wolfgang