Author Topic: Newbie to Natural Starters  (Read 22811 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2010, 12:25:20 AM »




ninapizza23,

Is the article you were referring to?  It was on forum.egullet, but I couldn’t get the link to work, but copied and pasted what was said.  I think it is reply #38 that Pizza Napoletana talks about Crisceto and how it is made.  Posted Sept. 08, 2006 Pizza Napoletana says: tiny bit of Crisceto (wild yeast), medium strenght flour, water, sea salt. Mixed in a special way, high hydration dough, long fermentation/maturation at room temperature and finaly but not least, baked in the very special Neapolitan Pizza Oven.

If you look though these posts, you will be able to see it.

Norma

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 03:33 PM
about the Naples at table recipe:

That is the traditional recipe, fried, candied fruit etc...

my preparation is quite differenet and you end up with a choccolate ball, like a profitterole....

Great!

About the pizza: I grow my own "piennolo" variety tomatoes, and when I have these I could put them on pizza. But rather then normal tomatoes (the round supermarket variety) or salads tomatoes, I better use good canned San Marzano.

Ciao

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#32 User is offline   mrbigjas

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 08:58 PM

Pontormo, on Sep 7 2006, 01:17 PM, said:

mrbigjas, on Sep 7 2006, 01:07 PM, said:
oh man, now i'm inspired--i may have to make a little pilgrimage to two amy's this month.  it's almost worth putting up with the wait and the screaming kids and whatnot to get some of that pie.  i wish we had a place that good in philadelphia...
View Post

Well, now you have one yourself :laugh: . Yes, 2 Amy's is the reason I had to qualify what I said about Paradiso.

Really, not that good in Philly? Too "Americanized"?
View Post



here in philadelphia, we do have a few places that have wood ovens, but they don't hit that peak of genius that 2 amys does.

tacconelli's is famous, but they have an oil fired oven. rembrandt's has a wood oven but overtops their pies. mama palma's has a wood oven but is missing ... something. not sure what. either way, they don't reach that pinnacle that two amy's does when they're on (my last couple visits involved outstanding pizzas, but not the transcendent moment that my first visit did).

but anyway, i'll see what i can recreate at home this month.

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#33 User is offline   Pizza Napoletana

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 01:39 AM
View Post

[/quote]


here in philadelphia, we do have a few places that have wood ovens, but they don't hit that peak of genius that 2 amys does.

View Post

[/quote]

Why don't you organise a trip to Pittsburgh from Philly?

I believ at Il Pizzaiolo you will find one of the very best pizza in america...

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#34 User is offline   Andrew Fenton

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 04:23 AM
Okay, maybe this should go into the "absurdly simple cooking questions", but what's the importance of a wood-fired oven? I mean, heat is heat, right?

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#35 User is offline   mrbigjas

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 04:50 AM
the impression i've always gotten is that a wood fired oven can maintain a higher temperature than a regular oven. those gas ovens that are the norm top out around 600 or something; wood regularly reaches 900. and then there are the dudes who throw a shovel of sawdust on the fire when the pizzas go in to get the super blast of smoky heat...

anyway, i don't know; i'm not one of the super purist types. i've made pretty good pizza here at home--not like that stuff, but good enough for government work, as they say.

PN, with a three week old baby here i have to admit that we're not up for the six hour drive to pittsburgh... but the in-laws do live in DC.

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#36 User is offline   NYC Mike

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 04:58 AM

Pizza Napoletana, on Sep 8 2006, 04:39 AM, said:
View Post



here in philadelphia, we do have a few places that have wood ovens, but they don't hit that peak of genius that 2 amys does.

View Post

[/quote]

Why don't you organise a trip to Pittsburgh from Philly?

I believ at Il Pizzaiolo you will find one of the very best pizza in america...
View Post

[/quote]

This I can agree with. I travel alot for work and I always try to find a great pizza for my dinner after I land from the airport. In Pitt. I had pizza from there (airport cabbies are hit and miss :raz: )and it was once of the best I've ever had.


The only thing I am not loving about the whole wood fire oven movement in pizza is that many places severly burn or scar the bottoms too much so the char overwhelms the rest of the pie. Perhaps they aren't cleaning their oven properly, I don't know.

This post has been edited by NYC Mike: 08 September 2006 - 05:01 AM
-Mike & Andrea

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#37 User is offline   danlepard

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:40 AM

Pizza Napoletana, on Sep 7 2006, 01:43 PM, said:
Posted Image


What I would give to have one pizza of this calibre here in the UK. Our pizzas are uniformly awful, nothing to match even the middle-rated ones in New York. Here they're all tough, doughy, heavy crusted saucers over-topped and lacking that blisteringly scorched edge.

Pizza Napoletana, that is a mighty fine crust. Is the dough quite mature and/or soft when you bake it?

Dan

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 07:18 AM

danlepard, on Sep 8 2006, 06:40 AM, said:

Pizza Napoletana, on Sep 7 2006, 01:43 PM, said:
Posted Image


What I would give to have one pizza of this calibre here in the UK. Our pizzas are uniformly awful, nothing to match even the middle-rated ones in New York. Here they're all tough, doughy, heavy crusted saucers over-topped and lacking that blisteringly scorched edge.

Pizza Napoletana, that is a mighty fine crust. Is the dough quite mature and/or soft when you bake it?

Dan
View Post



Hi Dan,

we have talked in the past regarding some italian starters.... I am based in UK

Anyway, After 6 years studying and researching this subject, I am confident to have re-created the Authentic Pizza Napoletana has it was made in 1700s Naples...

tiny bit of Crisceto (wild yeast), medium strenght flour, water, sea salt. Mixed in a special way, high hydration dough, long fermentation/maturation at room temperature and finaly but not least, baked in the very special Neapolitan Pizza Oven.

It is a dough that very difficult to control and handle, and that is the reasons that even in Naples the tradition is disappearing.. Out of almost 3000 pizzeria in the city, only an handful still make it properly....

By the way, try Donna Margherita in London for a Neapolitan pizza (they do not use the Crisceto and have a more modern tradition, but they do a fine job).

Ciao

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 07:25 AM

NYC Mike, on Sep 8 2006, 04:58 AM, said:
The only thing I am not loving about the whole wood fire oven movement in pizza is that many places severly burn or scar the bottoms too much so the char overwhelms the rest of the pie.  Perhaps they aren't cleaning their oven properly, I don't know.
View Post



Mostly is due to poorly built or mediocre ovens... They do not cook in an even way and therefore the bottom get burned while trying to cook the top.... To cook a proper Pizza Napoletana there is not any alternative to an authentic Forno Napoletano (www.forno-napoletano.it). Many people think that with any wood oven and with an italian flour and other ingredient they can serve a Pizza Napoletana... WRONG!!

On my consultancy service, I start with getting the client an authentic oven and a proper mixer (not a spiral or a planetary so often found in US/UK)...


At times however could be due to the guy cooking the pizza. In Naples usually is a job by itself. The "pizzaiolo" make the dough, form the disc and put the topping and the "fornaio" cook the pizza and manage the fire...
            
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Posted 11 September 2006 - 12:58 AM

Shaya, on Sep 10 2006, 04:43 PM, said:
 
...A16 in San Francisco.  Would you say this is a great example of their pizza?
View Post


Thanks for the compliments.

However, for the reports and pictures I have seen, plus an inside info on their dough production and management, I have to say that A16's pizza should be a BAD example of an authentic Pizza Napoletana and thus of mine.

No offence , but you would have to go in Naples or at least at Il Pizzaiolo in Pittsburgh-PA to see a great example. Nowadays, It is very diffucult to find an outstanding Pizza even in the mother city, where out of 3000 odds pizzerie only few make an authentic traditional product.

Ciao
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2010, 05:46:17 AM »
the dough is not hydrated properly .

How do you know this?  In your opinion, what is the proper hydration for Neapolitan pizza dough?

I went to a pizzeria in Manhattan where they have authentic neapolitan oven and dough, but let me tell you I couldn't eat a slice, it was very gummy for my taste. I waisted $42 with trip.


I'm going to guess that you are talking about Keste.  The "gum layer" that you are referring to is a very common characteristic of traditional neapolitan pizza that is caused buy a super hot oven (1000 deg) & sub minute cook time.  At those temperatures, your pizza will be charcoal by the time you cook the gum layer out.  It has nothing to do with the dough, the only way of eliminating the gum layer is to work with a lower the oven temperature. 

Matt

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2010, 05:57:41 AM »


talks about Crisceto and how it is made.  Posted Sept. 08, 2006 Pizza Napoletana says: tiny bit of Crisceto (wild yeast), medium strenght flour, water, sea salt. Mixed in a special way, high hydration dough, long fermentation/maturation at room temperature and finaly but not least, baked in the very special Neapolitan Pizza Oven.


Hi Norma, ;D
Marco's reference above is on how the pizza dough is made.  The crisceto that Marco is referring to is likely Ischia.

Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2010, 06:15:37 AM »
Hi Norma, ;D
Marco's reference above is on how the pizza dough is made.  The crisceto that Marco is referring to is likely Ischia.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for telling me that Marco is probably referring to is likely Ischia.  That is a big help!  ;D

Norma
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2010, 06:22:34 AM »
Matt,

Thanks for telling me that Marco is probably referring to is likely Ischia.  That is a big help!  ;D

Norma

No problem Norma, just a guess.  If it's not Ischia it's definitely Camoldoli.  My guess was Ischia because I'm pretty sure that it's his preference over the two.

Matt

Offline BurntFingers

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2010, 08:49:16 AM »
ninapizza23,

Wow, that is a long wait.  :o  Don't think I would wait that long.  Since I haven't ever experienced Bianco's pizza, I had no idea what it tastes like.  When I go to New York, I have just tried different NY Style pizzas, never in a wood fired oven.  The next time I go to New York, I am going to experience a pizza made in a wood fired oven.
I plan on coming to New York the end of February if the weather isn't bad and if time will allow me to. 
I search by Google.  Just go to Google and type in images, then type in what you are looking for.  It will come up with all the images of what you are looking for. 
I see your avatar, but I didn't realize what it was.  How to you grow your basil? ( have you ever noticed the hydroponic unit I built to grow basil without soil?)
I buy fresh basil each week at our local grocery store.  It is live with roots and grown all natural..aquaponically grown pesticide free.  For two bunches it is only 1.59.

Norma
If you go to NY, go across the river to A Mano in North Jersey.  It is the closest you will get in the western hemisphere to Naples pizza.
http://amanopizza.com/

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2010, 08:50:55 AM »
Sorry Burntfingers - didn't mean to ignore your earlier question.
In answer to your question re: wine yeast - It's not a natural starter or culture per se - since it's a single species of yeast which is a different strain of the ?same species? as baker's yeast (if not the same then certainly related).
I've heard varying reports on using brewer's or wine yeast in bread making but really the only way to tell - is to give it a shot! Don't expect sourdough flavours though. It will be very much like your IDY except perhaps slower acting.

Cheers,
Toby


« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 09:10:24 AM by Infoodel »

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2010, 09:20:52 AM »
If you go to NY, go across the river to A Mano in North Jersey.  It is the closest you will get in the western hemisphere to Naples pizza.
http://amanopizza.com/

BurntFingers ,

Thanks for the heads up and if I get to that area of New Jersey, I surely will stop there and try some great wood fired pizza,  (Naples pizza).   :)

Thanks,

Norma
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Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2010, 10:54:39 PM »
Matthew,
FYI      If the dough is "'gummy" something went wrong in the mixer, I will not tell you what the correct term is but it is not a characteristic of impasto napolitano.  Call the experts and verify with them if you don't believe me.     Crisceto is not referred to Ischia or Camaldoli either.  I am still waiting for your reply to my PM.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 11:38:15 PM by ninapizza23 »


Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2010, 11:43:22 PM »
Burntfingers,
here is a bigger picture of the unit to grow basil.

Infoodel

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2010, 12:09:36 AM »
@Ninapizza

From http://www.metro.co.uk/metrolife/146260-franco-manca-is-a-top-pizza-contender

"Most excitingly, Mascoli turned to pizza expert Marco Parente, guru of the imposing and rather gorgeous wood-burning oven, which blasts the pizzas at a ferocious 500°C. He describes Marco as 'a sort of Indiana Jones of criscito'. This is the magic ingredient: the starter or 'mother', a fragile, living organism that creates the prized sourdough. Parente has managed to, um, 'acquire' a rare culinary treasure, a batch of 200-year-old 'mother' from a secret source in Ischia."

I also recall reading somewhere that a winning contestant in a bake-off contest in 2008 entered an Ischia-leavened bread. The contest was judged by (among others) Giuseppe Mascoli of Franco Manca (the pizzeria Marco consulted for) who apparently recognised the taste of the Ischia culture in the bread.

Make of that what you will. I'm not sure I care either way but it's possible that even if the better-known Ischia culture is not the same as 'Crisceto' - it may well be very similar in flavour. I certainly wouldn't discount it. This heritage culture business can get a little daft imho.

From Marco's point of view in his role as consultant, I can understand how a consistent and dependable result is desirable without the need to learn a new or strange culture (he's not primarily a baker afterall). Each to their own I suppose. For me, the whole point of using a 'from scratch' starter culture is the unique nature of it. Learning how to get the most from it, how to get the desired end result takes time and patience. Even those well-known 'commercial' cultures will adapt and change to different environments.

Toby

« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 12:42:21 AM by Infoodel »

Offline Matthew

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2010, 06:59:35 AM »
Matthew,
FYI      If the dough is "'gummy" something went wrong in the mixer, I will not tell you what the correct term is but it is not a characteristic of impasto napolitano.  Call the experts and verify with them if you don't believe me.     Crisceto is not referred to Ischia or Camaldoli either.  I am still waiting for your reply to my PM.

You are absolutely incorrect.  The picture below is what a typical pizza looks like from Keste,  Are you telling me that Roberto does not know how to use his mixer?  If that's the case then maybe you can offer him some consultation.  Why won't you tell me what the proper term is?  Is it because you don't know?  In your opinion, what is the optimal hydration for Neapolitan pizza dough?

Below is a quote from member Scott r:

"The hotter an oven gets, the more chances for that small amount of uncooked dough in the middle.  Combine that with the neapolitan tradition of a fairly wet sauce, and you can easily start having issues.    Jeff Varasano commented to me in private that most, or maybe even all the pizzas he had in Naples Italy had a gum layer, and that he considered them "raw".   What this means to me is that it is sort of part of the neapolitan experience, although maybe marco can chime in and tell us that it shouldn't be that way.  The pizza I had at Keste was exceptional, and right up there with what I expect after a visit to Naples"

The 2nd & 3rd photos were posted by Marco detailing the strappo & sezione of one of his pizza's, please feel free to comment.

With regards to Crisceto, I am fully aware of what it means.  If you read my reply properly you would of seen that I was merely clarifying something up for Norma.  If Ischia & Camoldoli are not both forms of crisceto then please enlighten us all & tell us what they are.

"I mean that it rises sooner and however you will need to aim for at least 12 hours to have good results using a Crisceto."  This quote was taken from one of Marco's reply to another member who was asking about the fermentation times for both Ischia & Camoldoli.

For your last point, I believe that I have properly answered your PM.

Matt

« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 10:14:02 AM by Matthew »

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2010, 06:18:47 AM »
ninapizza23,

Thanks for the picture of how you grow your basil.  I did search the web and found directions for building you own hydroponic unit.  I will have to try to build one.  I do have most of the items needed to build one.  Just would have to purchase some pipe. 
Here is a picture of the basil that is offered at our grocery store.

Norma
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Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2010, 11:01:17 AM »
Norma427,
great, you found out how to make the same one, make sure you have everything you need before you start cutting pipes. I have a hydroponic store near my house so if I need something I can just run there. If you want you can make a much simpler one with 2 plastic containers like the one I am making. You're going to need some plugs that look like dirt and put them in canisters full of holes so that the water can get in. You will need a small pump, a timer, ph tester and TDS tester, the rest is easy. How is your wild yeast coming along?

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2010, 11:14:20 AM »
ninapizza23,

I do have most of the items here at home.  I have a timer that I used to turned Christmas lights off and on, have a PH meter, but don't have the TDS tester or pipes.  I found these sites for making the hydroponic unit if anyone is interested. 

building you own hydroponic unit                       
               

http://www.instructables.com   type in hydroponic unit in search

http://www.bghydro.com/bgh/static/articles/0806_byos.asp

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04/diy-hydroponics.php
                           
   

   



www.pvcplans.com/hydroponic.htm

http://www.tubegarden.com/



My wild yeast is doing well.  I plan on mixing some wild yeast and making some pizza this week to see how it behaves.  I am not sure which one I might use.  I did refrigerate the all rye.  The rest I am still feeding. 

Thanks for the idea of the hydroponic unit.  Maybe when I get mine finished, I won't have to buy basil anymore.  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 02:07:53 PM by norma427 »
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Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2010, 08:27:12 PM »
Norma427,
go for it! You see what I started? Now, everybody is going to want to build one. I have done hydroponics for many years  since I saw them in Florida. As soon as I move to a warmer climate I will make some big units. I built a small one today in 5 minutes.

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2010, 08:49:25 PM »
ninapizza23,

Thanks for the idea.  :)  Maybe other members will try one, also.

I want to ask you another question:  Why aren't you answering Matt's questions? He helps all the members here.  His insight is helpful, because he knows so much already.  Just wanted to know.  ???

Thanks,

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2010, 09:16:05 PM »
Norma427,
I was nice to him but he has not been nice to me.

Offline Matthew

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2010, 06:17:52 AM »
Norma427,
I was nice to him but he has not been nice to me.

Nina,
There is not 1 member on this site that can say that I have not helped them to the best of my knowledge everytime that they have sent me PM's.  I have even gone as far as given people my telephone number.  I replied to your PM even though it was written in a very sneaky fashion.  I will not go into it any further as I'm sure that you know what I'm talking about.

Let's be honest here, the real reason that you're not answering me is not because I am not nice, it's because you don't have an answer. You made a statement & I asked you to explain it.  I thought that since you are friends with so many pizzaiolos that you knew something that the rest of us didn't.  Whenever you make a statement you should validate it by backing it up with facts.  In my opinion you have failed to do so in all your responses.  Even though you called me out publically on a ridiculous PM that you sent me (which by the way in improper forum etiquette) I still replied back to your statements & backed them up with facts.  Like the rest of the people following this thread I am anxiously waiting for your response to Reply #61.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 11:54:21 AM by Matthew »

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2010, 09:55:25 PM »
Toby,

I want to thank you so much.  I tried a foccacia style pizza tonight with the natural starter made with rye then fed with Caputo.

The pie turned out great!

Thanks for all your help and watching the natural starters as they progressed.

I will post more pictures under the Sfincione thread under Sicilian, when I am finished resizing and writing on what procedures I used.

Thanks a million plus,

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Infoodel

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2010, 10:14:55 PM »
Wow Norma that looks deeeeeeelicious. Here's to many more like it! :chef:
I'm glad I could be of help and thrilled the starters are working for you.
Thank you for keeping us all informed and updated on your starters' progress.

Cheers,
Toby

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2010, 10:21:49 PM »
Toby,

If it wasn't for you helping me in the process, I wouldn't have come this far.  This is only the first starter I tried, but will be trying more in the future.  The starter made the pie taste great! 
There wasn't any sourdough taste, just a very delicate taste to the crust.  The bottom turned out nice and crispy and the lightness of this pie was amazing.   :)

Thanks again, and I will post under here, when I try another starter,

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline a pizza cu a Pumarola

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2010, 10:32:50 PM »
Nina,
There is not 1 member on this site that can say that I have not helped them to the best of my knowledge everytime that they have sent me PM's.  I have even gone as far as given people my telephone number.  I replied to your PM even though it was written in a very sneaky fashion.  I will not go into it any further as I'm sure that you know what I'm talking about.

Let's be honest here, the real reason that you're not answering me is not because I am not nice, it's because you don't have an answer. You made a statement & I asked you to explain it.  I thought that since you are friends with so many pizzaiolos that you knew something that the rest of us didn't.  Whenever you make a statement you should validate it by backing it up with facts.  In my opinion you have failed to do so in all your responses.  Even though you called me out publically on a ridiculous PM that you sent me (which by the way in improper forum etiquette) I still replied back to your statements & backed them up with facts.  Like the rest of the people following this thread I am anxiously waiting for your response to Reply #61.
Matt could not be more correct at making the statement that he has helped us all to his utmost potential. If it wasn’t for Matt I would have been nowhere with my starter development. He’s been so helpful I cannot say enough good things about him – I own my own business and wish I had suppliers that were half as helpful, half as knowledgeable and half as considerate as Matt.
Big thanks to you Matt for all you’ve done for me and the forum.

Offline Matthew

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2010, 06:09:19 AM »
Matt could not be more correct at making the statement that he has helped us all to his utmost potential. If it wasn’t for Matt I would have been nowhere with my starter development. He’s been so helpful I cannot say enough good things about him – I own my own business and wish I had suppliers that were half as helpful, half as knowledgeable and half as considerate as Matt.
Big thanks to you Matt for all you’ve done for me and the forum.


Thanks very much for the kind words. 
Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie to Natural Starters
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2010, 04:07:30 PM »
These are the 6 starters that are still getting fed.  The other 2 all rye starters are in the fridge. 

Number 1  went from rye, to high-gluten+10 grams of wheat gluten, just added last night
Number 2  went from rye with 5 grams of wine, then AP, now Caputo
Number 3  went from rye, now Caputo
Number 4  went from rye with 5 grams of wine, to AP
Number 5  whole wheat
Number 6  went from rye, to high-gluten, now semolina

These  pictures were taken this morning and number 1 that I added the 10 grams of wheat gluten is spilling over on the microwave this afternoon.  I even had a vent cut in the lid.  Guess that wheat gluten is potent.  ::)

Norma
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 04:15:47 PM by norma427 »
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