Author Topic: Newbie to Natural Starters (Read 13960 times)

Infoodel · « **Reply #60 on:** January 19, 2010, 12:09:36 AM »

@Ninapizza

From http://www.metro.co.uk/metrolife/146260-franco-manca-is-a-top-pizza-contender

"Most excitingly, Mascoli turned to pizza expert Marco Parente, guru of the imposing and rather gorgeous wood-burning oven, which blasts the pizzas at a ferocious 500°C. He describes Marco as 'a sort of Indiana Jones of criscito'. This is the magic ingredient: the starter or 'mother', a fragile, living organism that creates the prized sourdough. Parente has managed to, um, 'acquire' a rare culinary treasure, a batch of 200-year-old 'mother' from a secret source in Ischia."

I also recall reading somewhere that a winning contestant in a bake-off contest in 2008 entered an Ischia-leavened bread. The contest was judged by (among others) Giuseppe Mascoli of Franco Manca (the pizzeria Marco consulted for) who apparently recognised the taste of the Ischia culture in the bread.

Make of that what you will. I'm not sure I care either way but it's possible that even if the better-known Ischia culture is not the same as 'Crisceto' - it may well be very similar in flavour. I certainly wouldn't discount it. This heritage culture business can get a little daft imho.

From Marco's point of view in his role as consultant, I can understand how a consistent and dependable result is desirable without the need to learn a new or strange culture (he's not primarily a baker afterall). Each to their own I suppose. For me, the whole point of using a 'from scratch' starter culture is the unique nature of it. Learning how to get the most from it, how to get the desired end result takes time and patience. Even those well-known 'commercial' cultures will adapt and change to different environments.

Toby

Matthew · « **Reply #61 on:** January 19, 2010, 06:59:35 AM »

Quote from: ninapizza23 on January 18, 2010, 10:54:39 PM

Matthew,
FYI If the dough is "'gummy" something went wrong in the mixer, I will not tell you what the correct term is but it is not a characteristic of impasto napolitano. Call the experts and verify with them if you don't believe me. Crisceto is not referred to Ischia or Camaldoli either. I am still waiting for your reply to my PM.

You are absolutely incorrect. The picture below is what a typical pizza looks like from Keste, Are you telling me that Roberto does not know how to use his mixer? If that's the case then maybe you can offer him some consultation. Why won't you tell me what the proper term is? Is it because you don't know? In your opinion, what is the optimal hydration for Neapolitan pizza dough?

Below is a quote from member Scott r:

"The hotter an oven gets, the more chances for that small amount of uncooked dough in the middle. Combine that with the neapolitan tradition of a fairly wet sauce, and you can easily start having issues. Jeff Varasano commented to me in private that most, or maybe even all the pizzas he had in Naples Italy had a gum layer, and that he considered them "raw". What this means to me is that it is sort of part of the neapolitan experience, although maybe marco can chime in and tell us that it shouldn't be that way. The pizza I had at Keste was exceptional, and right up there with what I expect after a visit to Naples"

The 2nd & 3rd photos were posted by Marco detailing the strappo & sezione of one of his pizza's, please feel free to comment.

With regards to Crisceto, I am fully aware of what it means. If you read my reply properly you would of seen that I was merely clarifying something up for Norma. If Ischia & Camoldoli are not both forms of crisceto then please enlighten us all & tell us what they are.

"I mean that it rises sooner and however you will need to aim for at least 12 hours to have good results using a Crisceto." This quote was taken from one of Marco's reply to another member who was asking about the fermentation times for both Ischia & Camoldoli.

For your last point, I believe that I have properly answered your PM.

Matt

norma427 · « **Reply #62 on:** January 20, 2010, 06:18:47 AM »

ninapizza23,

Thanks for the picture of how you grow your basil. I did search the web and found directions for building you own hydroponic unit. I will have to try to build one. I do have most of the items needed to build one. Just would have to purchase some pipe.
Here is a picture of the basil that is offered at our grocery store.

Norma

ninapizza23 · « **Reply #63 on:** January 20, 2010, 11:01:17 AM »

Norma427,
great, you found out how to make the same one, make sure you have everything you need before you start cutting pipes. I have a hydroponic store near my house so if I need something I can just run there. If you want you can make a much simpler one with 2 plastic containers like the one I am making. You're going to need some plugs that look like dirt and put them in canisters full of holes so that the water can get in. You will need a small pump, a timer, ph tester and TDS tester, the rest is easy. How is your wild yeast coming along?

norma427 · « **Reply #64 on:** January 20, 2010, 11:14:20 AM »

ninapizza23,

I do have most of the items here at home. I have a timer that I used to turned Christmas lights off and on, have a PH meter, but don't have the TDS tester or pipes. I found these sites for making the hydroponic unit if anyone is interested.

building you own hydroponic unit

http://www.instructables.com type in hydroponic unit in search

http://www.bghydro.com/bgh/static/articles/0806_byos.asp

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04/diy-hydroponics.php

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KcFFnuG2Hc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KcFFnuG2Hc</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uykl8jYjYSc&feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uykl8jYjYSc&feature=related</a>

www.pvcplans.com/hydroponic.htm

http://www.tubegarden.com/

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OU4QuBo6CQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OU4QuBo6CQ</a>

My wild yeast is doing well. I plan on mixing some wild yeast and making some pizza this week to see how it behaves. I am not sure which one I might use. I did refrigerate the all rye. The rest I am still feeding.

Thanks for the idea of the hydroponic unit. Maybe when I get mine finished, I won't have to buy basil anymore.

Norma

ninapizza23 · « **Reply #65 on:** January 20, 2010, 08:27:12 PM »

Norma427,
go for it! You see what I started? Now, everybody is going to want to build one. I have done hydroponics for many years since I saw them in Florida. As soon as I move to a warmer climate I will make some big units. I built a small one today in 5 minutes.

norma427 · « **Reply #66 on:** January 20, 2010, 08:49:25 PM »

ninapizza23,

Thanks for the idea.

Maybe other members will try one, also.

I want to ask you another question: Why aren't you answering Matt's questions? He helps all the members here. His insight is helpful, because he knows so much already. Just wanted to know.

Thanks,

Norma

ninapizza23 · « **Reply #67 on:** January 20, 2010, 09:16:05 PM »

Norma427,
I was nice to him but he has not been nice to me.

Matthew · « **Reply #68 on:** January 21, 2010, 06:17:52 AM »

Quote from: ninapizza23 on January 20, 2010, 09:16:05 PM

Norma427,
I was nice to him but he has not been nice to me.

Nina,
There is not 1 member on this site that can say that I have not helped them to the best of my knowledge everytime that they have sent me PM's. I have even gone as far as given people my telephone number. I replied to your PM even though it was written in a very sneaky fashion. I will not go into it any further as I'm sure that you know what I'm talking about.

Let's be honest here, the real reason that you're not answering me is not because I am not nice, it's because you don't have an answer. You made a statement & I asked you to explain it. I thought that since you are friends with so many pizzaiolos that you knew something that the rest of us didn't. Whenever you make a statement you should validate it by backing it up with facts. In my opinion you have failed to do so in all your responses. Even though you called me out publically on a ridiculous PM that you sent me (which by the way in improper forum etiquette) I still replied back to your statements & backed them up with facts. Like the rest of the people following this thread I am anxiously waiting for your response to Reply #61.

norma427 · « **Reply #69 on:** January 21, 2010, 09:55:25 PM »

Toby,

I want to thank you so much. I tried a foccacia style pizza tonight with the natural starter made with rye then fed with Caputo.

The pie turned out great!

Thanks for all your help and watching the natural starters as they progressed.

I will post more pictures under the Sfincione thread under Sicilian, when I am finished resizing and writing on what procedures I used.

Thanks a million plus,

Norma

Infoodel · « **Reply #70 on:** January 21, 2010, 10:14:55 PM »

Wow Norma that looks deeeeeeelicious. Here's to many more like it!

I'm glad I could be of help and thrilled the starters are working for you.
Thank you for keeping us all informed and updated on your starters' progress.

Cheers,
Toby

norma427 · « **Reply #71 on:** January 21, 2010, 10:21:49 PM »

Toby,

If it wasn't for you helping me in the process, I wouldn't have come this far. This is only the first starter I tried, but will be trying more in the future. The starter made the pie taste great!
There wasn't any sourdough taste, just a very delicate taste to the crust. The bottom turned out nice and crispy and the lightness of this pie was amazing.

Thanks again, and I will post under here, when I try another starter,

Norma

a pizza cu a Pumarola · « **Reply #72 on:** January 22, 2010, 10:32:50 PM »

Quote from: Matthew on January 21, 2010, 06:17:52 AM

Nina,
There is not 1 member on this site that can say that I have not helped them to the best of my knowledge everytime that they have sent me PM's. I have even gone as far as given people my telephone number. I replied to your PM even though it was written in a very sneaky fashion. I will not go into it any further as I'm sure that you know what I'm talking about.

Let's be honest here, the real reason that you're not answering me is not because I am not nice, it's because you don't have an answer. You made a statement & I asked you to explain it. I thought that since you are friends with so many pizzaiolos that you knew something that the rest of us didn't. Whenever you make a statement you should validate it by backing it up with facts. In my opinion you have failed to do so in all your responses. Even though you called me out publically on a ridiculous PM that you sent me (which by the way in improper forum etiquette) I still replied back to your statements & backed them up with facts. Like the rest of the people following this thread I am anxiously waiting for your response to Reply #61.

Matt could not be more correct at making the statement that he has helped us all to his utmost potential. If it wasn’t for Matt I would have been nowhere with my starter development. He’s been so helpful I cannot say enough good things about him – I own my own business and wish I had suppliers that were half as helpful, half as knowledgeable and half as considerate as Matt.
Big thanks to you Matt for all you’ve done for me and the forum.

Matthew · « **Reply #73 on:** January 23, 2010, 06:09:19 AM »

Quote from: a pizza cu a Pumarola on January 22, 2010, 10:32:50 PM

Matt could not be more correct at making the statement that he has helped us all to his utmost potential. If it wasn’t for Matt I would have been nowhere with my starter development. He’s been so helpful I cannot say enough good things about him – I own my own business and wish I had suppliers that were half as helpful, half as knowledgeable and half as considerate as Matt.
Big thanks to you Matt for all you’ve done for me and the forum.

Thanks very much for the kind words.
Matt

norma427 · « **Reply #74 on:** January 23, 2010, 04:07:30 PM »

These are the 6 starters that are still getting fed. The other 2 all rye starters are in the fridge.

Number 1 went from rye, to high-gluten+10 grams of wheat gluten, just added last night
Number 2 went from rye with 5 grams of wine, then AP, now Caputo
Number 3 went from rye, now Caputo
Number 4 went from rye with 5 grams of wine, to AP
Number 5 whole wheat
Number 6 went from rye, to high-gluten, now semolina

These pictures were taken this morning and number 1 that I added the 10 grams of wheat gluten is spilling over on the microwave this afternoon. I even had a vent cut in the lid. Guess that wheat gluten is potent.

Norma

Infoodel · « **Reply #75 on:** January 23, 2010, 04:25:32 PM »

Lovely to see the whole family, Norma!

Here's my collection from about a year ago (got a bit crazy feeding them all every day) - I've since trimmed right down:

norma427 · « **Reply #76 on:** January 23, 2010, 04:33:48 PM »

Quote from: Infoodel on January 23, 2010, 04:25:32 PM

Lovely to see the whole family, Norma!

Here's my collection from about a year ago (got a bit crazy feeding them all every day) - I've since trimmed right down:

Toby,

LOL..it seems you like to see what happens with starters, also.

Do you mind telling me what I should do with the one I fed the wheat gluten to? Do I just continue feeding with high gluten and forget the wheat gluten, since it is really wild, now?

Norma

Infoodel · « **Reply #77 on:** January 23, 2010, 04:49:33 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on January 23, 2010, 04:33:48 PM

Toby,

LOL..it seems you like to see what happens with starters, also. Do you mind telling me what I should do with the one I fed the wheat gluten to? Do I just continue feeding with high gluten and forget the wheat gluten, since it is really wild, now?

Norma

Unless you have a specific purpose for the all-high-gluten flour starter, I'd leave it. Save the high-gluten flour for when you need it.

Toby

norma427 · « **Reply #78 on:** January 23, 2010, 04:52:14 PM »

Toby,

Thanks for the additional help!

Norma

ninapizza23 · « **Reply #79 on:** January 23, 2010, 09:22:12 PM »

A Pizza Cu A Pumarola,

I have no doubt that Matt has been nice and helpful to you, I wish I could have said the same about him towards me. If he wants to challenge what I said about the dough he can go and do his own research himself, I know I am absolutely correct because I am connected with some of the best pizzaiolos in Italy and some in the US and when I described the dough to them they all agreed on the same thing. Some pizzerias do not offer the best product all they are interested is $$$ no matter where you go. I went to Pizzeria Fresca before I went to Roberto, the pizza was great, I have been at Bianco's numerous times always great, never gummy. Just last month I gave my friend pizzaiolo from venice a tip about his neapolitan dough, his wife tried it, she said the dough turned out softer and more flavorful, she also added that her orders increased quite a bit and she appreciated my advice. They have been in business for 12 years! If I am not certain about something I do not open my mouth. Next month I'll be getting my spiral mixer from Italy and I will be practicing on how to make PIZZA VENETA, probably nobody in this forum has ever heard about it. Sometime ago I was able to get the recipe that Gabriele uses for pizza romana but I have been holding off until I get a decent mixer. I have a friend pizzaiolo in the US that went to Italy to a master teacher to learn how to make pizza romana and paid $3000 for a week. So I know which doors I can knock if I need any help.