Author Topic: 8-Day Dough  (Read 9975 times)

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Offline Glutenboy

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8-Day Dough
« on: January 12, 2010, 01:47:12 PM »
Used my last doughball of the latest batch today.  She was 8 days old made with unbleached, unbromated All-Trumps, no sugar, no oil.  I think 8 days is my limit because it was becoming a bit more delicate in the stretch, but the flavor is worth the touch of extra care needed.  Here are the final pics from the batch.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 01:51:21 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.


Offline Glutenboy

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2010, 01:48:39 PM »
And some more...
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Infoodel

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2010, 02:30:04 PM »
Man that looks good!
Good colouration on the crust. Nicely done!

Offline Jack

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2010, 02:38:48 PM »
Nice. 

When I think a dough may sit around for a while, I'll add a pinch of sweetner, to feed the yeast for a while; at least that's what I'm thinking happens.

jack

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2010, 05:03:35 PM »
I hear that a lot, but it doesn't seem to be the case with this formulation.  If you look at the thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66669.html#msg66669, you"ll see I used very little yeast.  (By the way, there's a corrected yeast weight if you read down that thread a bit further.)  I think that's the reason for the longevity.  The wait is terrible, but the flavor that develops over the week is worth it.  Conventional wisdom would dictate that the longer I wait, the more sugars are used up and the less browning I'll get, but just the opposite seems to be the case.  The older it gets (to the 8-day point), the better the color.  Anyone care to explain?  >:D
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 05:06:03 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2010, 06:26:52 PM »
Glutenboy,

When I played around with geriatric doughs, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html, I did not use any sugar in the dough either and got very good crust coloration. The dough lives were from about 6 days to 23 days of cold fermentation. I did some things differently than what you have done with your doughs but, like you, I used relatively small amounts of yeast. When I tried your dough recipe, which I described at Reply 78 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg72399.html#msg72399, I concluded that, in your case, and in my version of your dough as well, it was a combination of low dough ball size (302 grams), which leads to faster cooling, and the small amount of yeast that explained the dough's longevity. I didn't mention it at the time, but the higher quantity of salt (2.5%) could also have slowed down the rate of fermentation of your dough, by its effects on the yeast and the enzymes that convert damaged starch to sugar. When I did my dough longevity experiments, I had a lot of theories as to why the finished crusts had such good color when there was no sugar added to the dough but the best I could come up with as an explanation is that the dough was in a state of "animated suspension" and there was possibly impairment of the normal function of yeast and that it took an awful long time to release the natural sugars from the flour. Otherwise, most of the sugars would have been used as food by the yeast, leaving too little residual sugar to contribute to crust coloration, the Maillard reactions, caramelization, etc. The stars had to be aligned just right.

Pete

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 06:58:03 PM »
Wow!  I put a doughball into stasis!  Do you realize what this means?  The human race can bring pizza dough to Alpha Centauri and cook it when we get there!  AND it will brown.  Very sci-fi.  Seriously, thanks for the analysis, Peter.  Interestingly, my dough with All-Trumps seems to have a longer shelf life than a similar dough made with Harvest King.  Do you think the protein content could have anything to do with that?
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline MozzaMatt

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 07:23:20 PM »
My gosh that looks good!!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 08:01:28 PM »
Wow!  I put a doughball into stasis!  Do you realize what this means?  The human race can bring pizza dough to Alpha Centauri and cook it when we get there!  AND it will brown.  Very sci-fi.  Seriously, thanks for the analysis, Peter.  Interestingly, my dough with All-Trumps seems to have a longer shelf life than a similar dough made with Harvest King.  Do you think the protein content could have anything to do with that?

Glutenboy,

On a more earthly plane, we had a member a while ago ask how to transport a pizza dough on an airplane so that it could be used after the airplane landed. The thread in which this topic was discussed is http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8327.msg71803.html#msg71803. It later turned out that the dough, which started out in the Midwest (St. Louis), ended up in Washington, D.C., where the dough was used to make pizzas for President Obama and his guests and members of his staff: http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/gutcheck/2009/04/pi_pizza_chris_sommers_white_house_barack_obama_st_louis_food_blog_restaurants_news_041609.php and http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/apr/10/entertainment/chi-talk-pizza-10-apr10. The reason I mention this, apart from its coolness and the role that the forum played (unwittingly) in the matter, is that you have to go through the same mental process as you would with your dough to get it to last eight or more days after it is made. It's all about how to get from point A to point B.

With respect to your question on the All Trumps flour and the Harvest King (Better for Bread) flour, the All Trumps flour will support a longer fermentation time because of its higher protein content. The All Trumps flour has a protein content of 14.2%. By contrast, the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour has a protein content of around 12%.

Peter

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2010, 08:27:37 PM »
I guess my question is really WHY does a higher-protein flour support longer fermentation?  Protein content is not frequently mentioned in discussions of fermentation and shelf life of dough, is it?
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2010, 08:51:45 PM »
Glutenboy,

As I understand it, it has to do with the W (deformation energy) value of the flour. You can read about W at http://www.cooknaturally.com/detailed/detailed.html. See, also, Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5496.msg46487/topicseen.html#msg46487 and Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545.html#msg42545. Tom Lehmann also occasionally mentions in his writings that a dough made of high-gluten flour will sustain a longer warm-up time (at room temperature) before using than a dough made of a weaker flour, such as all-purpose flour.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 08:54:32 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2010, 10:55:13 PM »
Thanks, Peter.  Amazing that all these processes happen under our noses and are yet still so subject to theoretical explanations.  It's like trying to figure out if there's life on Mars.  At some point I suppose we learn what works and develop a feel for how things will turn out.  The line between art and science...  This is one pursuit where they come together beautifully!  :chef:
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Bob1

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2010, 10:23:45 AM »
[quoteGlutenboy,

As I understand it, it has to do with the W (deformation energy) value of the flour. You can read about W at http://www.cooknaturally.com/detailed/detailed.html. See, also, Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5496.msg46487/topicseen.html#msg46487 and Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545.html#msg42545. Tom Lehmann also occasionally mentions in his writings that a dough made of high-gluten flour will sustain a longer warm-up time (at room temperature) before using than a dough made of a weaker flour, such as all-purpose flour.

Peter][/quote]


Here is a graph of these variables from another site.  It is translated, so it reads a little funny.  It seems that in Italy the flour is rated at W and it is graduated much more definitive than in the US.  Hope it helps.

http://www.pane.appuntidicucina.it/ricetta/index.php?Art=3224

  For Law wheat flour may be sold under that name and features:    Type and Ash% Protein Minimum% 
 Type 00 Max 0.55 9.00 
 Type 0 Max 0.65 11.00 
 Type 1 Max 0.80 12.00 
 Type 2 Max 0.95 12.00 
 Full from 1.30 to 1.70 12.00 
 

  Very important parameter of flour for its use in baking? index W. Identifies the strength of flour or her ability? to produce a durable structure, trapping gases of yeasts. Essentially that yeast well.    W inf. 130 No bread   
 W from 190 to 220 weak flour   
 W from 230 to 290 normal force   
 W from 300 to 370 of mean force Protein from 14.5 to 15.5% 
 W from 380 to 450 strong Protein from 15.5 to 18% 
 




Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2010, 03:24:02 PM »
I concluded that, in your case, and in my version of your dough as well, it was a combination of low dough ball size (302 grams), which leads to faster cooling, and the small amount of yeast that explained the dough's longevity.

AH HA!

Well, that would have been handy info to hear as I was cranking out 385g balls...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg83239.html#msg83239

So basically this recipe should not be made in a 15", well this explains my lack luster results of late.

"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2010, 03:36:10 PM »
Hey guys.  Peter and Bob - Thanks for the info.  I plan on experimenting with some different flours and tracking which doughs peak when.  NYPizzastriver - Question:  When you made a 385-gram doughball, how big was the pie?  Mine are around 14" at about 300-306 grams per doughball.  I wonder if a 385-g skin would fit on my peel and cooking surface when stretched.  Could it be that when you make the heavier dough, you are also stretching a bit less and thus increasing the thickness factor?  That could also be affecting outcome.  When you say "lackluster," what exacly are you referring to in the finished product?

Signed,

Curious in CA AKA Glutenboy!
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Essen1

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2010, 04:50:37 PM »
GB,

Not trying to hijack you thread but I use 375 g for a 14" pie.

The crust is still thin albeit not paper thin as you can see below. I got the 375 g recommendation from member Terry (TDeane) actually. I have used a lower weight for 14" pies in the past, 275 g - 325 g, but those pies didn't really support many toppings, especially when the pizza got a little soggy in the center.



« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 04:53:56 PM by Essen1 »
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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2010, 04:53:01 PM »
NYPizzastriver - Question:  When you made a 385-gram doughball, how big was the pie?  Mine are around 14" at about 300-306 grams per doughball.  I wonder if a 385-g skin would fit on my peel and cooking surface when stretched.  Could it be that when you make the heavier dough, you are also stretching a bit less and thus increasing the thickness factor? 


Good question. Back when I was hand kneading I had to add 10% to this http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg72465.html#msg72465 to get to about 230g for a 12". I tried this http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg83239.html#msg83239 with mixer for a 15" and at 350 ish grams there's no way I can get it to 15" without many window panes, so as before I added 10% again, hence 380-385 grams are my finals. So, to answer your q 385 is a 15", and it's dam thin.

My latest results are non responsive dead dough, white non rising crusts, and the pizza is nothing like the greatness I had at 12". I'm thinking Peter nailed why with coldness factor, so I'm glad I stumbled upon that.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 04:56:10 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2010, 05:05:14 PM »
NYPizzastriver - It seems to me that if what Peter proposed were happening to you, your dough would take longer to cool in the fridge and rise MORE before finally cooling.  Not that this wouldn't affect the final product, but if your dough is "nonresponsive and dead" as you  said, perhaps something else happened.  Old flour?  Bad yeast?  Sounds like an awfully unsubtle change for a 25% increase in weight.  How many times have you tried the heavier weight?  If it was once, perhaps it was a bad batch for whatever reason.  I'd love to see a side-by-side with two different weight doughballs from the same batch of dough.

Essen - My crust is thin but doesn't give under the weight.  It's interesting how we all use basically the same ingredients but through slight differences in handling get such varying results.  We should have a convention someday and watch each other work.  Oh, and, by the way, beautiful pizzas!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 05:06:51 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2010, 07:59:07 PM »
AH HA!

Well, that would have been handy info to hear as I was cranking out 385g balls...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg83239.html#msg83239

So basically this recipe should not be made in a 15", well this explains my lack luster results of late.



Jim,

A 302 gram dough ball used to make a 14" pizza has a corresponding thickness factor of (302/28.35)/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.0692003. If you want to make a 15" pizza using Glutenboy's basic dough recipe, along with a bowl residue compensation of 2%, the dough formulation would be as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (61.0526%):
IDY (0.19817%):
Salt (2.5%):
Total (163.75077%):
215.95 g  |  7.62 oz | 0.48 lbs
131.84 g  |  4.65 oz | 0.29 lbs
0.43 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.14 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
5.4 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
353.62 g | 12.47 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.070584
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.06920; for one 15" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 2%

As you can see, the difference between roughly 354 ounces of dough (or about 347 ounces excluding dough losses) and 385 grams is about 1 1/3 ounce. At 385 grams, you should have been able to make a 15" pizza with characteristics similar to what Glutenboy has achieved. If you used 385 grams of dough to make a 15" pizza, that is around 3 ounces more than a 302 gram dough ball for a 14" pizza. That shouldn't rule out a 15" size. Maybe I am missing something that isn't showing up in the numbers, so please let me know if my numbers are wrong.

Now that you have a stand mixer, the above dough formulation might be adjusted to use a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. That would yield the following dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (61.0526%):
IDY (0.19817%):
Salt (2.5%):
Total (163.75077%):
214.89 g  |  7.58 oz | 0.47 lbs
131.2 g  |  4.63 oz | 0.29 lbs
0.43 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.14 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
5.37 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
351.88 g | 12.41 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.070238

Peter







Offline LaPizzaBrutta

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Re: 8-Day Dough
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2010, 08:34:20 PM »
I just registered on these boards and love the in depth conversations on dough formulations.

Looking at the formulas above, this seems very similar to the dough recipe I've come to use time and time again. I've cold fermented my dough for up to 14 days with excellent results. I open up 14" pies with roughly 310g-315g balls.

Flour (100%):  762g
Water (61%):  465g
IDY (0.282910%): 2g
Salt (3.42%):  26g (sea salt)

This makes me 4 balls in the 310-315g range for a 14" pie. With the higher salt content, it takes almost 4 days to properly cold ferment, but lasts much longer and increases in flavor with each day. At the 12 day mark, it starts to develop a sour alcoholic smell, which I really gives it a whole other characteristic.