Author Topic: Nearlypolitan  (Read 51902 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #200 on: June 11, 2010, 12:11:51 AM »
dhs, I agree with you.  Only so much you can do with AP flour in a home oven, but I like the challenge of it.  I've got this nearlypolitan project on the back burner.  Will hope to solve it's mystery soon.

Made a Nearlypolitan tonight using Toby's technique.  This was made with 100% high gluten bread flour + a bit of oil.  I started the experimental bake in my MBE but the bottom cooked too fast, so I finished it under the broiler.  It was still very tender and hard to distinguish from using caputo 00 flour.   



brayshaw

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #201 on: June 11, 2010, 04:32:17 AM »
That looks so nice Tranman! Details needed! ;D Pepperoni/what meatballs? cheese?
Very, very nice buddy.

Paul

Offline Matthew

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #202 on: June 11, 2010, 06:17:04 AM »
Made a Nearlypolitan tonight using Toby's technique.  This was made with 100% high gluten bread flour + a bit of oil.  I started the experimental bake in my MBE but the bottom cooked too fast, so I finished it under the broiler.  It was still very tender and hard to distinguish from using caputo 00 flour.   



Congratulations; you've arrived! ;D

Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #203 on: June 11, 2010, 08:07:28 AM »
Made a Nearlypolitan tonight using Toby's technique.  This was made with 100% high gluten bread flour + a bit of oil.  I started the experimental bake in my MBE but the bottom cooked too fast, so I finished it under the broiler.  It was still very tender and hard to distinguish from using caputo 00 flour.   



Tranman,

Congrats!  ;D  That is a super-duper looking pie.  :)

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #204 on: June 11, 2010, 12:15:27 PM »
Thanks Norma and Matt for the nice words.  It's nice to have made my way to the country club.  :-D



That looks so nice Tranman! Details needed! ;D Pepperoni/what meatballs? cheese?
Very, very nice buddy.

Paul

Thanks Paul.  This was actually a failed experimental bake in the MBE (mini black egg).  The bottom started charring too fast so I pulled it.  With the top all pale, I took it inside and fired up the broiler (no preheat) and started rimming it against the broiler. 
 
Boar's Head pepperoni (my favorite) & italian sausage spiced with crushed red pepper flakes.  Cheese is Boar's head shredded mozz mixed with a bit of Polly O mozz curds (I don't like this stuff that much).

Paul I've had a lot of failures trying to achieve this pie.  For awhile I thought well it's the flour.  So I got Caputo 00 and that didn't fix it.  Then I thought well maybe it's Toby's special oven and I don't have the right broiler.   Maybe it's this, maybe it's that. Maybe it's the NY water I'm missing or the Caputo Apron.  Maybe I need a mixer?  So many maybe's.  Tried lots of different techniques without success. 

Well for anyone who wants to make a nearlypolitan pie, it's none of those things.  Once I changed up my dough handling technique, it changed everything.  Toby gives a GREAT guideline.

You can make this pie with any flour and hand kneading.  I haven't made it with Pastry yet, but that's next on the list.  I've made it with HG, BF, AP, and Caputo.  The technique is what's important.  Once I changed my technique, the leoparding on the rim started show up more.  I don't have it down completely yet but...

Here's some things that have worked for me.

Same day formulations work best.
commercial yeast or starter or combination of the 2.
Short bulk rise (1-3 hrs)
knead (less is more) as needed and ball
Longer proof or room temp ferment (3-5hrs)

High temp bake.  Must be 800F+.  Possible in the home oven without doing a hack.  Just stick your stone or firebricks under the broiler. 


brayshaw

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #205 on: June 15, 2010, 06:36:21 AM »
Thanks Norma and Matt for the nice words.  It's nice to have made my way to the country club.  :-D



Thanks Paul.  This was actually a failed experimental bake in the MBE (mini black egg).  The bottom started charring too fast so I pulled it.  With the top all pale, I took it inside and fired up the broiler (no preheat) and started rimming it against the broiler. 
 
Boar's Head pepperoni (my favorite) & italian sausage spiced with crushed red pepper flakes.  Cheese is Boar's head shredded mozz mixed with a bit of Polly O mozz curds (I don't like this stuff that much).

Paul I've had a lot of failures trying to achieve this pie.  For awhile I thought well it's the flour.  So I got Caputo 00 and that didn't fix it.  Then I thought well maybe it's Toby's special oven and I don't have the right broiler.   Maybe it's this, maybe it's that. Maybe it's the NY water I'm missing or the Caputo Apron.  Maybe I need a mixer?  So many maybe's.  Tried lots of different techniques without success. 

Well for anyone who wants to make a nearlypolitan pie, it's none of those things.  Once I changed up my dough handling technique, it changed everything.  Toby gives a GREAT guideline.

You can make this pie with any flour and hand kneading.  I haven't made it with Pastry yet, but that's next on the list.  I've made it with HG, BF, AP, and Caputo.  The technique is what's important.  Once I changed my technique, the leoparding on the rim started show up more.  I don't have it down completely yet but...

Here's some things that have worked for me.

Same day formulations work best.
commercial yeast or starter or combination of the 2.
Short bulk rise (1-3 hrs)
knead (less is more) as needed and ball
Longer proof or room temp ferment (3-5hrs)

High temp bake.  Must be 800F+.  Possible in the home oven without doing a hack.  Just stick your stone or firebricks under the broiler. 



I think you have hit the nail on the head Tran! lol I can't believe you attempted a neapolitan without the Apron! noob! :P

Joking aside, that is one of the best looking pizzas I have seen (even without the Apron)

Paul
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 06:39:15 AM by brayshaw »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #206 on: June 15, 2010, 10:54:04 AM »
Thx Paul, much appreciated.   I'm still in the process of tracking down what causes this intense leoparding.  I think the way the dough is prepared and possibly the sudden intense heat of a high temp bake contribute to it but I'm not sure.

Yesterday I made a NY pie with a nearly identical recipe and similar technique, but I cold fermented it for 2 days and got minimal leoparding (pic below).  I also cooked it at a lower temp as well.  So these experiments often lead to more experiments.

My next project is to prepare a Neapolitan dough using the Toby's guidelines but to bake it at a lower temp like a NY pizza.   I'm wanting to do this to see if I cant' get a crispy rim with a slightly crispy bottom but the look and texture of a Nearlypolitan.   

Offline Tampa

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #207 on: June 15, 2010, 11:39:12 AM »
Tranman, you are an inspiration to me.  Great looking Nearlypolitan pie, MBE + Oven cooking, posts all over the place.  Good for you.  Some day I'll have to give 00 flower and high temps another try.  My early results weren't that tasty.

Dave

scott123

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #208 on: June 15, 2010, 04:32:38 PM »
Leoparding is a direct component of heat/bake time and sugar content. High heat/short baking times encourage leoparding while low heat/long baking times encourage even browning. Sugar promotes even browning/discourages leoparding as well.   It's also believed, by some, that acidic environments prevent browning/encourage leoparding. Lastly, oil, if added to a dough, can play a small role, by acting as a heat distributor and promoting even browning.

Malted barley flour has very high levels of sugar (maltose). It also contains enzymes that, when combined with wheat flour and water, aid wheat flour's naturally occurring enzymes in breaking down starches into sugar. In other words, when flour manufacturers add malted barley flour, they're not only adding sugar to the mix, they're adding an ingredient that generates more sugar in the fermented dough. Caputo contains no malted barley flour, so it creates very low sugar doughs.  This lack of sugar is only heightened by traditional Neapolitan same day (or overnight) fermentation. A Caputo based, minimally fermented, low sugar dough will, when exposed to the blistering heat of a WFO,  resist browning/brown unevenly (leopard). If Neapolitan pizza crust could talk, it would say "I don't have much sugar, so when you blast me with heat, I'm going to resist browning (for a bit) and then brown/burn in spots instead."

American flours are almost all malted. This makes them unsuitable for extremely high heat settings (above 750) because the additional sugar in the dough will have a tendency to burn incredibly fast, so the window between done and overdone will be minuscule.

If you crank up the heat enough, any dough will leopard, and, if you lower the heat enough, any dough will brown evenly, but low sugar flours/doughs are engineered for higher heat leopard promoting environments while higher sugar flours/dough are engineered for less heat/longer baking times and even browning.

This is one of the many reasons why one finds such a distinct separation between Neapolitan and NY pizza styles- a different oven changes the whole ball game. It also explains why these styles are so particular about the flours they use. NY flour doesn't really work for Neapolitan- and vice versa.

foolishpoolish

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #209 on: June 15, 2010, 04:42:13 PM »
@scott123
IMO and from my observations, leoparding has nothing to do with sugar content (at least not directly).
However I think I see what you're saying: malted flours will promote a more even browning while unmalted flours tend to be paler (not necessarily sure that's always the case). The specific type of blistering which forms leopard spots is not directly influenced by the residual sugar from fermentation.
Or put another way - I agree with you that the 'colour contrast' between leopard spots and crust is influenced by sugar levels.

My (numerous) tests/experiments so far in this area tend to support the traditional view that long fermentation using relatively small amounts of leaven produces dough of a suitable 'condition' for 'leopard spots'/blistering to occur when baked under high heat. All other things being equal (which they inevitably aren't!) I find ~18 to 20 hours room fermentation is the minimum required for significant blistering of the 'leopard' sort.

FP
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 05:17:26 PM by foolishpoolish »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #210 on: June 15, 2010, 04:58:21 PM »
I don't understand the science behind it but the last time I made nearlypolitan pies, 1 made with HG flour and 1 with Caputo, the HG one exhibited more leoparding.  I'll have to redo the test to see if I can replicate the results.

FP, nice to see you back. A million THANKS!!!

foolishpoolish

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #211 on: June 15, 2010, 05:05:07 PM »
@Tranman
Well I think the 'science' has more to do with physics than organic chemistry.

There is a difference between crust simply going dark in spots, and crust forming rapidly expanding blisters or 'bubbles' which turn dark/black. Perhaps it might be more appropriate to refer to leopard spots as 'pizza pox'?  :D
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 05:18:18 PM by foolishpoolish »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #212 on: June 15, 2010, 05:25:31 PM »
@Tranman
Well I think the 'science' has more to do with physics than organic chemistry.

There is a difference between crust simply going dark in spots, and crust forming rapidly expanding blisters or 'bubbles' which turn dark/black. Perhaps it might be more appropriate to refer to leopard spots as 'pizza pox'?  :D


FP, I'll take what I can get.  Right now I'm more than thrilled about the dark spots.  If I could replicate the pizza pox I would.  I don't know how you do it, but you get it done. 

Would you mind posting a picture of what pizza pox looks like so our viewers at home can know as well?  ;)  BTW, no body (with a home oven) even comes close to your stuff. :chef:

foolishpoolish

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #213 on: June 15, 2010, 05:27:39 PM »
FP, I'll take what I can get.  Right now I'm more than thrilled about the dark spots.  If I could replicate the pizza pox I would.  I don't know how you do it, but you get it done. 

Would you mind posting a picture of what pizza pox looks like so our viewers at home can know as well?  ;)  BTW, no body (with a home oven) even comes close to your stuff. :chef:
Tranman,
From the pics I've seen of your pies, I'm afraid I have to inform you that you may have contracted the pox.... Be warned, it is contagious ;)

scott123

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #214 on: June 15, 2010, 06:12:41 PM »
@scott123
IMO and from my observations, leoparding has nothing to do with sugar content (at least not directly).
However I think I see what you're saying: malted flours will promote a more even browning while unmalted flours tend to be paler (not necessarily sure that's always the case). The specific type of blistering which forms leopard spots is not directly influenced by the residual sugar from fermentation.
Or put another way - I agree with you that the 'colour contrast' between leopard spots and crust is influenced by sugar levels.

My (numerous) tests/experiments so far in this area tend to support the traditional view that long fermentation using relatively small amounts of leaven produces dough of a suitable 'condition' for 'leopard spots'/blistering to occur when baked under high heat. All other things being equal (which they inevitably aren't!) I find ~18 to 20 hours room fermentation is the minimum required for significant blistering of the 'leopard' sort.

FP

FP, just so we're clear on the terminology, I've attached two photos, the first is one of your pies as an example of leoparding and the second is a recent posted photo that displays blistering.

Now, a leopard 'spot' if subjected to additional heat, will eventually turn dark black and blister (aka 'burn' :) ), but that's not the kind of blistering any of us is striving for.

As I'm sure you're aware, a multitude of blistering theories abound. The leading theory is one of heavily extended cold fermentation, but I'm not sure if I buy into that as I've had same day doughs exhibit blisters.

Leoparding, though, is about both chemistry and physics.  You don't get browning without sugar and protein.  The less sugar you have the less propensity for browning. Physics comes into play when you have uneven browning as a result of intense radiative heat- the higher the radiative (broiling) heat, the more you experience splotchy browning/burning aka leoparding.

If you're requiring an 18 hour minimum for leoparding (not blistering), then I think that could relate directly to the temperatures you're hitting in your modified oven setup. Your broiler may not be pumping out the typical 1000+ degrees radiative heat of a WFO, even with the increased impact of closer proximity that you've put in place. Extended fermentation is creating more sugar in your dough.  Although that additional sugar will have a tendency to create a little less contrast between the dark spots and the surrounding pale areas, you're oven is still hot enough to create very distinct dark spots.


foolishpoolish

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #215 on: June 15, 2010, 06:23:36 PM »
FP, just so we're clear on the terminology, I've attached two photos, the first is one of your pies as an example of leoparding and the second is a recent posted photo that displays blistering.

Now, a leopard 'spot' if subjected to additional heat, will eventually turn dark black and blister (aka 'burn' :) ), but that's not the kind of blistering any of us is striving for.

As I'm sure you're aware, a multitude of blistering theories abound. The leading theory is one of heavily extended cold fermentation, but I'm not sure if I buy into that as I've had same day doughs exhibit blisters.

Leoparding, though, is about both chemistry and physics.  You don't get browning without sugar and protein.  The less sugar you have the less propensity for browning. Physics comes into play when you have uneven browning as a result of intense radiative heat- the higher the radiative (broiling) heat, the more you experience splotchy browning/burning aka leoparding.

If you're requiring an 18 hour minimum for leoparding (not blistering), then I think that could relate directly to the temperatures you're hitting in your modified oven setup. Your broiler may not be pumping out the typical 1000+ degrees radiative heat of a WFO, even with the increased impact of closer proximity that you've put in place. Extended fermentation is creating more sugar in your dough.  Although that additional sugar will have a tendency to create a little less contrast between the dark spots and the surrounding pale areas, you're oven is still hot enough to create very distinct dark spots.


Scott we are getting our lines crossed here I think.
The picture I posted several months back is not a good example of what I'm trying to demonstrate/explai.

Perhaps I used the wrong term when referring to 'blisters'. However, we are essentially talking about the same thing - definite RAISED blisters (rather than flat dark spots)...like little pimples that seemingly spontaenously pop-up from the surface of the crust and may (or may not) darken

All I can say, is that I don't use a modified oven and I assure you it has nothing to do with sugar.
 
Gosh it's hard to explain and I can't currently post pictures (I only have 4 posts to my name) but if you google motorino or da michele - you will get a good idea of what I'm talking about. I've achieved significant raised blisters on a piece of dough that was mixed and rested for no more than 2 minutes...but that's quite another story.

The 18 hour minimum (including proofing) is a figure I quoted for room temperature ferment for a specific dough. I am not in any way suggesting it's the only method to get blistering. To clarify - I think we need to separate between colour differential and the actual blistering effect (as demonstrated in your pictures above). To obtain BOTH requires the right dough condition AND high heat.




« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 06:26:24 PM by foolishpoolish »

scott123

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #216 on: June 15, 2010, 06:30:19 PM »
Perhaps I used the wrong term when referring to 'blisters'. However, we are essentially talking about the same thing - definite RAISED blisters (rather than flat dark spots)...like little pimples that seemingly spontaenously pop-up from the surface of the crust and may (or may not) darken

No we are definitely not talking about the same thing.  Leoparding is flat dark spots. Flat dark spots are directly related to heat and sugar. Blistering (raised spots that may or may not be dark) has, as far as I can tell, nothing to do with sugar, but has a causal link to extended fermentation.

I think you and I define 'leoparding' differently :)

foolishpoolish

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #217 on: June 15, 2010, 06:34:10 PM »
No we are definitely not talking about the same thing.  Leoparding is flat dark spots. Flat dark spots are directly related to heat and sugar. Blistering (raised spots that may or may not be dark) has, as far as I can tell, nothing to do with sugar, but has a causal link to extended fermentation.

I think you and I define 'leoparding' differently :)

Well in that case I defer to your definition. :)
Blisters it is....although pizza pox sounds more infectious ;)


foolishpoolish

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #218 on: June 15, 2010, 06:39:50 PM »
Cool I think I can post pics now.
Scott, I would appreciate your opinion on these pictures (blistering or leoparding?)
You mentioned that burnt leopard spots is not what "any of us is striving for"...if so - what specifically should we be looking for?

« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 07:05:43 PM by foolishpoolish »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #219 on: June 15, 2010, 06:49:30 PM »
Now that's a Nearlypolitan pie!  1st one is leoparding some blistering and 2nd one is blisters with some leoparding. 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 06:51:05 PM by Tranman »