Nearlypolitan

[scott123]

Cool I think I can post pics now.
Scott, I would appreciate your opinion on these pictures (blistering or leoparding?)
You mentioned that burnt leopard spots is not what "any of us is striving for"...if so - what specifically should we be looking for?

Toby, maybe I shouldn't have said 'any' of us is 'striving for.'  I probably should have gone with something like burnt leopard spots are the kind of blistering that 'most' of us are 'trying to minimize.' We're definitely into a subjective area, but I think the same rules apply to top char as they do to bottom char.  In a high heat environment, there's nothing you can do about some leopard spots charring and bubbling, but for your average Neapolitan pie lover, I think more than a few is too much. Post #1 of this thread is, to me, the perfect harmony between leoparding and burning blisters.

Now, as far as non burning blistering goes... I'm sure there are those that disagree, but I associate that more with NY style. As you know, it does crop up in Neapolitan pies, and, although I'm not saying it should be avoided, I also don't think steps should be taken to achieve it. I always associate those types of blisters with the relatively even coloring/slight crunch of a NY pie. That's where they really get exciting.  With the pale/spotted contrast and softer exterior of a Neapolitan pie, the crunchy blisters feel a little out of place.

As far as the photos go, #1 is leoparding (taken a bit too far, imo), #2 is definitely blistering, and, as I mentioned before, the blistering/even coloring feels a little out of place for classical Neapolitan.  #3 is leoparding.

[foolishpoolish]

Toby, maybe I shouldn't have said 'any' of us is 'striving for.'  I probably should have gone with something like burnt leopard spots are the kind of blistering that 'most' of us are 'trying to minimize.' We're definitely into a subjective area, but I think the same rules apply to top char as they do to bottom char.  In a high heat environment, there's nothing you can do about some leopard spots charring and bubbling, but for your average Neapolitan pie lover, I think more than a few is too much. Post #1 of this thread is, to me, the perfect harmony between leoparding and burning blisters.

Now, as far as non burning blistering goes... I'm sure there are those that disagree, but I associate that more with NY style. As you know, it does crop up in Neapolitan pies, and, although I'm not saying it should be avoided, I also don't think steps should be taken to achieve it. I always associate those types of blisters with the relatively even coloring/slight crunch of a NY pie. That's where they really get exciting.  With the pale/spotted contrast and softer exterior of a Neapolitan pie, the crunchy blisters feel a little out of place.

As far as the photos go, #1 is leoparding (taken a bit too far, imo), #2 is definitely blistering, and, as I mentioned before, the blistering/even coloring feels a little out of place for classical Neapolitan.  #3 is leoparding.

Thanks for the explanation/expansion - I think I understand it better now. I agree the blistering in #2 is definitely not a 'typical neapolitan' aesthetic. #1 was cold fermented and #3 was around the 18 hour mark (as I described earlier). #2 was about 12 hours and using a stronger flour than the others.

[scott123]

I'm curious, what was the duration of cold fermentation on #1? What did you think of the taste?

[foolishpoolish]

I'm curious, what was the duration of cold fermentation on #1? What did you think of the taste?

I bulk fermented at room temp for 4 hours (I think? damn I need to keep better notes) - balled and refrigerated for 24 hours and then warmed up (room temp) for about 3 hours before shaping and baking.
It was just a touch too sour for my tastes.

[hotsawce]

To me, a lot of Varasno's pizza are true leoparding.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2629738631_00a27d54ce_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3176/2629737599_6a74fb55e5_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3140/2629746693_c722f5efe2_b.jpg

You can see it a bit in the Da Michele and Trianon pies as well
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/2630566168_8696d746dc_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3274/2630566844_b461d7de43_o.jpg

Notice how there really aren't deep, dark black blisters. There are a few small ones, but it's more like a browned crust with areas that are starting to fade to black, but aren't blistered. For me, that's proper leoparding.

I'm a bit curious as to how they get the mild leoparding, because most of what I see from places...even motorino or Keste are fairly extreme. Could it be a wetter dough? Or maybe the oven temp....doesn't varasano have his closer to 850?

[Jackie Tran]

HS, did you order those pies?  How did the varasano pie taste?  any crunch to the rim?  To get mild leoparding just pull the pie sooner? 

The lasts 2 pies have a deflated rim, I would think that is a no no. 

[foolishpoolish]

I'd like to offer wholehearted apologies to Hotsawce and all the other fine members of this forum for my previous unacceptable behaviour and posting on the 'Nearlypolitan thread' (and other related threads). My irrational and immature emotional reactions to commentary which had nothing to do with me in the first place were completely uncalled for. It was absurd and stupid of me to react in such a way. In doing so I have created unnecessary drama and a negative atmosphere where none should exist. For this, I also apologise.

I harbour no animosity towards any member of these forums and hope you can accept this as a sincere apology for any action or post of mine that caused distress, upset or appeared as malicious sarcasm.

Thanks

FP

[Matthew]

I'd like to offer wholehearted apologies to Hotsawce and all the other fine members of this forum for my previous unacceptable behaviour and posting on the 'Nearlypolitan thread' (and other related threads). My irrational and immature emotional reactions to commentary which had nothing to do with me in the first place were completely uncalled for. It was absurd and stupid of me to react in such a way. In doing so I have created unnecessary drama and a negative atmosphere where none should exist. For this, I also apologise.

I harbour no animosity towards any member of these forums and hope you can accept this as a sincere apology for any action or post of mine that caused distress, upset or appeared as malicious sarcasm.

Thanks

FP

Toby?  Glad to have you back bro!

Matt

[Jackie Tran]

Finally got these black nasty dirty warts for the first time in the home oven.     Anyone know where these come from?

[gtsum2]

there sure are some good looking pies in this thread!  Makes me want to fool around with the broiler now!

[David Deas]

Thought I'd contribute at least something to this thread too before I stopped.

00 flour.  60% hydration.  Cold fermented sourdough.  40 second bake.

[David Deas]

Crumb shot.

I've got to halt this insane madness, get my lazy rear end outside and light some wood.

[Jackie Tran]

Beautiful work David.  That crumb looks perfect.

Chau

[fornographer]

great work, David.

[TXCraig1]

Look like it is straight from Naples.

[Kermit]

Very nice pie. How long did it ferment?

[David Deas]

Beautiful work David.  That crumb looks perfect.

Chau

Thanks, Chau.  It was your impressive work in the home oven area that was such a big part of getting me going with the project in the first place.  

I have to admit that I'm sort of liking the 15 minute Nearlypolitan concept.  The WFO takes forever to saturate by comparison.  Not to mention, saturating the WFO for one or two pizzas is a waste of my oak.

great work, David.

I really do appreciate the compliments.  Thank you.

Look like it is straight from Naples.

Thanks a lot man.  That's high praise coming from you.  Especially considering it actually came from a home oven.

Very nice pie. How long did it ferment?

About two or three days.  I can't remember which, or even what day I made the dough on.  

About the only thing I really remember about the dough is that it was too wet.  I used cold water, which made me overestimate the amount of water needed when I was putting the dough together.  I probably only needed about maybe 57% hydration.

I also remember that the starter was very clean; no sourness in the crust.

[weissblut]

Hi guys,

wrote a very long post but the browser canceled it. Just to say that I really love this topic, and this week tried my first "Nearlypolitan" in home oven with pizza stone, 2 hours pre-heating, 20 mins broiler cycle, only broiler cooking. I tried also to follow some advices from a very kind user of this forum - thanks!

Here's what I did:

DOUGH:
500g Flour (plain organic, not 00 unfortunately)
330g water
1g yeast (dried)
14g salt

First part - dough fermented (covered) for 12 hours
Balls fermented for 7 hours

1. The dough was too wet and was sticky. I think I overfermented the balls, they were spreading a lot, but did not want to alter the first try. This resulted in the pizza breaking while putting on the stone... well, it happens! 
2. Oven at 500F for 2 hours with pizza stone, then moved stone under the grill (2 inches), turned it on the grill, then put the pizza on the stone
3. Cooked in 4 mins - No leoparding, very small browning. the pizza stayed yellowish, with a very small leoparding on the back. The taste was ok but not great. Bubbles were present but not big empty spaces (which I wish to achieve!)

Mistakes I'll fix next weekend:

1. Different dough formula. I want to try to keep all the proportions in place but go for a 56% hydration (that actually depends on what flour I'll find, I've used a standard organic plain flour because I did not manage to find anything else).
2. I've used "passata" because I had no time for shopping. Next time I'll use italian San Marzano tomatoes and will create my own sauce.
3. Will reduce the amount of space between the grill and the pizza, and will put a "block" 1 inches under the stone to create a mini-oven inside the oven to keep the temp up. I'm waiting to receive my Infrared thermometer, so I will be more precise on the temperature.

Hope next time to have a better pic, and to reduce the cooking time to 2 mins...

Here's the pic. All suggestions accepted, but before here's my next-step list:

00 Caputo flour (or similar)
organic sea salt
live yeast (or Criscito, but I have to learn how to create it - do you have any recipe?)

My aim is to have a good home-oven pizza, with all the limitations!

I'm sorry to post this bad image of a badly pizza, but I hope to improve with your help!

Thanks for all your suggestions!

D.

[TXCraig1]

Nice looking first pie. I especially like the look of the cheese. Here are my initial thoughts.

66% hydration is high. I’m not surprised your dough was wet and sticky. You need specialized kneading technique when you go that high. I don’t know if you need to drop all the way down to 56%. Next time, you might try 300g water for 60% hydration. It should be a lot more manageable. 60% should also help get the open crumb structure you are looking for vs. 56%.

You don’t need 00 flour, and it will be harder for you to brown your pies if you use it.

Are you sure your broiler was actually on? Was it glowing red? Just because you have it turned on doesn’t mean it is on. If your oven is at its maximum temp, the broiler might not come on. You might need to preheat below the maximum temp to get the broiler to come on. I’d experiment to make sure the oven is doing what you think it is doing before your next bake.

I’d suggest you get your basic dough and oven technique down before incorporating a natural (sourdough) starter (I’m guessing this is what you meant by “live” yeast? Your dry yeast is alive; it’s just a different type).Using a natural starter adds another level of complexity that will make figuring out the basics that much harder.

When writing a long post, type it into something like MS Word or some other editor then copy it over to pizzamaking.com. This website is notorious for eating posts. That way, when it does, you just copy it over again.

Best of luck.

Craig

[weissblut]

Nice looking first pie. I especially like the look of the cheese. Here are my initial thoughts.

66% hydration is high. I’m not surprised your dough was wet and sticky. You need specialized kneading technique when you go that high. I don’t know if you need to drop all the way down to 56%. Next time, you might try 300g water for 60% hydration. It should be a lot more manageable. 60% should also help get the open crumb structure you are looking for vs. 56%.

You don’t need 00 flour, and it will be harder for you to brown your pies if you use it.

Are you sure your broiler was actually on? Was it glowing red? Just because you have it turned on doesn’t mean it is on. If your oven is at its maximum temp, the broiler might not come on. You might need to preheat below the maximum temp to get the broiler to come on. I’d experiment to make sure the oven is doing what you think it is doing before your next bake.

I’d suggest you get your basic dough and oven technique down before incorporating a natural (sourdough) starter (I’m guessing this is what you meant by “live” yeast? Your dry yeast is alive; it’s just a different type).Using a natural starter adds another level of complexity that will make figuring out the basics that much harder.

When writing a long post, type it into something like MS Word or some other editor then copy it over to pizzamaking.com. This website is notorious for eating posts. That way, when it does, you just copy it over again.

Best of luck.

Craig

Thanks Craig!

Of course I need to "refine" my technique and understanding of how everything works. Someone pointed out that I used a low protein flour, not really good for pizza, and that's why I got this kind of result - so I'll try to find the perfect flour.

My aim is not to get the browning actually, but a white pizza with leoparding and black bubbles (the way I like it!).

The broiler was glowing red but not always - so what do you suggest as oven test? preheat the stone as MAX TEMP (500F) and then leave it under 400F to make the broiler kick in?

thanks again, I will make other tests and post the results here!

ciao,

Dario