Author Topic: Nearlypolitan  (Read 51875 times)

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Infoodel

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Nearlypolitan
« on: January 13, 2010, 04:34:36 PM »
Neapolitan-style-tomfoolery tonight.
I was experimenting with steaming the oven - which didn't work. This pie came at the end (no steam):


Offline Matthew

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2010, 06:06:46 PM »
Bravo!  The best results I've ever seen out of a conventional oven!

Matt

Offline Bob1

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2010, 06:16:35 PM »
What temp did you use?

Thanks,

Bob1

Infoodel

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2010, 06:30:12 PM »
@Matthew: Thanks! I think there's still room for some improvement (isn't there always?) but flavourwise it's finally getting close to where I want it.

@Bob1: I'm always kind of embarrassed when someone asks me that question because I can't honestly say (having no IR thermometer or similar gizmo.) I know  the oven itself is maxed out at 500ishF prior to the usual broiler shenanigans.
Wish I could be more specific. Sorry.

Cheers,

Toby





Offline Bob1

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2010, 06:49:01 PM »
@Bob1: I'm always kind of embarrassed when someone asks me that question because I can't honestly say (having no IR thermometer or similar gizmo.) I know  the oven itself is maxed out at 500ishF prior to the usual broiler shenanigans.
Wish I could be more specific. Sorry.


Close enough guess,  It means I have a shot at it some day.  Very nice.

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Matthew

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2010, 06:54:38 PM »
@Matthew: Thanks! I think there's still room for some improvement (isn't there always?) but flavourwise it's finally getting close to where I want it.

@Bob1: I'm always kind of embarrassed when someone asks me that question because I can't honestly say (having no IR thermometer or similar gizmo.) I know  the oven itself is maxed out at 500ishF prior to the usual broiler shenanigans.
Wish I could be more specific. Sorry.

Cheers,







Toby

Toby if I remember correctly you do the entire bake under the broiler, no?

Matt

« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 08:26:36 PM by Matthew »

Infoodel

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2010, 08:23:20 PM »

Yes you're quite right except the stone is heated first using the regular oven heating elements...so that part is @ 500-550F.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 02:44:10 PM »
Bravo!  The best results I've ever seen out of a conventional oven!

Matt

I concur - that is without a doubt the finest looking pie I've seen come out of a conventional oven. Wow!

Craig
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 02:48:54 PM by TXCraig1 »
Pizza is not bread.

Online JConk007

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 10:24:32 PM »
Yes that is Beautiful!! Nice work! Caputo flour?
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline thezaman

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2010, 10:34:44 PM »
yes, that is the best looking non wood fired pizza i have seen!! can you divulge you system?


Infoodel

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2010, 10:49:52 PM »
Thanks, Craig, John, Zaman.

John - it's not Caputo. It's from Molino Alimonti and it's their organic or 'bio' 00 flour. At their quoted 11% protein, I suspect it's slightly weaker than caputo pizzeria or rinforzato.

Zaman - Sure - I heat the stone for a couple of hours (max temp of the oven which is around 500-550F) and then place it under the broiler for ~20 minutes (the thermostat will shut it off typically once during that time).
I shape the base and when the broiler clicks back on, I finish topping it and transfer the pizza to the stone. The cook time is ~2 minutes during which I give it one, maybe two small turns (making sure it's gone through at least 90 degrees). Allow a few minutes (or one broiler cycle) between pizzas. That's about it.

Toby



Offline scottfsmith

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2010, 09:28:01 AM »
Nice!!  My guess is the combo of the stone heat plus the stone creating a mini-oven area by the top of the boiler (the broiler heat only has to heat the very upper part since the stone blocks flow to the rest) puts the temps at about 700-750F by the pizza.  What distance is the stone from the broiler flame?  That is a critical variable.

Scott

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2010, 09:50:24 AM »
Toby,

I'm surprised that no one has yet asked you how you make your dough (formulation, procedure, etc.). I believe that you have revealed these details before and, if so, can you repost them here or provide a link to the topic?

Cheers.

Peter

Infoodel

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2010, 10:55:42 AM »
Thanks Scott - I think you're right regarding the effect of the broiler. I just took a ruler to the oven and the gap is 2.5"

Pete:
I also thought I might have posted something similar before but since I'm always tinkering with the recipe, it's probably best I write the following from my most recent notes:

Quantities shown for 5 dough balls

Levain
185g 00 flour (100%)
135g water (73%)
30g 100% hydration storage starter (16%)

I mixed the levain hoping for a 24 hour ferment but it ended up nearer 18. Ambient temperature was ~72F

Final Dough
770g 00 flour (100%)
460g water (60%)
300g levain (39%)
23g salt (3%, effectively 2.4% compared to total flour)

  • First I mixed 80% of the flour, all the water and the levain until even and let it rest for 20 minutes.
  • Then I added the salt and gradually mixed in the remaining flour, followed by another 20 minute rest.p
  • The dough was then kneaded (using 'slap and fold') until 'window-pane'. (I don't recall exactly how long but I remember it being hard work!)
  • Bulk fermented the dough at ~72F for 10 hours (longer than I intended originally).
  • Divided and shaped the dough into 280g balls which were then proofed at  the same temperature for 4 hours before baking.
  • The baking procedure I've already outlined earlier in this thread.

I'm a bit out of practice with opening up the dough, although I'm getting better about 'closing' the dough balls after shaping. The pizzas ended up only around 11" diameter.

I think that covers most of the details. I'm planning to increase the hydration just a shade in the next batch and maybe using an autolyse (as I have done in the past)...but otherwise I'm fairly happy with the dough.  The flavour was quite satisfactory, at least for my tastes.

Cheers,

Toby

edited: added weights.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 11:39:51 AM by Infoodel »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2010, 11:24:29 AM »
Toby,

Would it be possible to attach some weights to the percents? Also, is the levain as a percent of total formula flour, total formula water, or total dough weight? And is the storage starter (which I assume starts out cold) 16% of the levain flour?

Thanks.

Peter

Infoodel

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2010, 11:36:42 AM »
Toby,

Would it be possible to attach some weights to the percents? Also, is the levain as a percent of total formula flour, total formula water, or total dough weight? And is the storage starter (which I assume starts out cold) 16% of the levain flour?

Thanks.

Peter
Good thing I did as well - I realised my water % in the final dough was way off!
I think it's good now.
The levain is expressed as a percentage of 'additional' flour used in the final dough.

Cheers,

Toby

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2010, 01:50:02 PM »
Toby,

Thank you very much.

In order to see the total dough formula, I used your data in the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. However, as I started to do that, I noted that your levain weighs 350 grams, of which you apparently used 300 grams in the Final Dough. To use the preferment dough calculating tool, I first scaled your levain down to 300 grams, as follows:

Levain
00 Flour, 158.57 grams (100%)
Water, 115.71 grams (72.97%)
Storage starter, 25.71 grams (16.22%) (100% hydration)
Total: 300 grams
Note: Percents are with respect to the levain flour

I then calculated the total formula flour and water based on the data you provided. For total formula flour, I got 941.43 grams, and for total formula water, I got 588.57 grams. Adding 23 grams of salt to these values yields a total dough weight of 1553 grams (of this, you apparently used 5 x 280 grams = 1400 grams).

The 300 grams of levain represents (a) 31.87% of the total formula flour, (b) 50.97% of the total formula water, or (c) 19.32% of the total dough weight. For the preferment dough calculating tool, I used the 31.87% number but any of the other values will produce the identical result. The final number I needed for the preferment dough calculating tool was the percent of water in your levain. I calculated a total water content of 128.57 grams and a total flour content of 171.43 grams (the combined total is 300 grams). Dividing 128.57 by 300 gave me 42.86% as the number to use in the tool.

After all was said and done, I ended up with the following:

Total Formula:
00 Flour (100%):
Water (62.5190%):
Salt (2.44309%):
Total (164.96209%):

Preferment (Levain):
00 Flour:
Water:
Total:


Final Dough:
00 Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment (Levain):
Total:

941.43 g  |  33.21 oz | 2.08 lbs
588.57 g  |  20.76 oz | 1.3 lbs
23 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.12 tsp | 1.37 tbsp
1553 g | 54.78 oz | 3.42 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
171.43 g | 6.05 oz | 0.38 lbs
128.57 g | 4.54 oz | 0.28 lbs
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
(Note: Preferment = 31.87% of the total formula flour weight; the preferment % of water = 42.86%

 
770 g | 27.16 oz | 1.7 lbs
460 g | 16.23 oz | 1.01 lbs
23 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.12 tsp | 1.37 tbsp
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
1553 g | 54.78 oz | 3.42 lbs  | TF = N/A

I realize that you have been using a somewhat different approach, but would you mind checking out my numbers and analysis? If everything is in order, one should be able to scale your dough formulation to a larger or smaller dough batch size using the preferment dough calculating tool. Of course, in making the levain, users will have to apportion the levain as you did between flour, water and the storage starter, using the percents specified above for the levain, and using the prefermentation method you described. They would also use the method you described to make the Final Dough.

For 280 grams of dough for a roughly 11" pizza, that translates into a thickness factor of (280/28.35)/(3.14159 x 5.5 x 5.5) = 0.103927. That number should be usable in the preferment dough calculating tool but one might want to use a bowl residue compensation to compensate for dough losses during preparation. That value will vary depending on whether the dough is made by hand or using a machine. When I used the thickness factor option with the preferment dough calculating tool for 5 pizzas with dough ball weights of 270 grams, with no bowl residue compensation, I got the following:

Total Formula:
00 Flour (100%):
Water (62.5190%):
Salt (2.44309%):
Total (164.96209%):
Single Ball:

Preferment (Levain):
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment (Levain):
Total:

848.68 g  |  29.94 oz | 1.87 lbs
530.58 g  |  18.72 oz | 1.17 lbs
20.73 g | 0.73 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.71 tsp | 1.24 tbsp
1400 g | 49.38 oz | 3.09 lbs | TF = 0.103927
280 g | 9.88 oz | 0.62 lbs
 
 
154.54 g | 5.45 oz | 0.34 lbs
115.9 g | 4.09 oz | 0.26 lbs
270.44 g | 9.54 oz | 0.6 lbs

 
694.14 g | 24.48 oz | 1.53 lbs
414.68 g | 14.63 oz | 0.91 lbs
20.73 g | 0.73 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.71 tsp | 1.24 tbsp
270.44 g | 9.54 oz | 0.6 lbs
1400 g | 49.38 oz | 3.09 lbs  | TF = 0.103927
Note: Dough for five 11" pizzas; no bowl residue compensation

Peter

Infoodel

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2010, 03:15:20 PM »
Pete,
Thank you so much for doing all the number crunching. The numbers you've got there match up with those I had when I was doing my own calculations.
I got a bit confused with the 31.87% and 42.86% figures until I realised you were comparing the levain to TOTAL flour and TOTAL water. It's not the way I'm used to doing calculations so it threw me a bit - but I see now where the figures come from.

As you noticed, the formula I gave yielded more levain than was needed and the final dough yielded roughly 5.5 dough balls. That was my own approach to compensating for bowl/mixing loss - not a particularly scientific one, I'm afraid! I originally intended to take some of the residual final dough and use it as 'old dough' in the next batch but I was pleased enough with the flavour that I'd be happy to make this from storage starter again next time.

Thanks again for doing the analysis!

Cheers,

Toby
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 03:18:04 PM by Infoodel »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2010, 03:46:38 PM »
Toby,

You made such a beautiful looking pizza that I hope others will be motivated to try your dough formulation for any desired amount of dough or for any desired number and sizes of pizzas.

The reason for the three choices for stating percents of preferment is that different dough formulations and different people use different ways of reciting preferment use. Also, some people have preferences. Bill/SFNM, for example, prefers using the percent of dough weight method. I tend to use percent of total flour weight. Those who make Neapolitan style pizzas often prefer to use the percent of total water weight (as is used in Naples). When we designed the preferment dough calculating tool we decided to have all three choices as options.

When I use a stand mixer, I use a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, although I might jump that to 2-3% or more for highly hydrated doughs or for hand kneaded doughs that can stick to just about everything.

FYI, the hydration of your levain is about 75%. That places it in between a natural poolish and a natural sponge. Can you tell us how you determine when to use your levain. With commercially leavened poolish and sponge preferments, the usual indicator to use the preferment is reaching the break point.

Peter

Infoodel

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Re: Nearlypolitan
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2010, 04:47:46 PM »
Thanks Pete.
Your breakdown of the numbers will definitely make it easier for people to try the formula.
Regarding the levain hydration: yes 75% is what I was going for.
How do I gauge levain ripeness? Pretty much as you mentioned. When it reaches a peak volume and starts to show signs of giving around the sides - it is ready.

Cheers,
Toby