experimental Pizza with rye sponge starter and a lot of ADY

[norma427]

I found this thread started by giotto, while I was searching for other information.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.0.html  After reading some of the thread, and reading at Reply 122  by giotto, how there was over usage of yeast in pizza recipes
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg17214.html#msg17214 and then continuing reading to post at Reply 126 by giotto about rye appearing to contain hydration levels
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg17408.html#msg17408 and next Peter posting at Reply 127 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg17409.html#msg17409 about Alice Waters using rye flour in one of her basic pizza dough recipes, specifically, in a sponge, I thought the recipe Peter copied and pasted would be a good experiment to see how quick that much yeast would make a dough rise.  I can’t recall using that much yeast before too many times,  so I gave the recipe a try this morning.  I mixed the rye flour ADY, and water together and put the sponge in the oven with the oven light on.  Within a little over a half an hour the sponge was bubbly and really smelled of yeast.  I added the other ingredients and in less than three hours the dough looked like it had at least tripled in volume or more.  I only used the paddle attachment on my Kitchen Aid mixer to see if the dough would come together okay.  I knew I was going to use this dough in Steve’s WFO this evening so I thought I better freeze the dough because I knew it probably would be overblown by this evening.   The dough then sat at room temperature for about 3 hrs to defrost before baking.  The dough didn’t feel sticky and did open well.  The taste of the crust was good, but it sure was different.  In my opinion this recipe gave me a good idea how much more yeast will rise a dough fast and also how fast a starter can be made with rye, ADY, and water. No yeast was in the final dough.  I also got to play around with volume measurements to see if a pizza would turn out okay.  

In my opinion the whole thread that giotto started has a lot of good information, if anyone is interested in reading the whole thread.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[Pete-zza]

In my opinion the whole thread that giotto started has a lot of good information, if anyone is interested in reading the whole thread.

Norma,

The giotto thread that you referenced (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg4542.html#msg4542) has always been one of my favorites, perhaps because it was one of the first major threads that I participated in shortly after I joined the forum. Remember, that thread was started better than six and a half years ago. The thread became more of a colloquy between giotto and me. That is the way it was back then. There were perhaps around 150 members at the time, and few members posted. It was actually quite lonely, so I welcomed an opportunity to learn from giotto and to share what I knew at the time. The forum was actually more fun at that time than it is now, at least for me. I was able to take more time to compose my posts and if you went on vacation for a week you didn't miss much. Try that today, and you will be greeted by over 900 new posts upon your return (based on the current rate of posting).

I reread the giotto thread today and I still learn from it. Unfortunately, most of the links no longer work but there is still a lot of useful information in the thread.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The giotto thread that you referenced (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg4542.html#msg4542) has always been one of my favorites, perhaps because it was one of the first major threads that I participated in shortly after I joined the forum. Remember, that thread was started better than six and a half years ago. The thread became more of a colloquy between giotto and me. That is the way it was back then. There were perhaps around 150 members at the time, and few members posted. It was actually quite lonely, so I welcomed an opportunity to learn from giotto and to share what I knew at the time. The forum was actually more fun at that time than it is now, at least for me. I was able to take more time to compose my posts and if you went on vacation for a week you didn't miss much. Try that today, and you will be greeted by over 900 new posts upon your return (based on the current rate of posting).

I reread the giotto thread today and I still learn from it. Unfortunately, most of the links no longer work but there is still a lot of useful information in the thread.

Peter

Peter,

I also found the giotto thread quite interesting and plan on reading it though again. giotto sure was curious and did try many experiments.  I am sure I missed much that was posted. There is a lot of information in all those pages.  I didn’t know that was one of your first threads you participated in.  I did see how long ago the thread was started.  I can understand the forum was more friendly then, because there were less posts and now there is so many members posting that it is hard to keep up with all the posts and experiments.

I want to try the experiment I did yesterday again, but use less ADY.  That was a lot of ADY, but I wanted to see what would happen with using that much ADY in the sponge.  I wonder how the experiment would work out, using less ADY.  Although I only used the volume measurements to see what would happen, I would be interested in knowing what kind of baker’s percents there were in that recipe.  I might try to figure that out someday.  It was interesting to be able to create a sponge in such a short while.  The taste of the crust was good, with all that sponge added.  I can’t decide if the crust had a sourdough taste or not, but it was different.  That was a lot of olive oil added also.  At least it gave me a new way to try to make dough.  The dough was sticky when I first mixed it, but became less sticky after doing a few stretch and folds.  I think the dough would have overfermented if I hadn’t placed it into the freezer.  That dough really took off fast.  I also now wonder how rye does affect hydration.  I guess I won’t know until I try a couple more experiments.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I can understand the forum was more friendly then, because there were less posts and now there is so many members posting that it is hard to keep up with all the posts and experiments.

Norma,

I think I know what you mean but I don't want anybody to think that the forum is now less friendly than it was when I joined. In fact, I would say that the forum today is more friendly, mainly because we have more members and there is more of a camaraderie among them. What we now have is more like a group blog.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I think I know what you mean but I don't want anybody to think that the forum is now less friendly than it was when I joined. In fact, I would say that the forum today is more friendly, mainly because we have more members and there is more of a camaraderie among them. What we now have is more like a group blog.

Peter

Peter,

I agree with you that the forum is very friendly.  Everyone shares their knowledge which is great, but sometimes it does get hard to keep up with all the posts.  I think that is what you and I meant.  I have received very much help on this forum and all the members do contribute a lot.  This forum also reminds me a a group blog.

I will give you something more to think about, but you probably already know the answer. 

Norma

[norma427]

I reheated two slices of pizza that were made in Steve’s WFO last evening.  The one slice was a slice of the pizza I made with the added ADY sponge.  I never tried to reheat a pizza made in a WFO before, so I wanted to see how the slices would taste reheated.  The other slice was from one pie Steve had made the dough with Pizzeria flour and CY.  After tasting both slices, it now has me more curious if the dough made with all that ADY really has a sourdough taste, or if the taste of the crust comes from the rye sponge.  To me the taste of the crust did taste like a sourdough taste, compared to the slice of Steve’s made with CY.  The slice of Steve’s pie I reheated last evening was one of the lighter in color pizzas he made Friday evening.  I now wonder if that is possible to make a sourdough crust so fast.  Maybe I am confused by the taste of the rye in the dough, but the reheated slice did still taste much different than Steve’s slice.  Possibly it also could have been the amount of ADY (yeast) that made the crust taste different also.  Maybe this will remain a mystery.

I remember when I was first learning about making natural starters and how long it took them to become natural starters.  At reply 25 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10008.msg87642.html#msg87642 after Toby had helped me with the rye starter in those pictures, the starter almost looked like the starter made with big amount of starter I made Friday.  I am curious to know if any member has made a starter so fast before and if they did, how did they think the crust tasted after the bake.

I also wonder if the sponge I used was really a sponge, since equal amounts of water and flour were added.  It sounds to me more like a poolish. 

Pictures of reheated slices top and bottom.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I also wonder if the sponge I used was really a sponge, since equal amounts of water and flour were added.  It sounds to me more like a poolish. 

Norma,

The Alice Waters recipe calls for a preferment with equal volumes of rye flour and water, not equal weights, which a poolish requires. Based on the weights of the flour and water in the Waters preferment, I would say that the preferment is more like a biga than a sponge. I think the pronounced flavor you got is quite possibly due to the large amount of ADY that is used in the recipe, along with the flavor contribution of the rye flour. I estimate that the ADY comes to around 2.2% of the total flour blend.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The Alice Waters recipe calls for a preferment with equal volumes of rye flour and water, not equal weights, which a poolish requires. Based on the weights of the flour and water in the Waters preferment, I would say that the preferment is more like a biga than a sponge. I think the pronounced flavor you got is quite possibly due to the large amount of ADY that is used in the recipe, along with the flavor contribution of the rye flour. I estimate that the ADY comes to around 2.2% of the total flour blend.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that the Alice Waters recipe for a preferment was for equal volumes of rye flour and water.  I didn’t think about that.  I am used to measuring now in weights now.  You are probably right where the flavors of the crust came from.  I was just trying to figure that out.  When I try this experimental pizza again it is good to know how much you estimated the ADY was to the total flour blend.  That was a lot of ADY for one pizza.

Norma