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Offline Chet

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dough question
« on: January 16, 2010, 09:13:18 AM »


  I made this dough recipe http://www.finecooking.com/recipes/pizza-dough.aspx, about 18 hrs before I used it, came out well, but had 2 dough balls left on the counter after I removed them from the fridge and come to room temp, I punched them down and froze them in a plastic bag, will they rise again to make pizza or should I throw them away.


    Chet


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough question
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2010, 11:08:13 AM »
Chet,

Freezing pizza dough in general is not a good thing because of the damage that is done to the dough as the water expands and ruptures the cellular structure of the dough. The freezing also reduces the performance of the yeast, which is why commercial operators who make frozen dough balls increase the amount of yeast from the outset to compensate for the yeast damage. In your case, I would defrost the dough balls in the refrigerator for about a day before you plan to use them, then bring them out to room temperature for a while before using. I think you will get an edible product but maybe not quite as good as you would get with an unfrozen dough. It will also help in your case that your dough is fairly "young", not one that has been frozen for weeks or months. With about 0.83% IDY called for in the recipe you used, I think a loss of some fermentation power may not be fatal in your case. So, I wouldn't throw away the dough at this point.

If you decide to proceed, please let us know how things turn out. I, for one, would like to know just in case the question comes up again.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough question
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2010, 02:53:37 PM »
Chet,

Today I received my weekly email from Cook's Illustrated that included a report on freezing pizza dough. As I have reported before, my practice is to make the dough and then freeze it. My doughs are for the most part low in yeast (a fraction of your 0.83%) and can take a few days to rise in any noticeable fashion so I end up using them rather than freezing them at that point. However, as the CI report reproduced below states, pizza doughs that are frozen after rising do better than those that are frozen right after they have been made.

Published September 1, 2007. From Cook's Illustrated.

When should I freeze pizza dough? Before or after rising?

To answer this question, we made our basic pizza dough recipe—which makes enough for two pizza crusts—and froze it at two stages: immediately after mixing the dough and after allowing the dough to fully rise. After we shaped the dough into balls, we wrapped them in plastic wrap coated with nonstick cooking spray, placed them in zipper-lock bags, and froze them. A few days later, we thawed both doughs on the countertop, letting the unrisen dough rise for the two hours specified in the recipe. Next, we shaped both batches of dough-in addition to a freshly made batch and refrigerated dough from the supermarket-topped them with tomato sauce and mozzarella cheese, and baked them at 500 degrees for 10 minutes.

Tasted side by side, one of the frozen versions was nearly as good as the freshly made dough: The dough that had been frozen after rising was easy to shape (the gluten strands had had ample time to relax), crisp on the outside, chewy in the middle, and fresh-tasting. The dough that had been frozen before rising, on the other hand, was flatter and slightly tough. The freezing step had killed many of the yeast cells, resulting in a partially arrested rise and lackluster crust. Finally, the store-bought pizza dough received surprisingly good ratings from tasters.

If you have extra dough you'd like to keep around for later, be sure to let it rise fully before freezing. The best way to defrost dough is to let it sit on the countertop for a couple of hours or overnight in the refrigerator. (Thawing pizza dough in a microwave or low oven isn't recommended as it will dry the dough out.) And for last-minute pizza cravings, store-bought refrigerated dough is an entirely acceptable option.


Peter


Offline billneild

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Re: dough question
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2010, 03:36:28 PM »
Peter - I guess I'll have to try the "rise then freeze" method sometime for a comparison.  As to the store bought dough from Cooks Illustrated, they must have a better store than I do.  The most convenient store bought dough I can get is a pale comparison to my frozen dough in terms of taste and texture.

Offline uncleherm

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Re: dough question
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2011, 12:56:27 PM »
So after making the dough, do you let it rise on the counter for a few hours or stick in the refrigerator over night before freezing.  Also, do you knock it down before freezing or leave it all puffed up?  Thanks!

Offline pizza812

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Re: dough question
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2011, 08:39:40 AM »
So after making the dough, do you let it rise on the counter for a few hours or stick in the refrigerator over night before freezing.  Also, do you knock it down before freezing or leave it all puffed up?  Thanks!
This is a great forum.  I am asking that someone comment on this so we have it crystal clear....

1) Make dough balls
2) Let rise
3) Put ball in freezer (do we punch it back down into smaller ball here or leave alone?)
4) On pizza day, remove from freezer, put on counter, let it equilibrate to room temp and rise
5) Shape the dough into pizza size pie
6) Cook

Thanks!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough question
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2011, 10:11:49 AM »
pizza812,

I do not recommend that you freeze dough balls in the risen (fermented) state. That can cause the moisture in the dough to expand during freezing and cause damage to the yeast cells and gluten structure. Also, glutathione, an amino acid, can leach out of the damaged cells and have a softening effect on the dough and reduce its oven spring and limit the rise of the crust. 

The way that I would recommend that you freeze the risen dough balls is to first flatten them by hand or with a rolling pin to a thickness of about 1 1/2 inches. The flattened dough pieces can then be placed into the freezer on a wire screen or rack and frozen completely through—not just at the outer surfaces. Once this is achieved, the dough pieces can be put into airtight containers, as densely packed as possible (to reduce air space), and placed back into the freezer until ready for use.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough question
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2011, 10:27:23 AM »
4) On pizza day, remove from freezer, put on counter, let it equilibrate to room temp and rise

pizza812,

Technically, a dough ball, whether fresh or defrosted, should be usable at around 55 degrees F. I personally shoot for something in the 65-70 degrees F range. That usually takes about and hour or two of tempering at room temperature (depending on the time of year and the room temperature). The dough does not have to "equilibrate to room temperature". Tom Lehmann very often makes the distinction between tempering a dough ball at room temperature and tempering it to room temperature by capitalizing the word AT, as you can see at one of his PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9574&p=65729&hilit=#p65729.

Peter

Offline pizza812

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Re: dough question
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2011, 10:57:29 AM »
Thank you, that is good information.  Understand it now.  I'm just doing it at home, enjoy the time savings of making a bunch of dough on a weekend for use later on.  We eat pizza at least once a week at this house and I make 2 x 16" pizzas.  Tempering a frozen dough makes it easier for me, much more time savings.


Offline carl333

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Re: dough question
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2015, 05:17:32 PM »
Chet,

Today I received my weekly email from Cook's Illustrated that included a report on freezing pizza dough. As I have reported before, my practice is to make the dough and then freeze it. My doughs are for the most part low in yeast (a fraction of your 0.83%) and can take a few days to rise in any noticeable fashion so I end up using them rather than freezing them at that point. However, as the CI report reproduced below states, pizza doughs that are frozen after rising do better than those that are frozen right after they have been made.

Published September 1, 2007. From Cook's Illustrated.

When should I freeze pizza dough? Before or after rising?

To answer this question, we made our basic pizza dough recipe—which makes enough for two pizza crusts—and froze it at two stages: immediately after mixing the dough and after allowing the dough to fully rise. After we shaped the dough into balls, we wrapped them in plastic wrap coated with nonstick cooking spray, placed them in zipper-lock bags, and froze them. A few days later, we thawed both doughs on the countertop, letting the unrisen dough rise for the two hours specified in the recipe. Next, we shaped both batches of dough-in addition to a freshly made batch and refrigerated dough from the supermarket-topped them with tomato sauce and mozzarella cheese, and baked them at 500 degrees for 10 minutes.

Tasted side by side, one of the frozen versions was nearly as good as the freshly made dough: The dough that had been frozen after rising was easy to shape (the gluten strands had had ample time to relax), crisp on the outside, chewy in the middle, and fresh-tasting. The dough that had been frozen before rising, on the other hand, was flatter and slightly tough. The freezing step had killed many of the yeast cells, resulting in a partially arrested rise and lackluster crust. Finally, the store-bought pizza dough received surprisingly good ratings from tasters.

If you have extra dough you'd like to keep around for later, be sure to let it rise fully before freezing. The best way to defrost dough is to let it sit on the countertop for a couple of hours or overnight in the refrigerator. (Thawing pizza dough in a microwave or low oven isn't recommended as it will dry the dough out.) And for last-minute pizza cravings, store-bought refrigerated dough is an entirely acceptable option.


Peter

Peter or anyone? My dough is in the fridge, few days now cold ferment. Should I allow a rest on the counter for a couple of hours, reball and then freeze or should I remove it from the fridge, reball and then freeze?  Should I reball in either circumstance?

What is the best way to thaw and once thawed can I immediately proceed with opening? tks

Fazzari's recipe (cut and paste didn't carry over very well- makes a lot of dough!)

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (.5%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (2%):
Honey (2.%):
Total (168.5%):
Single Ball:   1235.62 g | 43.58 oz | 2.72 lbs
766.09 g | 27.02 oz | 1.69 lbs
6.18 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.05 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
24.71 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.43 tsp | 1.48 tbsp
24.71 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.49 tsp | 1.83 tbsp
24.71 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.53 tsp | 1.18 tbsp
2082.02 g | 73.44 oz | 4.59 lbs | TF = N/A
347 g | 12.24 oz | 0.76 lbs



« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 05:24:03 PM by carl333 »
Carl

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough question
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2015, 05:49:28 PM »
Carl,

Norma routinely engages in the practice of freezing fermented dough balls so she might be the better one to comment on what works best under the circumstances. However, I think I would just gently reform the fermented dough balls to reduce the gas content (if they are gassy) and then freeze them.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough question
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2015, 06:10:25 PM »
Carl,

Questions about freezing dough come up often on the forum. For a more recent thread on the subject, you might want to read this thread and the posts and threads linked therein:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29884.msg299011.html#msg299011

If, after reading the above referenced material, you still have unanswered questions, please come back for further comment or advice.

Peter

Offline carl333

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Re: dough question
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2015, 09:12:07 PM »
Carl,

Questions about freezing dough come up often on the forum. For a more recent thread on the subject, you might want to read this thread and the posts and threads linked therein:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29884.msg299011.html#msg299011

If, after reading the above referenced material, you still have unanswered questions, please come back for further comment or advice.

Peter

Peter, your friggin amazing. Tks for the link, an interesting read indeed.  Again so many variables to consider and I don't have a cryogenic freezer to boot.  ;D  I think I'll experiment a bit and freeze a couple of balls and see the results after a couple of weeks. But then, I'm thinking of dropping the balls if I don't get to them in time and start a new batch.

Changed my mind, I'll freeze, make a couple of pies and see the results. Wouldn't it be nice to make a months supply of dough balls, freeze the lot and have little or  no degradation in quality!

Maybe Norma will chime in.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 09:13:47 PM by carl333 »
Carl

Offline norma427

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Re: dough question
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2015, 07:03:58 AM »

Maybe Norma will chime in.


Carl,

I don't have problems with freezing dough balls, but then my freezer doesn't go through a defrost cycle.  I haven't frozen dough balls that have been fermented for a few days.  The ones I do freeze are one that have only fermented for about 1½ days.  They still make good pizzas, but I started defrosting the dough balls and incorporating them in new batches of dough. 

If you don't freeze the dough balls for too long you shouldn't have a problem.  What did your dough balls look like when you froze them?  If reballing before freezing I would think they would need a fairly long time for the gluten to be okay again once thawed.

If you don't want that many dough balls of John's (fazzari), why don't you use the expanded dough calculating tool and make less dough?

Norma

Offline carl333

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Re: dough question
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2015, 08:27:05 AM »
Carl,

I don't have problems with freezing dough balls, but then my freezer doesn't go through a defrost cycle.  I haven't frozen dough balls that have been fermented for a few days.  The ones I do freeze are one that have only fermented for about 1½ days.  They still make good pizzas, but I started defrosting the dough balls and incorporating them in new batches of dough. 

If you don't freeze the dough balls for too long you shouldn't have a problem.  What did your dough balls look like when you froze them?  If re-balling before freezing I would think they would need a fairly long time for the gluten to be okay again once thawed.

If you don't want that many dough balls of John's (fazzari), why don't you use the expanded dough calculating tool and make less dough?

Norma

Hi Norma, Tks for your reply. I have an up right freezer which is frost free. I had never thought about the defrost cycles in a standard fridge which was where I was going to put them initially. Definite temp swings in the freezer compartment during defrost cycles. Good point.  Last night, I took 2 Tupperware containers containing the cold fermented 3 day dough and just threw them in the freezer. No re-balling, no nothing. They had doubled in size.

So now faced with looking for the optimum procedure from defrosting to opening. Do I defrost on the counter or fridge, do I re-ball after the defrost and let it sit in the fridge for 12 hrs followed by a 2 hour counter rest b4 opening?

Yes, Fazarri's recipe was for several pizzas. The recipe called for a KA so I didn't want to reduce the recipe ingredients. The momentum and reaction of the dough while being thrown about in the mixer is different from a smaller qty to a larger one. I wanted to stay true to the recipe besides if I get very acceptable results with frozen but defrosted dough, I may incorporate this into my standard pizza making regime. It's at least a half hour of prep and set-up time for me to gather up, measure, mix, autolyse and then more time if I decide to incorporate a few stretch and folds. (not sure if that was necesaary in Fazzari's recipe though)
Carl

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: dough question
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2015, 09:41:23 AM »
When I was just beginning this journey and not prepping, thinking about and eating pizza at every conceivable moment   :D, I was freezing dough balls after fermentation. There was a point that was too long, and I wish I could remember what it was, but I'm sure there's a great variety of responses from different formulations. Anyway, hadn't frozen any dough for a year or so, but last week(ish) I found myself with more dough than I could bake before it overfermented in CF. The dough in question was the wonderful Scholl's poolish from sfpanky (if you're reading this, sfpanky, Thank you, thank you!!)   So, I simply removed it from its plastic tub..it had already flattened into more a disc than ball, after I believe 4 days of CF,; wrapped it in plastic wrap, then into a freezer bag and tossed it into freezer for about a week at most. It baked up beautifully; I'd call it as good as if it hadn't been frozen.

Offline carl333

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Re: dough question
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2015, 11:27:42 AM »
When I was just beginning this journey and not prepping, thinking about and eating pizza at every conceivable moment   :D, I was freezing dough balls after fermentation. There was a point that was too long, and I wish I could remember what it was, but I'm sure there's a great variety of responses from different formulations. Anyway, hadn't frozen any dough for a year or so, but last week(ish) I found myself with more dough than I could bake before it overfermented in CF. The dough in question was the wonderful Scholl's poolish from sfpanky (if you're reading this, sfpanky, Thank you, thank you!!)   So, I simply removed it from its plastic tub..it had already flattened into more a disc than ball, after I believe 4 days of CF,; wrapped it in plastic wrap, then into a freezer bag and tossed it into freezer for about a week at most. It baked up beautifully; I'd call it as good as if it hadn't been frozen.

Tks for your input, that's encouraging. Not sure if I can resurect those 2 bags of dough I bought at price Choppers several months ago. I don't think I'll chance it, at least on pizza. Now where did I put that garlic knot recipe? ;D 
Carl


Offline norma427

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Re: dough question
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2015, 09:09:51 PM »

Last night, I took 2 Tupperware containers containing the cold fermented 3 day dough and just threw them in the freezer. No re-balling, no nothing. They had doubled in size.

So now faced with looking for the optimum procedure from defrosting to opening. Do I defrost on the counter or fridge, do I re-ball after the defrost and let it sit in the fridge for 12 hrs followed by a 2 hour counter rest b4 opening?


Carl,

Thanks for telling me how much your dough balls had fermented before you froze them.  When I defrost dough balls I either use the time defrost on a microwave, and check them after each time defrost, let them in the fridge overnight, or let them at room temperature to defrost.  Any of those above methods work for me.  The dough balls should be left to warm up until completely defrosted.  I am not sure how much counter time they should have though.  I used unfrozen dough balls at market for awhile and what I generally did was let them warm up enough so they were easy to open. 

I don't think I ever did a reball after a defrosted dough ball.  Maye another member might be able to help you with that.

Norma

Offline carl333

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Re: dough question
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2015, 07:43:47 AM »
Carl,

Thanks for telling me how much your dough balls had fermented before you froze them.  When I defrost dough balls I either use the time defrost on a microwave, and check them after each time defrost, let them in the fridge overnight, or let them at room temperature to defrost.  Any of those above methods work for me.  The dough balls should be left to warm up until completely defrosted.  I am not sure how much counter time they should have though.  I used unfrozen dough balls at market for awhile and what I generally did was let them warm up enough so they were easy to open. 

I don't think I ever did a reball after a defrosted dough ball.  Maye another member might be able to help you with that.

Norma

Tks for your reply Norma. Looks like you've had a lot of experience handling frozen balls so I'll follow any one of your techniques. (Yikes)  Looks like anything just about works.
Carl

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Re: dough question
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2015, 09:19:14 AM »
Tks for your reply Norma. Looks like you've had a lot of experience handling frozen balls so I'll follow any one of your techniques. (Yikes)  Looks like anything just about works.

Carl,

Almost anything works, but just be careful if you are time defrosting dough balls in the microwave.  Set the time for defrost and check each time how the dough ball/balls feel.  You don't want to kill the yeast in the dough.

Norma

Offline carl333

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Re: dough question
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2015, 09:43:35 AM »
Carl,

Almost anything works, but just be careful if you are time defrosting dough balls in the microwave.  Set the time for defrost and check each time how the dough ball/balls feel.  You don't want to kill the yeast in the dough.

Norma

Tks Norma.
Carl

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Re: dough question
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2015, 09:51:41 AM »
Tks for your reply Norma. Looks like you've had a lot of experience handling frozen balls so I'll follow any one of your techniques. (Yikes)  Looks like anything just about works.
Carl,

In my experience, some frozen dough balls are better than others. For example, when I made frozen Mellow Mushroom clone dough balls, I found them easy to work with. However, because the hydration was on the relatively low side--around 52%, including the effects of the water in the molasses--they needed a good amount of time on the bench to soften up before opening up to form skins. And that time depended on the room temperature. Learning when to use the dough, and when the dough is ready, comes with experience. It is what Tony G calls "reading" the dough in his new book The Pizza Bible. In Norma's case, she excels at being able to "read" a dough, not only under normal circumstances but also when things go wrong and emergency action is called for. I think what has made Norma as good as she is is the fact that she has made so many different types of doughs and pizzas, not just one or two, and in so many different formats. The broader and wider the knowledge and experience, the better one becomes as a pizza maker. That is one of the reasons why Norma instinctively knows what to do in almost any given situation and can salvage a dough whereas others may fail because of lack of sufficient experience.

Peter

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Re: dough question
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2015, 10:26:42 AM »
Carl,

In my experience, some frozen dough balls are better than others. For example, when I made frozen Mellow Mushroom clone dough balls, I found them easy to work with. However, because the hydration was on the relatively low side--around 52%, including the effects of the water in the molasses--they needed a good amount of time on the bench to soften up before opening up to form skins. And that time depended on the room temperature. Learning when to use the dough, and when the dough is ready, comes with experience. It is what Tony G calls "reading" the dough in his new book The Pizza Bible. In Norma's case, she excels at being able to "read" a dough, not only under normal circumstances but also when things go wrong and emergency action is called for. I think what has made Norma as good as she is is the fact that she has made so many different types of doughs and pizzas, not just one or two, and in so many different formats. The broader and wider the knowledge and experience, the better one becomes as a pizza maker. That is one of the reasons why Norma instinctively knows what to do in almost any given situation and can salvage a dough whereas others may fail because of lack of sufficient experience.

Peter

Tks for you input Peter. After trying out a few pizza dough recipes, I think I'll settle down to 2 recipes. An emergency same day and a cold ferment recipe and apply some experimenting on the 2 including some Norma's freezing and thawing techniques and get that experience I am missing.

Is the Pizza Bible a good read in your opinion? Would it be good for me as a newbie? tks
Carl

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Re: dough question
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2015, 11:03:35 AM »
Is the Pizza Bible a good read in your opinion? Would it be good for me as a newbie? tks
Carl,

Yes, I think it is a good book to have in a pizza cookbook collection. I have only read part of the book to date but from scanning the book in general it seems to offer quite a bit of good information for the newbie even though the book will also appeal to more advanced home pizza makers and some professionals as well. However, newbies may have some difficulty finding many of the ingredients suggested in the book because they are not your normal supermarket types of ingredients available just about everywhere and at a reasonable cost. So a newbie will have to be highly motivated to go through all of the effort to put into practice many of the recipes covered in the book.

But, the above said, the knowledge and good practices imparted by the book, and the book's controlled scope (for home pizza makers and some professionals), should be a good place for newbies to start and proceed without being overwhelmed by all of the possible variations and permutations of pizza making. Of course, our forum is also a very good place to learn but the enormity and breadth of the forum's subject matter content and the countless variations of just about everything related to pizza making can be intimidating and difficult for newbies to navigate and sort things out. We no doubt lose a lot of members because of this but I suppose that goes with the territory. A free and open public forum and resource for all matters pizza related is not the easiest place for new members to learn things.

Peter



 

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