Author Topic: part science, part art? what's the secret?  (Read 1609 times)

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Offline PizzaVera

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part science, part art? what's the secret?
« on: January 21, 2010, 09:44:37 AM »
so really folks is it all just in the sauce?

the right flour, the right yeast, the mixing process?
oil salt, honey, sugar, neither? ..
sanmarzano?  canned, fresh tomatoes?, cook the sauce, dont cook the sauce
the cheese? CHEESE?? to much cheese, not enough cheese...
fresh herbs, dried herbs, the right amount of spices,
the dough! the flour, refridgerate, storing, temperature, preparing the dough
use after refrigerate or not, to pan or not to pan?
the oven?, temperature of the oven, wood, gas, electric, coal,
brand of the ovens, the pizziolo!?
pin or hand tossed?,

the old Italian guy down the block mixing it all together for a bit of a romanticized taste?!
or just the local joe down the street in the francise store?..

I have had %$# pizzas in my days, I have had so so pizzas, I have had amazing pizzas,
Ive been to Italy and had %$# pizzas, and also the best pizzas of my life...
 Ive had frozen pizzas which tasted ok ive had delivery pizzas which made me sick, Ive eaten pizzas in foreign countries, from ASIA - Australia, .. Ive seen some pizzas which are a disgrace to pizzas, Ive seen spaghetti on pizzas,
ive seen corn, chips, and all this other crap on pizzas,


why are some PIES just hyped up like DIFARRA or  Garibaldis is it just romantic ? or is the guy a scientist or aartist?

ive had  staff over the years come through my shop and Ive had all the stuff layed out for them to make the pie,
pretty much each persons pie is different some good, some bad,
ive told guys and showed guys how to make the dough, still comes out different everytime..
cutomers know when I have made it or one of my staff have made it..

some of my staff over the years were great, some just couldnt get it...
but , it's so simple isnt???
thousands of pizzerias in NYC, many are famous for a good pie. but so many are not! WHY??


anyway, something to think about...

and people think cooking is easy! hahahahaha



Offline PizzaPolice

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Re: part science, part art? what's the secret?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 10:19:52 AM »
..............  Deep breaths....  IN........   OUuuuuut........  There, now.   Feel better?

Offline jeff v

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Re: part science, part art? what's the secret?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 10:37:31 AM »
There is only one secret-
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k1uOqRb0HU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k1uOqRb0HU</a>


Substitute the word life at :05  w/ pizza and there you have it. Warning: There is one swear word in the vid linked.

Offline scott123

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Re: part science, part art? what's the secret?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 10:50:34 AM »
No

Yes
Yes
No.No.Yes.
No. No.
OMG YES!
Yes!
No. Yes
Yes
Yes

Yes

 ;D

Offline PizzaPolice

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Re: part science, part art? what's the secret?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 11:30:27 AM »
Oh great!  I'm trying to calm the waters and you invoke CURLY!  (Mitch: Hi Curly. Kill anyone today? Curly: Day ain't over yet.) 

My tag line proclaims the meeting of Art & Physics in a WFO.  Kinda like The UFC Octagon and Big John McCarthy keeping an eye on it.

In reality, it's simply Fanaticism pursuing Genius without crossing the threshold of Insanity.  

Fanaticism. You start with a mild interest which blooms into an all consuming passion.  Genius.  Your first of many AHA! moments which propel you deeper into the craft.  You become self-ordained as a pizza demigod because NOBODY can make pizza like you.  After all, that's what some people say.  Work harder.  Run faster!  Micromanage everything.  You can see it!  Almost there....Harder - Faster...  You think you're gaining on it.  Her name is Perfection.  She is a beautiful, intangible myth.  You find this out as you grab for her and you sail through her ethereal mist and you crash through the wall and over the edge.

Stay focused and critical.  Never take yourself too seriously.  Let your customers do that for you.


Your mantra for today is ...Oooooomm Flour, Water, Yeast & Salt....Ooooomm...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 01:38:04 PM by PizzaPolice »

Offline shango

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Re: part science, part art? what's the secret?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 11:58:27 AM »
Oh great!  

In reality, it's simply Fanaticism pursuing Genius without crossing the threshold of Insanity.  


Your mantra for today is ...Oooooomm Flour, Water, Yeast & Salt....Ooooomm...
love it!
pizza, pizza, pizza

Online norma427

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Re: part science, part art? what's the secret?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 12:29:38 PM »
Always different pizzas for different people.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYasZX0BGjw" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYasZX0BGjw</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrAUx32Jc7E" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrAUx32Jc7E</a>
   Part 1

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iWn9OdT-oc&amp;NR=1" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iWn9OdT-oc&amp;NR=1</a>
  Part 2

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3zTErpHgys&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3zTErpHgys&amp;feature=related</a>
  Part 1

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AanojgbDATI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AanojgbDATI</a>
   Part 2

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUUMB9UYA-Y" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUUMB9UYA-Y</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQd38yoND0g" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQd38yoND0g</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b46UuQ4G4TE&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b46UuQ4G4TE&amp;feature=related</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1maPZLe_zo&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1maPZLe_zo&amp;feature=related</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaOniG6Lzoc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaOniG6Lzoc</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqU_dLnNzFI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqU_dLnNzFI</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l501JVHI5hQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l501JVHI5hQ</a>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQpRycgIWuk (Embedding disabled, limit reached) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiwCgyo6Epg (Embedding disabled, limit reached)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kO0Q0pywLQ (Embedding disabled, limit reached)

and many more.  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 12:51:36 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Puzzolento

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Re: part science, part art? what's the secret?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 01:18:08 PM »
Most cheese at your supermarket is no good. Most tomato products at your supermarket are no good. Most of the battle is getting good cheese and good tomato products. The people at your supermarket won't tell you that, and neither will a lot of recipes put together by "experts" who can't cook their way out of a wet paper bag.

I absolutely love Costco shredded mozzarella, but I don't get good results with shredded cheese from the supermarket, and Gordon Food Service cheese isn't as good as Costco, for my purposes. I like Grande, but Costco is so good, I'm not willing to bother with the work of obtaining Grande.

The nonsense you'll read about special flour is a red herring. You can make great pizza with plain old Pillsbury All-Purpose, as long as you don't expect it to make a type of crust it won't make. I prefer supermarket all-purpose to 00 flour. In fact, I don't even like 00 flour. My second choice, for a different texture, is supermarket bread flour. Any brand. I also like to use bread flour and add a spoonful of gluten. Depends on what I feel like, but I always get a good crust.

You don't need a special oven. You don't need to make a ridiculous igloo from bricks inside your oven. Any 550-degree home oven with a stone and a screen will work great, absolutely every time.

You don't need special pans for Sicilian. I make incredible Sicilian on a cheap steel pan from Gordon Food Service.

Pizza isn't about skill. It's easy to make. You just have to have the right knowledge, and when you settle on a recipe, you should measure and write things down so you get repeatability. Anyone who tells you good cooks don't measure is crazy. Measuring will help you get consistent, and when you want to make the same recipe five years from now, if you've kept track of measurements, you won't have to start from scratch.

Funny thing: once you start making really good pizza, you'll realize the "good" pizzerias near you aren't as good as you thought. At least that's what happened to me. When I started critiquing my own pies, I became critical of restaurant pies, and I found out how flawed they were. Now I only buy pizza as a last resort. I live in a weak pizza town.

I only make New-York-style pizza, so nothing I say applies to yuppie gourmet pizza. I know nothing about reindeer-goat-cheese pizza.

Offline scott123

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Re: part science, part art? what's the secret?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2010, 08:09:27 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l501JVHI5hQ


I respect Tom quite a bit for the knowledge of dough he brings to the table, but, calling this 'NY Style' pizza...  I'm sorry, but that's a crime against humanity.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: part science, part art? what's the secret?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 12:25:34 PM »
I respect Tom quite a bit for the knowledge of dough he brings to the table, but, calling this 'NY Style' pizza...  I'm sorry, but that's a crime against humanity.


scott123,

LOL. I agree with you that the video does not accurately portray the NY style. However, if you were to have a discussion with Tom Lehmann about the NY style, it would be a lot different that what is shown in the video. He does know the types of ingredients used for that style and the use of deck ovens and high temperature ovens to make the NY style pizzas. But, for some reason, at the pizza shows that Tom participates in several times a year, they tend to use conveyor ovens. Also, since Tom worked with Lloyd Pans (pizzatools.com) to help develop perforated disks to create a hearth style bake, he has tended to promote those disks at the shows, using the conveyor ovens. Tom has also worked with the manufacturers of conveyor ovens, like Lincoln, as noted at http://www.lincolnfp.com/?sidebar=/xhtml/lin/us/en/sidebar/homepage&xhtml=xhtml/lin/us/en/casestudy/fbchallenge.html&xsl=casestudy.xsl. Maybe you have already seen reference to the hearth bake disks, but if not you can see and read more about them at http://www.lloydpans.com/C-1000033/Hearth+Bake+Disks.

Tom also seems to like to use a basic pizza for the pizza shows, usually comprising canned Italian or Italian style tomatoes (he often suggests fresh instead of canned), fresh mozzarella cheese, fresh herbs and grated cheese. As you can see from his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7429&p=50281&hilit=#p50281, his favorite pizza is very much like what is shown in the video. I guess if you are going to make a pizza, you might as well make one of your favorites.

Like it or not, there has been a major shift from deck ovens to conveyor ovens for most pizza styles. None of the big four pizza chains use deck ovens anymore and even some of the well known regional chains like Home Run Inn and Buddy's have gone from deck ovens to conveyor ovens. They might keep a few deck ovens in a few of their stores for public relations purposes but I suspect that is just to keep their "stories" alive about their humble beginnings decades ago. I believe that Sbarro is one of the few large chains that still uses deck ovens, and Papa Gino's in the Northeast is still using deck type ovens (rotating). But, conveyor ovens are now being used for most pizza styles, including Chicago deep-dish (albeit limited to date), American, cracker, pan style, and Sicilian. The importer of the Caputo flours once told me that he has gotten several inquiries for Caputo Neapolitan style dough formulations for conveyor applications. As noted above, there is a movement to marry hearth bake disks with conveyor ovens for the NY style. Increasingly, I see posts by mom and pop independent pizza operators at the PMQ Think Tank about how to make the NY style using conveyor ovens. Those posts typically lead to a discussion of the hearth bake disks and conveyor ovens.

Peter