Author Topic: Bulk rise vs Individual rise  (Read 1512 times)

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Offline BrickStoneOven

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Bulk rise vs Individual rise
« on: January 27, 2010, 03:58:53 PM »
I was wondering if there is a difference in doing a bulk rise than doing a individual ball rise. Is there any benefit from doing a bulk rise as to flavor, texture ex. I usually just ball up the dough and ferment. I wanted to try a bulk rise then the day I was going to use the dough I would ball and let rest for a couple hours. I was just wondering because isn't this what they do for Neapolitan pies, bulk rise then ball, rest and use. If so could someone go through a bulk rise procedure. Do I let it rise the whole time till I need to ball, punch down when doubled and let rise again or whatever else would have to be done. Didn't really see this topic talked about comparing the two, though I didn't really look that long. I think I might have to start my first experiment on the forum... ahh well lets see what people have to say.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 04:09:46 PM by BrickStoneOven »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Bulk rise vs Individual rise
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2010, 04:47:10 PM »
David,

Are you talking about bulk fermenting the dough at room temperature or in the cooler/refrigerator? And do you have a particular pizza style in mind, such as the Neapolitan style? If you are talking about cold fermentation, is there a particular reason why you are thinking of bulk fermentation, such as space limitations in your cooler/refrigerator?

Peter

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Bulk rise vs Individual rise
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2010, 09:05:56 PM »
I was thinking of doing the NY style I have been trying out. I wanted to do a bulk refrigerator ferment. Its not for the space because I have enough space. It is more to see what the difference would be, as in flavor wise if there is any. Why is Neapolitan dough fermented that way as to being individually balled then fermented? I was wondering, is it because of flavor does it give it a better crust texture? You definitely know more than me so please enlighten me.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Bulk rise vs Individual rise
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2010, 10:08:45 PM »
David,

It is generally advised that a dough that is to be cold fermented be divided after the bulk dough has been made rather than after cold fermentation. This is a matter that arose recently on the forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10116.msg88315.html#msg88315 and, at my suggestion to the poster (Tele Pizza), the matter was carried over to the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8555. As you will see from these threads, division after cold fermentation is almost always a matter of solving storage problems rather than some perceived benefit in terms of better crusts and pizzas. To further show you how muddled this subject can be, you might want to also read this PMQ thread:
http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=14180#14180.

With respect to the Neapolitan doughs and the way that the dough batch is divided after initial bulk fermentation, it is important to keep in mind that the Neapolitan doughs are fermented at room temperature. That makes the dough balls easier to shape and handle but there are other benefits from doing so. Even then, it is not entirely clear why the two-stage process is used even for such doughs. As you will note from Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7022.msg60428.html#msg60428, pizzanapoletana (Marco), who explained the two-stage process to the forum several years ago, has never explained the reasons for the two-stage process. However, Reply 7 and several posts after that reply attempt to explain some of the effects of the two-stage process. As you will see, the answers are not as easy and as simple as you might imagine or want.

Peter

Infoodel

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Re: Bulk rise vs Individual rise
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2010, 10:17:20 PM »
What is sometimes called 'mass effect' (larger mass favouring enzymatic activity/processes) is the theory that leaving dough in bulk ferment for longer yields a flavour benefit.
Toby
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 10:20:24 PM by Infoodel »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Bulk rise vs Individual rise
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2010, 10:35:32 PM »
Toby,

The "mass effect" is mentioneed and discussed a couple times at the thread referenced above at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=14180#14180.

Peter

Infoodel

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Re: Bulk rise vs Individual rise
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2010, 10:49:23 PM »
Toby,

The "mass effect" is mentioneed and discussed a couple times at the thread referenced above at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=14180#14180.

Peter

Thanks for that link Pete. The Didier Rosada quote in that thread is the info I was thinking about.
Right now I'm trying to initiate a stiff levain (from flour + water) which needs to be of a certain mass to get things going. In this case - it's not just about microorganisms but also enzyme activity.

Cheers

Toby

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Re: Bulk rise vs Individual rise
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2010, 11:07:19 PM »
Toby,

The mass effect has been discussed on the forum before, for example, at Reply 490 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg30150.html#msg30150. That reply also includes the link http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF04a.pdf#search=%22autolyse%20time%20period%22 to the Didier Rosada article that discussed mass effect.

Peter