Author Topic: A real deep dish video  (Read 37445 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BTB

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 980
  • Location: Tampa Bay, FL & S.W. Mich. areas
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #150 on: March 22, 2010, 11:14:07 AM »
The pizza that used the LTG dough looked good after baking, but had a hard time getting to brown more.  I pulled it out from the oven last after giving it a minute or two more.  The sides or rim of the LTG pizza had a hard time staying up along the side of the pan and consequently fell down more.  But the baked pizza looked almost as good as one from their restaurant.


Offline BTB

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 980
  • Location: Tampa Bay, FL & S.W. Mich. areas
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #151 on: March 22, 2010, 11:16:20 AM »
But while the baked pizza looked almost as good as one from a Malnati's restaurant, therein the similarity ended.  It didn't taste much like a Malnati's pizza.  The crust wasn't light, airy, crispy, tasty and flaky as all of us know a Malnati's crust to normally taste like.  The four of us were unanimous in agreeing that the home made crust formulation was not just a little better, but much, much better than that made with the LTG dough. 
 
I don't know why the LTG dough turned out the way it did.  I froze it immediately upon receiving it a couple of weeks earlier when it was delivered in a frozen state.  I pressed out the thawed out dough as normal in the pan and was careful not to do anything close to "overworking" the dough.  It baked up kind of flat, dull, with a little bit of tough or chewy character to it, which is not normal with a Malnati's pizza crust. 
 
I may have more to say about it after I collect my thoughts a bit.  But I just wanted to get out this report as I know some are interested in the findings regarding the new LTG dough.  For now, I would be in no hurry to repeat the use of the LTG dough in the near future.
 
                                                                                           --BTB

Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 613
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #152 on: March 22, 2010, 11:40:52 AM »
Thanks BTB for a rather detailed breakdown and excellent side-by-side comparison of the Lou to go Dough.  I think we all know that frozen dough does not react the same as a room temp or fridge risen dough so I don't think it's much of a shock that it didn't perform as well as yours.  I'm also not surprised by the taste of yours being better as I've thought for a long time that we're doing better with our homemade pies than they're doing at the restaurants.  Perhaps we use higher quality oil(s).  Something's up with that flour blend if it's the same they use in the restaurants (Peter indicated that Jim Freeland pretty much told him it is).  That light color continues to be a head scratcher for me.

Loo

Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #153 on: March 22, 2010, 12:06:46 PM »
BTB,

I, too, thank you for posting your results using the LTG dough.

Offhand, do you, or any other member for that matter, know of any pizza operator in the Chicago area that uses frozen dough for their deep-dish pizzas? It would seem to me that someone must be doing that, just as is the case with regular (flat) pizzas. It could well be that the places you frequented and liked were not users of frozen dough, at least to your knowledge.

The diminished crust coloration may be due to the fact that the only fermentation that a commercially frozen dough (flash frozen) gets is during defrosting and any subsequent tempering prior to being used. A frozen dough can take many hours to defrost, which suggests only a modest increase in fermentation during that time. The fermentation materially increases as the dough approaches room temperature, but even then it can be somewhat subdued if the room temperature is on the low side. The bottom line may be that there is a reduced level of conversion of starch to natural sugars to be available to contribute to final crust coloration, even with a small amount of sugar in the dough (which is very low in the LTG). Even added sugar (sucrose) takes many hours to be converted to simple sugars for the yeast to use as food and for crust coloration purposes (any residual sugar after the yeast has been fed). Most commercially frozen doughs usually do not last more than a couple of days in the refrigerator after defrosting because of the increased amounts of yeast used in frozen doughs and the tendency of the dough to overferment and become slack. However, I believe that there is a pretty good chance that using the dough after an extra day of refrigeration should produce better results all around, in terms of crust coloration and flavor because of the increased byproducts of fermentation. That would be my best advice to those who have LTG dough.

Peter

Offline BTB

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 980
  • Location: Tampa Bay, FL & S.W. Mich. areas
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #154 on: March 22, 2010, 12:59:05 PM »
I had thawed out the LTG dough for about 6 or 7 hours that I recall and thought it was good to go, but I do remember feeling some degree of coolness in the dough with my fingers.  Maybe it needed to be thawed out much longer.  It seemed to feel similar to doughs that I've handled in the past, maybe even a little moister or oily.  I think you maybe able to see that on one of the photo's of the dough.   Here are some pictures of the dough, one of the topside and the other flipped over. 

Edit  -  the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined in the future to do something along the lines that Peter is getting at.  I would  suggest to thaw the dough in the refrigerator the day before, take it out the day of use for a large number of hours (est. 7 to 10 hrs) until the dough is thoroughly warmed up to roughly room temperature (70-ish).  I recall a few years ago using cool dough that was just shortly taken from the refrigerator and not having it perform as expected.  Am not certain, but maybe I rushed use of this dough.  But again, given what great doughs and crusts we can make on our own, I am in no rush to again try the LTG dough.

                                                                                                     --BTB
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 09:13:33 PM by BTB »

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #155 on: March 22, 2010, 01:59:51 PM »
BTB,

To my eye, the LTG dough looks pretty far along the fermentation process, maybe even too far along. If so, that could account in part for the way the LTG pizza baked up.

I went back to http://www.loumalnatis.com/About/baking_reheating.aspx to review again the instructions given by Malnati's to defrost their LTG dough. All that those instructions say is "Thaw dough thoroughly." In practice, pizza operators who use frozen dough balls typically use one of two possible defrosting methods. The first method is to let the frozen dough balls defrost in the cooler for about a day. From that point on, they plan on using the dough a day or two later. The second method is to let the dough defrost at room temperature. However, that defrost time might be only a few hours. I discussed both of the above methods in greater detail in relation to the Lamonica's frozen dough balls, which are commercially prepared dough balls, at
Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9121.msg83041.html#msg83041. Although not discussed in that post, some people knead the dough ball after it has defrosted and then allow it to temper at room temperature for the required period of time. This technique is one that Tom Lehmann sometimes recommends, as discussed at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=20525#p20525.

Overfermented defrosted dough balls is quite common in the pizza business because of the action of the high yeast levels used in frozen dough balls, and pizza operators are very attentive to the different stages of their defrosted dough balls to be sure that they use the dough balls before they overferment. If they overferment, they will often use the overfermented dough balls to make breadsticks and the like. Others just discard the overfermented dough balls, usually because they have become overly slack and wet and hard to open up into skins. This would be much less an issue with a deep-dish skin because the dough is pressed into the deep-dish pan. However, any negative effects on the finished pizza crust will still be there. It's hard to say where your LTG pizza fit into the picture.

Peter

Offline Randy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2021
  • Age: 68
  • Pizza, a great Lycopene source
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #156 on: March 22, 2010, 06:03:28 PM »
Well done.  This is one of those post people will reference for some time to come.

The folks here at pizzamaking .com have far exceeded the restaurant quality in just about every case across the board from Chicago to NY style, to cracker and American I would think.

Offline DKM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1684
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Texas
  • Chicago - Now that's Pizza!
    • The Emperor.net
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #157 on: March 22, 2010, 07:26:03 PM »
BTB,

To my eye, the LTG dough looks pretty far along the fermentation process, maybe even too far along. If so, that could account in part for the way the LTG pizza baked up.

Based on the description of the out and looking at the dough in the picture, I would say it was over proofed.
I'm on too many of these boards

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #158 on: March 26, 2010, 09:19:26 PM »
In Reply 135 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg93419.html#msg93419, Loo indicated that he thought that Malnati's may be using the "a Gradito" tomatoes from San Benito. When I read that, I decided to call the Neil Jones Food Company, the company that cans the San Benito line of tomato products, to see if I could get some information out of them about the tomatoes that Malnati's uses. The customer service rep said that I would have to talk to someone in my area and referred me to a broker just outside of Dallas who brokers the San Benito products.

I ended up speaking with the fellow who runs that brokerage. He has been brokering tomatoes for over 20 years and seemed to know just about everything about canned tomatoes. I told him that I was assisting someone else who was trying to make a deep-dish pizza using tomatoes such as used by Malnati's. He was not familiar with Malnati's but I filled him in on the pertinent details. He said that it is very common for companies like Malnati's to have tomato products tailored to their specs, usually by inviting customers out to the cannery and giving them all kinds of samples and combinations to try out. As a result, a given product might differ from the standard line of tomato products. He said that if such was the case, he would most likely be prohibited from giving me any proprietary information on that product if he was able to find out what Malnati's is using. On the chance that Malnati's was using a standard San Benito product, I described the Malnati's tomatoes and offered to email him a link to the Malnati YouTube video at . That way he could see the tomatoes used to make the pizza in that video and be able to see the composition, texture, consistency and color of the tomatoes. He said that he thought he could tell me what the product was just by looking at it.

Today, I received a reply to my email. Based on the video, I was told that the tomatoes "look like" the a Gradito San Benito tomatoes and are "similar to" the Kitchen Style tomatoes (also a San Benito product). One of the differences is that the a Gradito tomatoes contain calcium chloride whereas the Kitchen Style tomatoes do not. The ingredients list I saw for the Malnati's pizzas do not list calcium chloride. I had earlier mentioned the a Gradito tomatoes during the course of our telephone discussion, and especially the use of heavy juice rather than puree. I was told that heavy juice has a Brix number of about 6-6.5. Above that, apparently you are in "light puree" territory. The a Gradito tomatoes are the fresh-pack variety, which confirms what scott r told us recently.

Before I forget, when I mentioned to the broker that Malnati's had about 30 outlets, he said that it was likely that a chain that size would have only one supplier. However, he acknowledged that there are back-up suppliers that could step in to help a chain the size of Malnati's.

Peter


Offline mrmojo1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 378
  • pizza sans frontiŤres
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #159 on: March 26, 2010, 11:57:48 PM »
Pete! you blow me away with your knowledge! you are soo the master!  thank you for all that you do! you have helped make a ton of people better pizza makers!
"My Doctor says I swallow a lot of aggression.  Along with a lot of pizzas!!"

Offline DKM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1684
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Texas
  • Chicago - Now that's Pizza!
    • The Emperor.net
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #160 on: March 27, 2010, 08:51:22 AM »
I canít find a clip (yet) but I know in the past Marc Malnati has talked about going out to oversee the canning operation.  It is possible they use a smaller supplier to maintain control over the process.  They might even be part owner in the operation.
I'm on too many of these boards

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #161 on: March 27, 2010, 11:06:03 AM »
Pete! you blow me away with your knowledge! you are soo the master!  thank you for all that you do! you have helped make a ton of people better pizza makers!

mrmojo1,

Thank you very much but on the matter of tomatoes I know just enough to be dangerous. I am sure that if scott r conducted a similar discussion with the broker I spoke with, he would have come away with much more information than I did. Interestingly, however, in all my discussions over the years with professionals in the pizza field I have never had one treat me as other than another professional. You just have to know a few buzz words and drop them into your conversation somewhere along the way.

Peter

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #162 on: March 27, 2010, 11:20:48 AM »
I canít find a clip (yet) but I know in the past Marc Malnati has talked about going out to oversee the canning operation.

DKM,

I seem to recall what you say from a segment that I saw on cable several years ago. I think it was the same segment in which Mark Malnati also talked about the Lake Michigan water and its criticality to the pizzas made at Malnati's, as I noted in Reply 62 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16.msg4964/topicseen.html#msg4964. More recently, when I talked with the corporate chef at Malnati's, he also told me that they periodically go out to the grower and actually go out to the site where the tomatoes are grown. When I checked the Malnati website this morning, I see that the tomatoes and Lake Michigan water are still discussed there, at http://www.loumalnatis.com/About/about-pizza.aspx. Are we now going to have to look for a source of Lake Michigan water, or try to chemically replicate it somehow  :-D?

Peter

Offline DKM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1684
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Texas
  • Chicago - Now that's Pizza!
    • The Emperor.net
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #163 on: March 27, 2010, 11:44:16 AM »
It's talked about in Travel Network's Pizza Wars.  I have the complete video, but can't find a clip.
I'm on too many of these boards

Offline vcb

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
  • Location: Chicago
    • Real Deep Dish
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #164 on: March 27, 2010, 11:55:21 AM »
DKM,

I seem to recall what you say from a segment that I saw on cable several years ago. I think it was the same segment in which Mark Malnati also talked about the Lake Michigan water and its criticality to the pizzas made at Malnati's, as I noted in Reply 62 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16.msg4964/topicseen.html#msg4964. More recently, when I talked with the corporate chef at Malnati's, he also told me that they periodically go out to the grower and actually go out to the site where the tomatoes are grown. When I checked the Malnati website this morning, I see that the tomatoes and Lake Michigan water are still discussed there, at http://www.loumalnatis.com/About/about-pizza.aspx. Are we now going to have to look for a source of Lake Michigan water, or try to chemically replicate it somehow  :-D?

Peter

It is my humble opinion that all the 'water' talk that pizza-makers do in Chicago, and especially New York, is complete and utter BS. It's the food industry's version of Professional Wrestling drama (Our water is better than your water, so you can't possibly make better pizza without it! - and also I'm gonna bodyslam you from the top rope!). I just can't believe that the small amount of trace minerals (and other stuff) could possibly make that much of a difference. Besides that, can you possibly believe that back in the 1940's that the pollution content of the lake water would be the same as it is today?

For the record, I am using Lake Michigan water that is run through an in-line Brita water filter.

p.s. - Yes, I am fully aware that some insane pizza restaurant owners do import their water from New York to make New York Style pizza. It's got to be psychological. You claim you are using New York water, therefore your pizza will taste like the stuff that Lombardi's serves.

p.p.s. - backed up by a Slice.com article about testing mineral content in water:
http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/01/does-nyc-water-make-a-difference-in-pizza-quality.html
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 12:16:19 PM by vcb »
-- Ed Heller -aka- VCBurger -- Real Deep Dish - Deep Dish 101
http://www.realdeepdish.com/
http://facebook.com/realdeepdish/
http://virtualcheeseblogger.com/

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #165 on: March 27, 2010, 01:02:46 PM »
It's perhaps not worth debating the water issue given that there are many things that have been done to the Lake Michigan water supply, both good and bad, over the years. One member described the situation with the Lake Michigan water supply as he recalled it at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,291.msg57974.html#msg57974. For all we know, Malnati's uses commercial water filtration/processing systems in its stores.

Peter

Offline TMTM

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #166 on: March 27, 2010, 01:04:49 PM »
You might be right it has a placebo effect... someone should test it... the next time your brother down South tells you to bring some city water with you... just fill up a empty container at your hotel before heading to his house and tell him its from Chicago or NY.. see if he still feels it made a better pizza.. also bring the real city water just in case :)


Offline garyd

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 113
  • Location: Wheat Ridge
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #167 on: March 27, 2010, 01:52:52 PM »
You might be right it has a placebo effect... someone should test it... the next time your brother down South tells you to bring some city water with you... just fill up a empty container at your hotel before heading to his house and tell him its from Chicago or NY.. see if he still feels it made a better pizza.. also bring the real city water just in case :)


I saw a test done on one of the cooking shows on cable last year where they made New York pizzas in a New York pizzeria, making some with NYC tap water and some with other sources of tap water. The tasters concluded that the pizzas made with NYC tap water were indeed much better and tasted like the classic NY style pizza. They concluded that it is indeed the water that sets NY pizza apart from similar pizzas made in other parts of the country.

There is a VPN certified pizzeria here in Denver that advertises that they use NYC water for their pizzas!

Offline dms

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 168
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #168 on: March 27, 2010, 02:38:59 PM »
It is my humble opinion that all the 'water' talk that pizza-makers do in Chicago, and especially New York, is complete and utter BS. It's the food industry's version of Professional Wrestling drama (Our water is better than your water, so you can't possibly make better pizza without it! - and also I'm gonna bodyslam you from the top rope!). I just can't believe that the small amount of trace minerals (and other stuff) could possibly make that much of a difference.

It certainly makes that big a difference in beer.  IN some cases, it's the absence of various minerals that cause problems, but yeast are quite sensitive to mineral concentrations.  so are lots of other cooking processes.  Chicago's water is relatively hard with substantial amounts of CaCO3, but very little (essentially zero) iron.  NY city has lower CaCO3, but very high iron content.  There are no doubt other substantial differences as well, but I'm not going to dig up the reports. 

Offline donnamarie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 4
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #169 on: August 31, 2010, 11:26:39 AM »
So is Comment 148 the best recipe for a Lou's pizza?  If not could you point to the one that you guys agree is the best.  For me, it's all about the crust.

I made some attempts a few years ago following some of the recipes here and had mixed success.

Offline FLAVORMAN

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 78
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #170 on: August 31, 2010, 01:03:27 PM »
No. 148 is one of the recipes that is on the money for 9 inch...I would encourage you to use 15-20% semolina flour of the total flour used..good luck and go for a 14 incher so you have much more to eat....

Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 613
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #171 on: August 31, 2010, 03:24:22 PM »
With all respect to the work of BTB, if you want what the video is telling you, go with reply 50.   :chef:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg89174.html#msg89174
Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Offline donnamarie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 4
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #172 on: August 31, 2010, 03:37:04 PM »
Thanks loo!

I found the great DD Conversion tool.  Now I'm going to go look for your technique in mixing the ingredients, rise time, kneading etc.  I have a KA and I'm thinking 2 minutes on low speed for the knead.  I know I don't want to overknead.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 03:51:14 PM by donnamarie »

Offline DKM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1684
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Texas
  • Chicago - Now that's Pizza!
    • The Emperor.net
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #173 on: August 31, 2010, 08:02:12 PM »
I'm rather like this one

100% AP Flour
48% Water
15% Corn Oil
5% Olive Oil
0.5% ADY
I'm on too many of these boards

Offline DKM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1684
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Texas
  • Chicago - Now that's Pizza!
    • The Emperor.net
Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #174 on: August 31, 2010, 08:07:37 PM »
Thanks loo!

I have a KA and I'm thinking 2 minutes on low speed for the knead.  I know I don't want to overknead.

I mix somewhere around a minute.  I think I have the entire mixing time on the video my son did.
I'm on too many of these boards