A real deep dish video

[pizzard]

UPS just delivered my Lou-To-Go-Dough. 

It looks like they have the nutrition facts on the label...knowing the amount of carbs, fat and sodium should make it fairly easy to calculate the formula. 

[Pete-zza]

For those who are interested, the nutrition data for Malnati's pizza products can be seen at http://www.tastesofchicago.com/downloads/Nutritional%20info.pdf and also at http://www.loumalnatis.com/About/Pizza%20Nutritionals.aspx. These documents do not include the LouToGo Dough, at least not yet.

Peter

[BTB]

The label on the 16 oz. Lou-To-Go-Dough container gives the following for Nutritional Data:
"Serving size (57 g), servings per container 8, Amount per serving (DV%), Calories 190, From Fat 70, Total Fat 8 g (13%), Saturated Fat 1 g (6%), Trans Fat 0 g, Cholesterol 0 mg, Sodium 0 mg, Total Carbohydrate 25 g (8%), Dietary Fiber 1 g (3%), Sugars 0 g, Protein 3 g, Vitamin A (0%), Vitamin C (0%), Calcium (5%), Iron (10%), Percent DV based on a 2,000 calorie daily diet."
 
I would have no idea what this means.  It is a result of government regulations made to help people better understand nutritional information.  I bet less than .00001 % of the population understand much from this description.

To anyone interested, I did a posting regarding my cooking of one of the Malnati's frozen pizzas last night at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg92021.html#msg92021 . 

                                                                                                    --BTB

[Pete-zza]

BTB,

It's all pretty straightforward, as you will see when you read http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=563f0b6235da3f4c7912a64cbceec305&rgn=div8&view=text&node=21:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.6&idno=21.

As you will note from the above document, sodium can be specified at a zero value in the labeling of Nutrition Data when it is less than 5 milligrams per serving, and sugar can be specified at a zero value when it is less than 0.5 gram per serving. If we assume a worst-case analysis for sodium of, say, 4.99 milligrams sodium per serving, that comes to 8 x 4.99 = 39.92 milligrams of sodium. That is about 39.92/2400 = 0.0166333 teaspoon of salt. As you will note from http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/nutritional-analysis-bakery-flour.html, there is also some naturally occurring sodium in flours. There is also some naturally occurring sodium in olive oil but in the amount likely to be used in the LouToGo Dough, it is negligible. Since I used a worst-case analysis on the sodium, I would have to conclude that there is almost no salt in the LouToGo Dough. However, I will allow for the fact that I could be wrong on my analysis given the complexity of the FDA code.

In the case of sugar, if we assume a worst-case analysis of 0.49 grams per serving, that comes to 8 x 0.49 = 3.92 grams. That is 3.92/28.35 = 0.13827126 ounces, or about 0.98 teaspoons. As noted in the abovereferenced King Arthur document, there is also a fair amount of natural sugar in flour. From what I have read in FDA documents, the sugar on nutrition labels is supposed to contain all forms of sugars, including naturally-occurring ones (including glucose, fructose, lactose, sucrose, etc.). So, I would guess that the sugar added to the LouToGo Dough is perhaps a maximum of about 5/8 teaspoon, and that it is sucrose, or ordinary table sugar. Again, it could be less since I used a worst-case analysis for the sugar.

It will be interesting to get the crust taste-test feedback from the members who have purchased the LouToGo Dough to see if they were able to detect the flavors of salt and sugar.

The FDA has been cracking down recently on processed food providers for incorrect or sloppy labeling of Nutrition Data, so who knows how accurate the Nutrition Data is for the LouToGo Dough or for any of the other Malnati's pizza products for that matter.

Peter

[pizzard]

The label on the 16 oz. Lou-To-Go-Dough container gives the following for Nutritional Data:
"Serving size (57 g), servings per container 8, Amount per serving (DV%), Calories 190, From Fat 70, Total Fat 8 g (13%), Saturated Fat 1 g (6%), Trans Fat 0 g, Cholesterol 0 mg, Sodium 0 mg, Total Carbohydrate 25 g (8%), Dietary Fiber 1 g (3%), Sugars 0 g, Protein 3 g, Vitamin A (0%), Vitamin C (0%), Calcium (5%), Iron (10%), Percent DV based on a 2,000 calorie daily diet."
 
I would have no idea what this means.  It is a result of government regulations made to help people better understand nutritional information.  I bet less than .00001 % of the population understand much from this description.

To anyone interested, I did a posting regarding my cooking of one of the Malnati's frozen pizzas last night at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg92021.html#msg92021 . 

                                                                                                    --BTB

What this tells me is that you have a total of 456 grams of product.

There is no added sodium, or sugar.
Total carbohydrate is 200 grams (from flour)
Total protein is 24 grams (from flour)
Total fat is 64 grams (corn/olive oil)

That leaves 168 grams of weight, which is likely from water, since there aren't any other ingredients to consider...except yeast, which would be very small.

The dough formulation should look something like this...

oil = 2.25 oz.
flour = 1.79 cups
water = 5.93 oz.
yeast = ??  I don't have a feel for this, but defer to what has worked previously.

Running the above against a calorie conversion...its pretty close:

carbohydrates = 200 grams x 4 kcals/gram = 800 kcals
protein = 24 grams x 4 kcals/gram = 96 kcals
fat = 64 grams x 9 kcals/gram = 576 kcals

Total 1472 kcals/8 servings = 184 kcals...the label states 190 kcals/serving, so that's pretty close.  Rounding the formulation up, or down slightly could account for these variations.

Sorry if I'm completely off on this, I sort of did it on the fly, but when I saw the nutrition facts, I figured you could back out the information provided.  Always looking for clues.   As a dietitian I teach people how to interpret this information, so I guess that makes me part of the .00001% of the population.   

One last thought...A high gluten flour would likely have a bit more protein per serving.  My feeling is that Malnati's uses cake flour.  In at least two videos featuring Marc Malnati, he talks about how you don't bounce his dough around...its delicate.  Perhaps this is why, but it would also explain the light color of dough/crust.

[Pete-zza]

pizzard,

From Reply 85 in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg91598.html#msg91598, the ingredients list for the LouToGo Dough is given as:

INGREDIENTS:  Pizza Flour, Water (tap, municipal), Corn Oil, Olive Oil, Yeast, Salt, Sugar.

Is it that no salt and sugar are added to the dough as you say or is it that they are used but the quantities fall below the radar screen and do not have to be specified in the Nutrition Data? Also, salt and sodium are not identical. If salt is listed, must one have used salt? In addition to carbohydrates (which I assume covers starch, sugar and fiber), there is also moisture in the flour (usually around 14%). Would that have to be taken into account as part of the total water, even though the ingredients list mentions only municipal tap water?

Peter

[loowaters]

I was feeling like playing with this a bit today so I made some dough around noon and after a punch down at 2:00p was ready to make a pie at 4:00p.  I followed the formula from here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg89174.html#msg89174 with water that temped at an even 100*.  It was kneaded on "Mix" speed for 3 mins. in my KA mixer with "C" dough hook.  12" with a TF = .121 or 550g total.  The pie was 1/2 sausage, 1/2 pepperoni.  It cooked on the middle rack of my electric oven (element exposed), at 500* for 20 mins.  No pics, they're all kinda looking the same.

This turned out really good!  5:1 corn oil to olive oil ratio is much better than the 19:1 ratio.  There's also another thing that I noted in the other video that DKM posted from Spike TV's Food Dude http://ow.ly/1bDYi regarding cooking time and timing of removal from the oven.  The Food Dude says 30 mins. at 600* but I don't think they run those ovens that hot.  A 9" would be pretty well scorched at that temp for that amount of time.  Marc said "cook it 'til it gets nice and crispy and the dough starts coming off the side of the pan."  I followed that advice and that led to a shorter cook than I'm used to but gave me great flavor as there was no over drying of the crust.  Of course I'm leery of the sausage not cooking through at 500* for 20 mins. but it I rolled the dice on it and it seemed to cook through just fine.  I guess I'll know more on that front a little later.  In regards to that, I ask this question, anyone know what temp they would store that sausage on the prep table?  My fridge is quite cold and usually my sausage gets about 5 mins. out of the fridge before going on the pie and into the oven.  If my fridge is 36* () and their prep table can keep the sausage at 45* (is that OK by Health Dept. standards?), they have a little head start on me with the sausage reaching an acceptable temp. 

Also, anyone else thinking that, at least with those 9" pans, their pans are only 1 1/2" deep?  Those prepped pies are piled to the rim and no matter how much I put on one of mine I don't build it that high.  Just a thought.

Loo

[pizzard]

pizzard,

From Reply 85 in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg91598.html#msg91598, the ingredients list for the LouToGo Dough is given as:

INGREDIENTS:  Pizza Flour, Water (tap, municipal), Corn Oil, Olive Oil, Yeast, Salt, Sugar.

Is it that no salt and sugar are added to the dough as you say or is it that they are used but the quantities fall below the radar screen and do not have to be specified in the Nutrition Data? Also, salt and sodium are not identical. If salt is listed, must one have used salt? In addition to carbohydrates (which I assume covers starch, sugar and fiber), there is also moisture in the flour (usually around 14%). Would that have to be taken into account as part of the total water, even though the ingredients list mentions only municipal tap water?

Peter

Just basing everything on calorie content, I believe the oil, and flour measurements are correct.  However, as I found this morning in doing a test run...the water quantity is too high, (especially for cake flour) and needs tweaking.  I did not factor in any flour hydration.  If using all-purpose flour, then water is closer to 5 oz., and 4 oz. for cake flour (Swans Down).

Regarding salt, and sugar.  A teaspoon of salt contains 2000 mg of sodium/8 servings would be about 250 mg of sodium per serving.  This would warrant nutrition labeling, so this is a bit perplexing, especially since a frozen Lou's pizza does not list salt/sugar in the ingredients for the crust.  Perhaps both fall below labeling requirements, and are added for reasons other than flavor (preservative and/or color)??

[BTB]

 My feeling is that Malnati's uses cake flour. . .  Perhaps this is why, but it would also explain the light color of dough/crust.

I have to reluctantly -- well not so reluctantly -- but respectfully disagree with that part because of my previous experiments with using cake flour with Chicago Style deep dish pizza.  It results in so soft a pizza crust that it falls apart like a deck of cards when trying to extract the whole uncut pizza from the deep dish pan.  None of the pizza crusts from Lou Malnati's, Gino East, Uno's/Due's, Pizano's, etc. falls apart in such a manner in my experience or had such properties or soft dough characteristics.  They are generally solid, crispy thoughout from rim to rim.  My recent baking of a Lou Malnati's frozen pizza -- reported elsewhere -- had the pizza slide out in one nice solid crisp flat disc.  That had never, never happened to my home made deep dish pizzas with the use of cake flour.  I am so turned off on the use of cake flour that I threw the box of it out and cannot see it's utility for pizzamaking.  Sorry if I sound . . . eh . . . frustrated.

Further, from the gazillion times I've eaten at Malnati's pizzerias, usually, but not always, the only place you will find such "light color of dough/crust" is in their advertisements and videos.  They are normally much darker, as many of my photos on this website have shown.

But in any event, your great thoughts and comments in pursuit of our deep dish crust formulation is invaluable, so please don't get defensive on me.  Often written email expressions sound totally different from what was intended.

                                                                                                                       --BTB
                                                                                                               

[pizzard]

I have to reluctantly -- well not so reluctantly -- but respectfully disagree with that part because of my previous experiments with using cake flour with Chicago Style deep dish pizza.  It results in so soft a pizza crust that it falls apart like a deck of cards when trying to extract the whole uncut pizza from the deep dish pan.  None of the pizza crusts from Lou Malnati's, Gino East, Uno's/Due's, Pizano's, etc. falls apart in such a manner in my experience or had such properties or soft dough characteristics.  They are generally solid, crispy thoughout from rim to rim.  My recent baking of a Lou Malnati's frozen pizza -- reported elsewhere -- had the pizza slide out in one nice solid crisp flat disc.  That had never, never happened to my home made deep dish pizzas with the use of cake flour.  I am so turned off on the use of cake flour that I threw the box of it out and cannot see it's utility for pizzamaking.  Sorry if I sound . . . eh . . . frustrated.

Further, from the gazillion times I've eaten at Malnati's pizzerias, usually, but not always, the only place you will find such "light color of dough/crust" is in their advertisements and videos.  They are normally much darker, as many of my photos on this website have shown.

But in any event, your great thoughts and comments in pursuit of our deep dish crust formulation is invaluable, so please don't get defensive on me.  Often written email expressions sound totally different from what was intended.

                                                                                                                       --BTB
                                                                                                               

No offense taken...I knew that idea probably wouldn't go over too well, but I have not had that experience with it falling apart, and sort of wanted to revisit the issue.  Regardless, I made two batches of dough this morning in trying sort through the hydration issue.  One with all-purpose, the other with cake flour.  I'll cook these apples to apples, and try and photograph, as well. 

PS  I tried the rice flour mentioned elsewhere on the board, and threw that flour out, so I totally get your frustration when things don't go well in the kitchen.   

[dms]

What this tells me is that you have a total of 456 grams of product.

it tells me it's written by someone who doesn't know how to write food labels, because the serving size isn't a legal value.  (By the regulation that covers this, the serving size for pizza crust is 55 g.  Any other serving size is contrary to the FDA's rules.) 

I really doubt they're using cake flour.  10% protein AP flour is much more likely. 

[Randy]

I tried too making a deep dish with WhiteLily, which is very low protein like cake flour.  Same results.  Not so good.

Randy

[Pete-zza]

(By the regulation that covers this, the serving size for pizza crust is 55 g.  Any other serving size is contrary to the FDA's rules.) 

dms,

Maybe I am misreading the requirements for pizza crusts (55 grams serving size), at http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfCFR/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=101.12 (footnote 2), but does the 55-gram serving size apply to ready-to-serve or almost-ready-to-serve products, which would apply to a pizza crust but not to pizza dough?

I also discovered from another FDA document on ingredients lists that if sugar is listed as an ingredient, it means sucrose (table sugar).

I am still puzzled that salt and sugar are listed in the ingredients list, which should mean they are actually added to the dough, but the Nutrition Facts suggest that both ingredients are used in such small quantities that they can be listed at 0 values.

Peter

[pizzard]

Cake flour vs. All-Purpose flour experiment complete:

Here are my conclusions:

Both held up well during the baking process, but the real test is in the crunch, and taste.  It wasn't until I did this side by side did I really notice the difference, and the winner is....all-purpose   ...but you all knew that right?   The cake flour wasn't bad...a bit soft to the bite, but the all-purpose was great, and seemed to pick up the flavor of fermentation much better.  A nice crunch all the way through too... very biscuity.

Not quite apples to apples though.  I used 6 in 1 tomatoes on the all-purpose and crushed whole tomatoes on the cake flour pizza.  Both could have used a bit more cheese, but this was more of an experiment than a meal.

I tried twice to upload photos, but I am having a difficult time resizing in iphoto.  If anyone has a suggestion I can still post them, but I'm not so great at this.  If I custom crop them...what should the measurement be?

One last thing...I tried a new type of yeast.  Rapunzel organic active dry yeast.  The fermented flavor it produced was wonderful.  I know that Fleischmans has a new yeast on the market for just pizza...I'm wondering what the difference is to make it pizza specific.

In the future for all pizzas I will be sticking to all-purpose flour.  This should clear out my cupboard considerably...no more cake flour, bread flour, or malted barley...I'll just keep it simple.  Now, onto to spaghetti and meatballs. 

Caio!

Mary

[Pete-zza]

Mary,

Did you use any salt or sugar and, if not, did you feel that either should have been used? And what amount of yeast did you use? I assume you did not make a frozen dough and then defrosted it. Usually the yeast quantity is increased substantially for frozen doughs.

I spent a fair amount of time over at the nutritiondata.com website last night and, after checking through many types of white flour with different protein contents, I came to the conclusion, as did dms, that the all-purpose flour has the best fit, specifically, the one at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4607.msg38909.html#msg38909. Did you note the amount of all-purpose flour you used?

I also analyzed the corn oil and olive oil Nutrition Facts at http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/fats-and-oils/7727/2 and came up with pretty much the same amount of oil (total) that you did (I got 2.29 ounces of oil). 

Unless I further decipher the nutrition data, I plan to wait until BTB or one of the other members who bought the LouToGo Dough gives us a verdict/feedback on that product.

Peter

[pizzard]

For the all-purpose recipe I used the following formula:

1.8 cups of flour (I don't have a gram weight scale.) This was based on the amount of carbohydrate calories in the Lou to Go product.
2 ounces corn oil
.25 ounces olive oil (1/2 tablespoon)
5 ounces of water
1/2 tsp. of yeast

This made a really nice pliable dough, which I let rise for 24 hours (room temp).  This brings up another thought...many pizzerias say they make their dough fresh daily, which may, or may not mean they use the dough the same day.  It is possible they let it ferment/proof over a day, or two to establish flavor.

I did not use salt, or sugar, and neither were missed.  I cooked both in non-stick cake pans, which is something I don't usually do, but wanted to do a side by side comparison using the same cookware.  They were cooked side by side in the oven also.

One last point I would like to bring up again about the corn oil, and the olive oil.  A Lous to Go pizza does not list olive oil in the crust for their sausage pizza, but they do list olive oil for their cheese pizza.  Go figure. 


I'll give photos another shot...

[Pete-zza]

From what I have read on this thread and the various Malnati websites and from what I have seen in the various videos on this topic, there appear to be several examples of either sloppiness or discrepancies. Here are some that I have noted.

1. It is not entirely clear whether the LouToGo Dough is intended to be exactly the same as the regular deep-dish dough that Malnati's uses in its own stores. If one were to take at face value what is stated about the LouToGo Dough at the Malnati website at http://www.tastesofchicago.com/category/Lou_Malnatis_Pizza and also in the LouToGo Dough video at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeMSGO9zYEs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeMSGO9zYEs</a>

, one would have to conclude that the two doughs are identical. However, it is possible that the Malnatis may have taken some license in this regard or they don't regard any differences as being material. As noted previously, there appear to be discrepancies between the ingredients list for the LouToGo Dough and the corresponding Nutrition Facts with respect to sodium (salt) and sugar. To get clarification on this issue, this morning I sent an email via the basic Malnati website and asked for an explanation as to the apparent discrepancy and pointing out some of the FDA regulations on the matter. I am hoping that they think that I actually know something about this subject matter. It will be interesting to see if I get a reply. I might even call the telephone number given at the Malnati's website to probe the matter further.

2. As Mary (pizzard) noted, the oils for the deep-dish cheese and sausage pizzas are not the same. I'd like to think that this is just sloppiness. I once spotted a similar discrepancy in ingredients lists sent to me by Giordano's and, when I pointed it out to Giordano's, they said it was in fact an oversight.

3. Both the original video that DKM posted and the instructions given by Malnati's on the LouToGo Dough at http://www.loumalnatis.com/About/baking_reheating.aspx specify that Parmesan cheese be used. Maybe Malnati's has gone to Parmesan cheese, but my recollection is that their frozen pizzas specify Romano cheese. Since Mary apparently has the boxes with the labeling information, maybe she can shed some light on what the frozen pizzas currently use as grated cheese.

4. As noted previously by BTB, there seems to be a discrepancy in the weights/depths of frozen deep-dish pizzas as compared with the ones bought in Malnati stores. Maybe that is why the instructions given at http://www.loumalnatis.com/About/baking_reheating.aspx call for the dough to be pulled up the sides of the pan by 1" rather than what appears to be about 1 1/2" in the various videos I have seen. I also notice that the aforementioned instructions are silent as to the size and type of deep-dish pan to be used with the LouToGo Dough, or possibly the instructions that accompany the LouToGo Dough are more specific on this point. However, as capitalists and entrepreneurs, and apparently good ones at that, I can see why the Malnatis might want to be silent on this point as to not to discourage people from buying the dough because they don't have the right size or type of deep-dish pan.

In the LouToGo Dough video, it appears that Marc Malnati is using one pound of dough with what seems to be a 12" x 2" straight-sided deep-dish pan with the dough pushed up the sides of the pan by about 1 1/4" (it's hard to say for sure because a lot more video coverage is given to the rectangular pizza being assembled by Rick Malnati while Marc "plays" around his dough ball). I used the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html with some rough experimental values of baker's percents for a one-pound dough piece and I estimate that the thickness factor is below 0.11 when the depth of the dough is 1 1/4-1 1/2" in a 12" x 2" straight-sided deep-dish pan. That leads me to believe that the deep-dish example in the video is not intended to be a precise one but rather illustrative. Using a 1" dough depth as suggested by the Malnati's LouToGo Dough instructions gets us to a thickness factor value of 0.1132, which seems to be more in line with what BTB, Loo and others have been using.

Peter

[pizzard]

Romano cheese is stated as an ingredient vs. parmesan.

I generally skip this when I make a deep dish, because if the grated cheese gets too well done it just throws the flavor of the whole pizza off.  Perhaps worth adding right when it comes out of the oven.

[dms]

dms,

Maybe I am misreading the requirements for pizza crusts (55 grams serving size), at http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfCFR/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=101.12 (footnote 2), but does the 55-gram serving size apply to ready-to-serve or almost-ready-to-serve products, which would apply to a pizza crust but not to pizza dough?

No, non-cooked products are labeled the same way as cooked ones.  That you're going to add sauce and cheese doesn't matter.

[Pete-zza]

dms,

The other day, I checked out the serving size information for some frozen dough products at two local supermarkets. There were not that many products to check out but I did note the weights given for serving sizes for dough for bread rolls and for bread. The serving size for the rolls was two rolls, with a weight of 57 grams. The serving size for the frozen bread dough was one-inch, also with a weight of 57 grams. As noted previously, 57 grams is also the figure that Malnati's uses for the LouToGo Dough.

Peter