A real deep dish video

[DKM]

3. Both the original video that DKM posted and the instructions given by Malnati's on the LouToGo Dough at http://www.loumalnatis.com/About/baking_reheating.aspx specify that Parmesan cheese be used. Maybe Malnati's has gone to Parmesan cheese, but my recollection is that their frozen pizzas specify Romano cheese. Since Mary apparently has the boxes with the labeling information, maybe she can shed some light on what the frozen pizzas currently use as grated cheese.

Marc Malnati states in the second video I posted that it is a parmesan, romano, organo mix which i have heard him use before on other shows.  This is a common mixed used by many pizza places but anyone seeing it would call it "parmesan" by nature.

[Pete-zza]

As I mentioned in Reply 116 (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg92350.html#msg92350), I sent an email to Malnati's regarding the salt and sugar listed as ingredients in the LouToGo Dough and the related Nutrition Facts for those ingredients. Tonight, I got a phone call on this matter from Jim Freeland, the executive (corporate) chef for Malnati's. He is in a management position but supervises many activities within Malnati's. What came out of our conversation, which also covered other areas of their products, can be summarized as follows:

1. I was told that the ingredients list and the related Nutrition Facts for the LouToGo Dough are correct. Freeland said that sugar and salt are added to the dough, as noted in the ingredients list, but the amounts are very small at the single-serving level. He added that when they make dough using hundreds of pounds of flour, the amounts of salt and sugar are material from a measurement standpoint. It only looks negligible when scaled down to the per serving level. From our discussion, I think it is fair to say that there is very little salt and sugar in their LouToGo Dough.

2. The LouToGo Dough is very similar to what is used in Malnati's stores. I asked if the amount of yeast is increased to compensate for the damage done to yeast by freezing, Freeland said that they do make yeast adjustments. Apart from the yeast adjustment, I did not come away with the impression that the two doughs are identical. I think it is because of the added salt and sugar, even if used in small quantities. It could be that the use of salt and sugar are related to the freezing process.

3. The flour used in the Malnati doughs is a proprietary blend that is prepared to their specs for ash, protein, etc. They have several millers who mill for them and package the flour in Malnati bags. When I said that their Nutrition Facts suggested all-purpose flour to me, he balked and said that that wasn't quite true but did not elaborate on that point other than to say that they have a special blend. 

4. On the topic of the Malnati tomatoes, I said that I understood that they used Benito's as a supplier. He said that was true but that they have other suppliers also. When I mentioned that there was salt in their sauce, he said that that was salt that is added by the supplier as an inherent part of the canning process, not because they wanted to add salt to their sauce.

5. The frozen pizzas that Malnati's sells are made exactly like the pizzas sold in their stores except for the fact that the frozen pizzas are partially baked before freezing. I was told that the same ingredients and the same quantities of ingredients are used for the frozen pizzas as for the fresh ones, and that it would be a mistake to try to sell people pizzas that are different than what they may have had in Malnati's stores. Freeland noted that there will always be differences between a frozen product and a fresh one, and that was also true of their pizzas.

Peter

[loowaters]

More great investigative work Peter.  Too bad you couldn't get more info about the flour out of him.  This is interesting and I just want to confirm that I'm reading this like you intended.

5. The frozen pizzas that Malnati's sells are made exactly like the pizzas sold in their stores except for the fact that the frozen pizzas are partially baked before freezing. I was told that the same ingredients and the same quantities of ingredients are used for the frozen pizzas as for the fresh ones, and that it would be a mistake to try to sell people pizzas that are different than what they may have had in Malnati's stores. Freeland noted that there will always be differences between a frozen product and a fresh one, and that was also true of their pizzas.

So the pizzas are identical, or "exactly like", but different because fresh and frozen will always be different even if made with all the same ingredients prepared in the same fashion?

Loo

[Pete-zza]

So the pizzas are identical, or "exactly like", but different because fresh and frozen will always be different even if made with all the same ingredients prepared in the same fashion?

Loo,

Jim Freeland told me that he supervises the frozen pizza operation and that he could assure me that all of their frozen pizzas are hand made exactly the same as their fresh pizzas. The differences are because a frozen pizza is not the same as a fresh pizza. It may be like the Home Run Inn situation. I have read that the frozen HRI pizzas are not as good as the ones bought in the HRI stores. When you and I researched the matter, I recalled reading that HRI worked hard to try to make their frozen pizzas just like the ones sold in their stores.

I, too, would have liked to get more information on the flour. However, the predicate for the discussion was the salt and sugar issues. It would have been difficult for me to shift gears and start asking pointed questions on the flour. I posed my comments on the flour and tomatoes as "fact", that is, as though I already knew the answers, to see what reactions I would get. That method worked well because it told us that their flour is still an issue for us, and it confirmed your suspicions that Benito's is a supplier of tomatoes to Malnati's. I was surprised that I was able to shift the discussion from the LouToGo Dough to the basic Malnati's products without raising suspicions.

Peter

[BTB]

Regarding the flour  --  doubtless, many of us have asked this question of ourselves a number of times over the years:  What kind of flour would Ike Sewell's staff, including the Malnati's that work in the original Pizzeria Uno's in the 40's and 50's, have used?  What was commonly available back then?  What's the likelihood that they would have built their great reputation based on a fancy, sophisticated flour blend back then?  It doesn't seem likely to me that they would have utilized something too complicated.  Wouldn't seem like rocket science . . . but is it?

While not old enough to know, I've asked some other "old timers" and their recollection was that even all-purpose blends were not commonly availble back then.  Well then, what was?

Food for thought . . . or is it pizza for the stomach?

                                                                                               --BTB

[vcb]

Regarding the flour  --  doubtless, many of us have asked this question of ourselves a number of times over the years:  What kind of flour would Ike Sewell's staff, including the Malnati's that work in the original Pizzeria Uno's in the 40's and 50's, have used?  What was commonly available back then?  What's the likelihood that they would have built their great reputation based on a fancy, sophisticated flour blend back then?  It doesn't seem likely to me that they would have utilized something too complicated.  Wouldn't seem like rocket science . . . but is it?

While not old enough to know, I've asked some other "old timers" and their recollection was that even all-purpose blends were not commonly availble back then.  Well then, what was?

Food for thought . . . or is it pizza for the stomach?

                                                                                               --BTB

Actually, BTB...
I have been asking myself that, which was why I started thinking that semolina might be the wrong road to go down, although there might still be something about durum or other hard winter wheats.
Anyway... I was thinking maybe one of the all-purpose flours (other than King Arthur) is a little different from the others... then I went looking at nutrition labels at my grocery store.

The Ceresota brand, for example, has a 22g carb to 3g protein, with 1g each fiber and sugar making up part of that 22 grams of carbs.
Next to it on the shelf, Pillsbury was 23 grams (1 gram fiber, 0g sugar) to 3g protein.
The combination of wheat to barley flour might be different among brands and perhaps one of them is closer to the stuff they might have used at Pizzeria Uno.

Has anyone tried using Heckers/Ceresota all-purpose flour for a deep dish pie?
I haven't tried theirs yet, but interestingly, their website says this:
"Ceresota flour is The Official Flour for Chicago Style Certifications at the International School of Pizza!"
http://heckersceresota.com/ceresota.html

p.s. - I just ran a search on the whole forum for Ceresota and others have also mentioned a preference for this brand.

[Pete-zza]

BTB,

As I was discussing the flour issue with Freeland, I asked myself which side of all-purpose flour he was thinking of--cake flour or bread flour. However, he did not give a hint of the answer. I mentioned Hecker's/Ceresota in the context of local, Chicago-area flours, hoping that he might reveal something, but he did not bite. It was clear that he wasn't going to say much on the subject. In line with your thesis, I may do some further review of flours to see what an all-purpose/cake flour blend does to the Nutrition Facts numbers.

vcb,

Member buzz frequently stated that his preference for the deep-dish style was Hecker's or Ceresota, as he stated, for example, in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2201.msg19378/topicseen.html#msg19378. Tom Lehmann, who hails from Chicago, also has also frequently mentioned those flours for folks in the Chicago area. When I was researching Nutrition Facts, I did take a look at the Nutrition Facts for those two flours, at http://heckersceresota.com/nutrition.html. However, nothing jumped out at me at the time to come to any conclusions. There is a lot of rounding of numbers in Nutrition Facts to be able to draw useful conclusions in many instances.

Peter

[BTB]

"Ceresota flour is The Official Flour for Chicago Style Certifications at the International School of Pizza!"

Interesting, but puzzling quote.  Chicago pizza enthusiasts have learned that the term Chicago Style is loosely used to suggest a number of things.  Was it meant to cover only deep dish pan pizza styles (whose crust is very different)? 

Down here in Florida, of course, we don't see Hecker's/Ceresota (am uncertain if its at GFS), but will have to wait till we return "up north" for the few summer months that we return for.  Had anyone noticed anything special about Hecker's/Ceresota?  Is it commonly availabe in the Chicago area (in bags less than 10 lbs)?

[vcb]

Interesting, but puzzling quote.  Chicago pizza enthusiasts have learned that the term Chicago Style is loosely used to suggest a number of things.  Was it meant to cover only deep dish pan pizza styles (whose crust is very different)? 

Down here in Florida, of course, we don't see Hecker's/Ceresota (am uncertain if its at GFS), but will have to wait till we return "up north" for the few summer months that we return for.  Had anyone noticed anything special about Hecker's/Ceresota?  Is it commonly availabe in the Chicago area (in bags less than 10 lbs)?

Yes, you can get consumer-size (and larger) bags of Ceresota at just about every local grocery chain in Chicago.

[dms]

BTB,

As I was discussing the flour issue with Freeland, I asked myself which side of all-purpose flour he was thinking of--cake flour or bread flour. However, he did not give a hint of the answer. I mentioned Hecker's/Ceresota in the context of local, Chicago-area flours, hoping that he might reveal something, but he did not bite. It was clear that he wasn't going to say much on the subject. In line with your thesis, I may do some further review of flours to see what an all-purpose/cake flour blend does to the Nutrition Facts numbers.

unfortunately, the serving size of flour hs been reduced to 1/4 cup.  That makes it impossible to use the nutrition facts numbers to figure out what the protein content of flours is, because with rounding, essentially all flours will have 3 g.  (which means the actual number can be from just over 2g to just under 4.)

My guess is that they're using a flour that's not far from what creseota make.  But they certainly use enough flour to make having their own blend reasonable.  (min. orders for custom flour is only a couple tons.) 

[Pete-zza]

Way back in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg88861.html#msg88861, BTB gave a link to a Lou Malnati YouTube video in which he makes a 9" sausage pizza. The link to that video is

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_ymnmarRU&amp;NR=1" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_ymnmarRU&amp;NR=1</a>

. Can anyone tell me what the "6" marking on the scale at about 1:06 in the video represents? It can't be 6 pounds and it can't be 6 ounces. If the scale has a tare feature, then could it mean that the sauce plus grated cheese is 6 ounces? Or could the "6" reading mean 32 ounces + 6 ounces = 38 ounces including the pan? That would be my best guess. An entire mail-order partially-baked 9" Malnati's sausage pizza weighs 678 grams, or 23.93 ounces.

The scale in the video looks like it is an Edlund scale such as one of the 32 ounce x 1/4 ounce scales shown at http://www.edlundco.com/pdf/PremierScales_Sheet_051409.pdf. In the video, it looks like a piece a tape covers the name (Edlund?) on the scale. I did not see any reference to the Edlund scales shown in the pdf document as having a tare feature. Since the platform appears to be all the way down in the video with the pizza and pan on it, I would guess that the scale is a 32 ounce scale and that the pizza and pan overshot the mark by 6 ounces. Note that Marc says that the pizza "is off the charts".

Peter

[dms]

t'hat's an older Edlund portion control scale.  Roughly equivalent to the the SR2 in the document you reference.  One tares the scale by turning the knob (in the center of the face) until the pointer is at zero.  38 ounces is a pretty good guess, but since you don't see the the pointer at zero, who knows. 

[tcarlisle]

The sound in the video and the way it appears, in my opinion it is completely bottoming out the scale, so I don't think this is any indication of the real weight of the product.

[Pete-zza]

For those who are interested, the label of the Malnati's canned tomato sauce can be seen at http://www.flickr.com/photos/loumalnatis/3662868312/. Also, judging from this website, http://take25tohollister.blogspot.com/2008/11/canning-fans.html, I don't get the impression that Hollister, CA is brimming with canneries. I wouldn't be surprised if San Benito is the main supplier of tomato sauce to Malnati's. If the San Benito tomatoes are fresh-pack, someone like Stanislaus could be a back-up supplier.

Peter

[vcb]

Way back in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg88861.html#msg88861, BTB gave a link to a Lou Malnati YouTube video in which he makes a 9" sausage pizza. The link to that video is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_ymnmarRU&NR=1. Can anyone tell me what the "6" marking on the scale at about 1:06 in the video represents?...

...Note that Marc says that the pizza "is off the charts".

Peter

Watch the video again... the scale pointer went ALL THE WAY AROUND until the pizza hit the bottom of the scale.
It just happened to end at the 6, which means nothing because pizza was heavier than the scale could weigh.
It literally WAS "off the charts".

[loowaters]

For those who are interested, the label of the Malnati's canned tomato sauce can be seen at http://www.flickr.com/photos/loumalnatis/3662868312/. Also, judging from this website, http://take25tohollister.blogspot.com/2008/11/canning-fans.html, I don't get the impression that Hollister, CA is brimming with canneries. I wouldn't be surprised if San Benito is the main supplier of tomato sauce to Malnati's. If the San Benito tomatoes are fresh-pack, someone like Stanislaus could be a back-up supplier.

Peter

Just as I posted in this thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10474.0.html

I didn't mention it in that thread but it would make sense that Malnati's uses the "a Gradito" tomatoes, chopped, in heavy juice "Irregular cut premium tomatoes with larger chunks up to 2" in size".  We've seen Marc just pull a chunk of tomato out of a freshly opened can and eat one.  They would already be de-seeded and, for the most part, cores removed.  Heavy juice also seems right as their "sauce" is kinda thin without regards to the chunks of tomato in it.

Loo

[Pete-zza]

tcarlisle and Ed (vcb),

You guys may well be right about the scale. However, at the time I was researching the Edlund scales, I saw that there were certain models, like the SR-2 (http://www.edlundco.com/pdf/PremierScales_Sheet_051409.pdf), that can handle up to five pounds of weight. I couldn't answer my own question with certainty because the Edlund model shown in the video was an older model and is not shown in the pdf document reference above (and in my earlier post).

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I didn't mention it in that thread but it would make sense that Malnati's uses the "a Gradito" tomatoes, chopped, in heavy juice "Irregular cut premium tomatoes with larger chunks up to 2" in size".  That would make sense as we've seen mark just pull a chunk of tomato out of a freshly opened can and eat one.  They would already be de-seeded and, for the most part, cores removed.  Heavy juice also seems right as their "sauce" is kinda thin without regards to the chunks of tomato in it.

Loo,

As noted at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7467.msg64252/topicseen.html#msg64252, the Malnati's pizza sauce apparently comprises "tomatoes, tomato puree, salt, citric acid". I don't know if "heavy juice" is the same as "tomato puree", but some other possibilities might be as shown at http://www.sanbenitofoods.com/nwpack/shop/catalog.asp?session=6058241591&plantid=13. Of course, Malnati's pizza sauce can be formulated to their specs on an exclusive basis.

Peter

[loowaters]

Is there any legal distinction in the food and nutrition world of rules between what would be "heavy juice" vs. puree?  I'd never heard "heavy juice" used as a description before seeing that product but heavy juice or thin puree would be about the same to me.  Not that I count for much.

Loo

[vcb]

Is there any legal distinction in the food and nutrition world of rules between what would be "heavy juice" vs. puree?  I'd never heard "heavy juice" used as a description before seeing that product but heavy juice or thin puree would be about the same to me.  Not that I count for much.

Loo

Water content from tomatoes has been a tricky issue for deep dish - at least it has for me.
You want some moisture in there, but if you get too much, the pizza can get soggy after you cut into it.
I'll bet Malnati's uses 'puree' because it's a little less water than tomatoes just packed in 'juice', but still soupy enough to be a Lou's pizza.

If you haven't yet, find and try a few cans of 'San Marzano' diced (white label - grown in USA).
They use the irregular sized chunks of tomato as you describe.
They list their ingredients as: Diced Tomatoes, Tomato Juice, Salt (sodium chloride) , Calcium Chloride (another salt), and citric acid.
The only thing I'd recommend is draining the tomatoes for a few minutes to get rid of the excess juice, then maybe adding in a bit of crushed tomatoes (or add some of the juice back) if you want it a little more saucy.