Author Topic: A real deep dish video  (Read 36116 times)

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Offline vcb

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #125 on: March 11, 2010, 10:14:43 AM »
Regarding the flour  --  doubtless, many of us have asked this question of ourselves a number of times over the years:  What kind of flour would Ike Sewell's staff, including the Malnati's that work in the original Pizzeria Uno's in the 40's and 50's, have used?  What was commonly available back then?  What's the likelihood that they would have built their great reputation based on a fancy, sophisticated flour blend back then?  It doesn't seem likely to me that they would have utilized something too complicated.  Wouldn't seem like rocket science . . . but is it?

While not old enough to know, I've asked some other "old timers" and their recollection was that even all-purpose blends were not commonly availble back then.  Well then, what was?

Food for thought . . . or is it pizza for the stomach?

                                                                                               --BTB

Actually, BTB...
I have been asking myself that, which was why I started thinking that semolina might be the wrong road to go down, although there might still be something about durum or other hard winter wheats.
Anyway... I was thinking maybe one of the all-purpose flours (other than King Arthur) is a little different from the others... then I went looking at nutrition labels at my grocery store.

The Ceresota brand, for example, has a 22g carb to 3g protein, with 1g each fiber and sugar making up part of that 22 grams of carbs.
Next to it on the shelf, Pillsbury was 23 grams (1 gram fiber, 0g sugar) to 3g protein.
The combination of wheat to barley flour might be different among brands and perhaps one of them is closer to the stuff they might have used at Pizzeria Uno.

Has anyone tried using Heckers/Ceresota all-purpose flour for a deep dish pie?
I haven't tried theirs yet, but interestingly, their website says this:
"Ceresota flour is The Official Flour for Chicago Style Certifications at the International School of Pizza!"
http://heckersceresota.com/ceresota.html

p.s. - I just ran a search on the whole forum for Ceresota and others have also mentioned a preference for this brand.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 10:21:04 AM by vcb »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #126 on: March 11, 2010, 10:29:18 AM »
BTB,

As I was discussing the flour issue with Freeland, I asked myself which side of all-purpose flour he was thinking of--cake flour or bread flour. However, he did not give a hint of the answer. I mentioned Hecker's/Ceresota in the context of local, Chicago-area flours, hoping that he might reveal something, but he did not bite. It was clear that he wasn't going to say much on the subject. In line with your thesis, I may do some further review of flours to see what an all-purpose/cake flour blend does to the Nutrition Facts numbers.

vcb,

Member buzz frequently stated that his preference for the deep-dish style was Hecker's or Ceresota, as he stated, for example, in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2201.msg19378/topicseen.html#msg19378. Tom Lehmann, who hails from Chicago, also has also frequently mentioned those flours for folks in the Chicago area. When I was researching Nutrition Facts, I did take a look at the Nutrition Facts for those two flours, at http://heckersceresota.com/nutrition.html. However, nothing jumped out at me at the time to come to any conclusions. There is a lot of rounding of numbers in Nutrition Facts to be able to draw useful conclusions in many instances.

Peter

Offline BTB

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #127 on: March 11, 2010, 10:46:25 AM »
"Ceresota flour is The Official Flour for Chicago Style Certifications at the International School of Pizza!"
Interesting, but puzzling quote.  Chicago pizza enthusiasts have learned that the term Chicago Style is loosely used to suggest a number of things.  Was it meant to cover only deep dish pan pizza styles (whose crust is very different)? 

Down here in Florida, of course, we don't see Hecker's/Ceresota (am uncertain if its at GFS), but will have to wait till we return "up north" for the few summer months that we return for.  Had anyone noticed anything special about Hecker's/Ceresota?  Is it commonly availabe in the Chicago area (in bags less than 10 lbs)?

Offline vcb

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #128 on: March 11, 2010, 10:50:42 AM »
Interesting, but puzzling quote.  Chicago pizza enthusiasts have learned that the term Chicago Style is loosely used to suggest a number of things.  Was it meant to cover only deep dish pan pizza styles (whose crust is very different)? 

Down here in Florida, of course, we don't see Hecker's/Ceresota (am uncertain if its at GFS), but will have to wait till we return "up north" for the few summer months that we return for.  Had anyone noticed anything special about Hecker's/Ceresota?  Is it commonly availabe in the Chicago area (in bags less than 10 lbs)?

Yes, you can get consumer-size (and larger) bags of Ceresota at just about every local grocery chain in Chicago.
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Offline dms

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #129 on: March 11, 2010, 01:19:27 PM »
BTB,

As I was discussing the flour issue with Freeland, I asked myself which side of all-purpose flour he was thinking of--cake flour or bread flour. However, he did not give a hint of the answer. I mentioned Hecker's/Ceresota in the context of local, Chicago-area flours, hoping that he might reveal something, but he did not bite. It was clear that he wasn't going to say much on the subject. In line with your thesis, I may do some further review of flours to see what an all-purpose/cake flour blend does to the Nutrition Facts numbers.

unfortunately, the serving size of flour hs been reduced to 1/4 cup.  That makes it impossible to use the nutrition facts numbers to figure out what the protein content of flours is, because with rounding, essentially all flours will have 3 g.  (which means the actual number can be from just over 2g to just under 4.)

My guess is that they're using a flour that's not far from what creseota make.  But they certainly use enough flour to make having their own blend reasonable.  (min. orders for custom flour is only a couple tons.) 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #130 on: March 13, 2010, 04:42:19 PM »
Way back in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg88861.html#msg88861, BTB gave a link to a Lou Malnati YouTube video in which he makes a 9" sausage pizza. The link to that video is . Can anyone tell me what the "6" marking on the scale at about 1:06 in the video represents? It can't be 6 pounds and it can't be 6 ounces. If the scale has a tare feature, then could it mean that the sauce plus grated cheese is 6 ounces? Or could the "6" reading mean 32 ounces + 6 ounces = 38 ounces including the pan? That would be my best guess. An entire mail-order partially-baked 9" Malnati's sausage pizza weighs 678 grams, or 23.93 ounces.

The scale in the video looks like it is an Edlund scale such as one of the 32 ounce x 1/4 ounce scales shown at http://www.edlundco.com/pdf/PremierScales_Sheet_051409.pdf. In the video, it looks like a piece a tape covers the name (Edlund?) on the scale. I did not see any reference to the Edlund scales shown in the pdf document as having a tare feature. Since the platform appears to be all the way down in the video with the pizza and pan on it, I would guess that the scale is a 32 ounce scale and that the pizza and pan overshot the mark by 6 ounces. Note that Marc says that the pizza "is off the charts".

Peter

Offline dms

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #131 on: March 13, 2010, 07:24:39 PM »
t'hat's an older Edlund portion control scale.  Roughly equivalent to the the SR2 in the document you reference.  One tares the scale by turning the knob (in the center of the face) until the pointer is at zero.  38 ounces is a pretty good guess, but since you don't see the the pointer at zero, who knows. 

Offline tcarlisle

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #132 on: March 18, 2010, 08:32:45 PM »
The sound in the video and the way it appears, in my opinion it is completely bottoming out the scale, so I don't think this is any indication of the real weight of the product.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #133 on: March 18, 2010, 09:56:10 PM »
For those who are interested, the label of the Malnati's canned tomato sauce can be seen at http://www.flickr.com/photos/loumalnatis/3662868312/. Also, judging from this website, http://take25tohollister.blogspot.com/2008/11/canning-fans.html, I don't get the impression that Hollister, CA is brimming with canneries. I wouldn't be surprised if San Benito is the main supplier of tomato sauce to Malnati's. If the San Benito tomatoes are fresh-pack, someone like Stanislaus could be a back-up supplier.

Peter


Offline vcb

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #134 on: March 18, 2010, 11:46:25 PM »
Way back in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg88861.html#msg88861, BTB gave a link to a Lou Malnati YouTube video in which he makes a 9" sausage pizza. The link to that video is . Can anyone tell me what the "6" marking on the scale at about 1:06 in the video represents?...

...Note that Marc says that the pizza "is off the charts".

Peter

Watch the video again... the scale pointer went ALL THE WAY AROUND until the pizza hit the bottom of the scale.
It just happened to end at the 6, which means nothing because pizza was heavier than the scale could weigh.
It literally WAS "off the charts".
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Offline loowaters

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #135 on: March 19, 2010, 07:43:34 AM »
For those who are interested, the label of the Malnati's canned tomato sauce can be seen at http://www.flickr.com/photos/loumalnatis/3662868312/. Also, judging from this website, http://take25tohollister.blogspot.com/2008/11/canning-fans.html, I don't get the impression that Hollister, CA is brimming with canneries. I wouldn't be surprised if San Benito is the main supplier of tomato sauce to Malnati's. If the San Benito tomatoes are fresh-pack, someone like Stanislaus could be a back-up supplier.

Peter

Just as I posted in this thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10474.0.html

I didn't mention it in that thread but it would make sense that Malnati's uses the "a Gradito" tomatoes, chopped, in heavy juice "Irregular cut premium tomatoes with larger chunks up to 2" in size".  We've seen Marc just pull a chunk of tomato out of a freshly opened can and eat one.  They would already be de-seeded and, for the most part, cores removed.  Heavy juice also seems right as their "sauce" is kinda thin without regards to the chunks of tomato in it.

Loo
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 08:08:03 AM by loowaters »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #136 on: March 19, 2010, 08:00:47 AM »
tcarlisle and Ed (vcb),

You guys may well be right about the scale. However, at the time I was researching the Edlund scales, I saw that there were certain models, like the SR-2 (http://www.edlundco.com/pdf/PremierScales_Sheet_051409.pdf), that can handle up to five pounds of weight. I couldn't answer my own question with certainty because the Edlund model shown in the video was an older model and is not shown in the pdf document reference above (and in my earlier post).

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #137 on: March 19, 2010, 08:13:22 AM »
I didn't mention it in that thread but it would make sense that Malnati's uses the "a Gradito" tomatoes, chopped, in heavy juice "Irregular cut premium tomatoes with larger chunks up to 2" in size".  That would make sense as we've seen mark just pull a chunk of tomato out of a freshly opened can and eat one.  They would already be de-seeded and, for the most part, cores removed.  Heavy juice also seems right as their "sauce" is kinda thin without regards to the chunks of tomato in it.

Loo,

As noted at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7467.msg64252/topicseen.html#msg64252, the Malnati's pizza sauce apparently comprises "tomatoes, tomato puree, salt, citric acid". I don't know if "heavy juice" is the same as "tomato puree", but some other possibilities might be as shown at http://www.sanbenitofoods.com/nwpack/shop/catalog.asp?session=6058241591&plantid=13. Of course, Malnati's pizza sauce can be formulated to their specs on an exclusive basis.

Peter

Offline loowaters

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #138 on: March 19, 2010, 08:21:05 AM »
Is there any legal distinction in the food and nutrition world of rules between what would be "heavy juice" vs. puree?  I'd never heard "heavy juice" used as a description before seeing that product but heavy juice or thin puree would be about the same to me.  Not that I count for much.

Loo
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Offline vcb

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #139 on: March 19, 2010, 09:23:39 AM »
Is there any legal distinction in the food and nutrition world of rules between what would be "heavy juice" vs. puree?  I'd never heard "heavy juice" used as a description before seeing that product but heavy juice or thin puree would be about the same to me.  Not that I count for much.

Loo

Water content from tomatoes has been a tricky issue for deep dish - at least it has for me.
You want some moisture in there, but if you get too much, the pizza can get soggy after you cut into it.
I'll bet Malnati's uses 'puree' because it's a little less water than tomatoes just packed in 'juice', but still soupy enough to be a Lou's pizza.

If you haven't yet, find and try a few cans of 'San Marzano' diced (white label - grown in USA).
They use the irregular sized chunks of tomato as you describe.
They list their ingredients as: Diced Tomatoes, Tomato Juice, Salt (sodium chloride) , Calcium Chloride (another salt), and citric acid.
The only thing I'd recommend is draining the tomatoes for a few minutes to get rid of the excess juice, then maybe adding in a bit of crushed tomatoes (or add some of the juice back) if you want it a little more saucy.
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Offline tcarlisle

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #140 on: March 19, 2010, 10:05:52 AM »
tcarlisle and Ed (vcb),

You guys may well be right about the scale. However, at the time I was researching the Edlund scales, I saw that there were certain models, like the SR-2 (http://www.edlundco.com/pdf/PremierScales_Sheet_051409.pdf), that can handle up to five pounds of weight. I couldn't answer my own question with certainty because the Edlund model shown in the video was an older model and is not shown in the pdf document reference above (and in my earlier post).

Peter

I'm pretty sure they purposely used an undersized scale just as a prop and to add a little dramatic effect of the pizza bottoming out the scale, and the measurement is quite meaningless.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #141 on: March 19, 2010, 10:15:32 AM »
I'm pretty sure they purposely used an undersized scale just as a prop and to add a little dramatic effect of the pizza bottoming out the scale, and the measurement is quite meaningless.

I am inclined to agree. I can roughly calculate what a fully-baked 10" sausage pizza as made in the video weighs, assuming that a mail-order sausage pizza is the same as one made by Malnati's in its stores, but pan weights can vary all over the lot. So, even if the video provided a clue as to the total weight of pan and pizza, we still wouldn't be able to accurately determine the unbaked weight of the pizza.

Peter


Offline DKM

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #142 on: March 19, 2010, 06:30:09 PM »
The average weight of the six pizzas I got on mail order from Lou's (out of the pan) around 2lbs.

The scale would be used for weighing out toppings, not for weighing the pizza.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #143 on: March 19, 2010, 07:12:12 PM »
The average weight of the six pizzas I got on mail order from Lou's (out of the pan) around 2lbs.

DKM,

Was that the average weight before or after reheating? All of the Malnati's mail-order pizzas (they are all 9") other than the crustless sausage pizza are indicated in their Nutrition Facts as weighing 6 x 113 = 678 grams, or 23.92 ounces. I assume that the weights are for baked pizzas.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 07:30:36 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline DKM

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #144 on: March 19, 2010, 09:57:23 PM »
Peter, it was before. 

Also on the sauce I noticed that on all the sausage pizzas were a little more puree with some small chuncks, whereas the pepperoni had large chucks with little puree.  Has anyone else noticed that.
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Offline FLAVORMAN

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #145 on: March 20, 2010, 03:27:37 PM »
Just thought I would pass this video on about the Brothers using their " Dough to Go pies". Dough looks very soft to me..mine is much more stiff. I use BTB receipe.  hope I wrote down the site right...and not repeating a site you have all seen....deep dish rules!!!!

www.loumalnatis.com/about/baking_reheating.aspx

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #146 on: March 20, 2010, 05:49:01 PM »
FLAVORMAN,

I believe the video you meant to bring to our attention is the one at . If so, that is a video that has been discussed a few times before in this thread, along with the webpage you referenced in your post. Interestingly, however, it looks like the LouToGo Dough is no longer shown as being offered for sale on the Best of Chicago website, as member tcarlysle mentioned recently at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10552.msg93510.html#msg93510. Thinking back, I seem to recall that there was a date associated with the original offer for the LouToGo Dough. I think it was a March date. Maybe Malnati's is rethinking that product. The LouToGo Dough video has been around since Dec. 9, 2009 and has only had 978 views. Our members are perhaps responsible for a good number of those views  :-D.

Peter

Offline garyd

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #147 on: March 20, 2010, 09:19:22 PM »
FLAVORMAN,

I believe the video you meant to bring to our attention is the one at . If so, that is a video that has been discussed a few times before in this thread, along with the webpage you referenced in your post. Interestingly, however, it looks like the LouToGo Dough is no longer shown as being offered for sale on the Best of Chicago website, as member tcarlysle mentioned recently at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10552.msg93510.html#msg93510. Thinking back, I seem to recall that there was a date associated with the original offer for the LouToGo Dough. I think it was a March date. Maybe Malnati's is rethinking that product. The LouToGo Dough video has been around since Dec. 9, 2009 and has only had 978 views. Our members are perhaps responsible for a good number of those views  :-D.

Peter

There's a couple of people on here who got some Lou-To-Go-Dough. Has anyone tried it yet? BTB?

Offline BTB

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #148 on: March 22, 2010, 11:08:27 AM »
Yesterday I made two 9" diameter Chicago Style deep dish pizzas with sausage, one utilizing a favorite formulation of mine and one utilizing the Lou-To-Go-Dough (hereafter LTG) that I received a couple of weeks earlier, which remained frozen until yesterday morning.  Using the Deep-Dish Pizza Dough Calculator, the home made dough formulation for the first 9" deep dish pizza was as follows:
 
Flour Blend* (100%):  206.65 g  |  7.29 oz | 0.46 lbs
Water (45%):  92.99 g  |  3.28 oz | 0.21 lbs
ADY (.75%):  1.55 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Salt (1%):  2.07 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.76 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  24.8 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.51 tsp | 1.84 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%):  12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.62 tsp | 0.87 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Total (172.25%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875
   Note: For 9" pan with a depth of 2" and the dough rising 1 1/2" up the sides of the pan; nominal thickness factor = 0.125; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.
*The Flour Blend was 80% KAAP (165.3 g/5.83 oz.) and 20% semolina (41.3 g/1.45 oz.).
 
The homemade dough was made in the early morning, rose and was punched down several times until it was pressed out into the pan shortly before baking in mid afternoon.  The LTG dough was taken out of the freezer in the early morning and allowed to thaw throughout the day on the counter until it was pressed out into a pan shortly before baking in mid afternoon also (used only 12.5 oz. of the 15.9 oz package).  Both were "dressed" the same:  about 6 to 7 ounces of sliced cheese (mostly mozzarella with a small amount of Scarmoza added), mild uncooked Italian sausage, some crushed tomatoes (San Marzano brand) that had a lot of small diced tomato pieces, spices (oregano, basil, garlic, salt), and all topped with some freshly grated Parmigiano-Reggiano.  Both pizzas were baked on a low oven rack in my electric oven at 425 degrees F for about 38 minutes, rotating the pans a couple of times during the baking cycle.
 
There were four of us who did the taste test.  All were in the past familiar with Malnati's great pizzas.  None but me knew which crust was which.  Matter of fact, none but me knew that one of the crusts was from the LTG dough.  In the 4 pictures that follow, the LTG dough was used in the pizza on the right.

Offline BTB

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Re: A real deep dish video
« Reply #149 on: March 22, 2010, 11:11:58 AM »
The pizza with the home made crust baked up nice and golden brown, and got that way quicker than the Malnati's crust.  I wonder if that was because of the sugar and/or butter in the home made recipe.  Anyway, the home made crust's flavor, texture, taste, etc. was considered "excellent" by all tasters.