Help with Pete-zza's PJ Clone- Pictures

[Country Girl]

Hi, I'm new here but not new to pizza making.  I've been making homemade pizza at least once a week for about the last 6 or 7 years.  However, pizza making for me has always been mostly for the sake of having something to eat.  I love pizza and figured you can never go wrong with sauce, cheese, and bread.  I think the pizza I usually make is pretty good but nothing great but figured it was as good as you could get with homemade pizza (I've never met anyone else who has made homemade pizza).  That was until I found this forum!  I've been reading posts, drooling over pictures, and becoming inspired to make a great homemade pizza.... one that my family and I will prefer over ordering take-out.  I decided to start with Pete-zza's 2-day PJ clone since we all love PJ's pizza.  I made 2 balls 2 days ago and baked the pizzas tonight.     They really tasted VERY good, but didn't have the texture that I was looking for.  When I made the dough, it seemed too dry.  The ingredients did come together but the dough felt rubbery and hard.  While I've been making pizza and bread for a long time, I've never made a dough that was meant to ferment in the refrigerator so I thought maybe this was the way it was supposed to be.  Since this was my first time trying this recipe, I didn't want to mess with things and tried to follow the recipe as closely as I could.  I even went out and specially purchased the type of flour Pete used for this recipe and instant yeast (since I have only ever used active yeast before).  When I pulled the dough out tonight to cook it, it still felt rubbery and not very supple.  I let it sit out for a little over 90 minutes at room temp (68) and then with a bit of work, I was able to stretch it to 14".  I don't have a pizza peel or pizza screen, so I made the pizza on a piece of parchment that was dusted with cornmeal and put this on the back of a baking sheet.  From what I've read here, I figured the pizza would stick to the parchment and both would slide onto the stone and I could pull the parchment out part way through.  Instead, the pizza slid right off the parchment and onto my stone.  I think this is because it was so stiff and dry, not sticky at all.  So what can I do differently next time to get a fluffier, lighter crust?  I want the air holes that I see in so many of the pictures of others who have made this pizza.  Should I just add more water, knead longer, let it sit at room temp longer etc.? 

Also, I think I'd like a slightly sweeter crust.  Can I just add a bit more sugar or would I need to do alter other components of the recipe as well?

Finally, I also used Pete-zza's WMGV PJ sauce clone.  This was great!  It really reminded me of the sweet sauce that is on the PJ pizzas.

I'll try to attach a couple of pics I took.  I didn't think of taking a pic until after we had eaten most of it so I only have a pic of a slice.

Thanks!

[Pete-zza]

Country Girl,

I believe the Papa John's clone formulation you used is the one described in Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217.

You are correct that your crust turned out too dense. If I had to guess, I would say that it was because the dough was underhydrated. I have never made a PJ clone dough that was as dense as your crust when baked. My PJ clone doughs are typically quite supple and easy to shape and form into skins. In fact, if anything, the dough skins can be quite extensible. What kind of machine did you use to make the dough and did you use a digital scale to weigh the flour and water or did you use the volume measurements and measurement methods described in Reply 20 referenced above? Also, can you tell me specifically which brand of IDY you used?

I have always baked my PJ clone pizzas on pizza screens, which is what Papa John's uses in its stores. However, there have been some members who have baked their PJ clone pizzas on pizza stones with good results based on the reports I have read. Can you tell me how long you preheated your pizza stone and at what temperature, and on which rack did you place the stone?

The sugar issue is easy to resolve. However, I would not exceed 5% sugar by weight of flour. You could use honey above 5% because honey comprises about 17% water, but I wouldn't go above 6% at this point, at least until you test the sweetness at this level. Honey is sweeter than table sugar, so that should be a good choice.

Maybe I can offer more specific advise once I hear back from you on the questions I have raised above.

Peter

[Country Girl]

Peter,

Thanks for replying so quickly.

Yes, I used the formula that you referenced. 

I used the volume measurements but the next day I went out and purchased a scale, so next time I plan to use mass measurements.  After I made the balls, I figured that my volume measurements were less accurate and that could throw me off. 

I used my KA to mix the dough.  Although I have had my KA for a long time, I've never actually used it to make yeast dough before... I have always mixed and kneaded by hand in the past.  Is there something in the technique that I could be messing up on?

The yeast I used was the SAF Bread Machine yeast.  Again, another first for me.  I usually use Red Star active yeast.

I pre-heated the stone for about an hour at 550 on the middle rack.

Thanks so much for helping me out, I look forward to any suggestions you may have for me.

Carrie

 

[Pete-zza]

Carrie,

My questions were selected to allow me to rule out several possible causes for the results you achieved. Based on your replies, I am inclined to think that the dough was underhydrated. I tested out the conversions of flour and water to volume measurements in Reply 20 but I am scrupulously attentive to the the measurements because I know that it doesn't take much to throw the measurements off. Maybe you were as attentive to the process as I, but I believe that using a digital scale will produce better results for you next time. If you follow my KitchenAid instructions, I think you should be OK. It is also possible to make the dough by using hand kneading.

You might also want to purchase a screen in order to be truer to the way that Papa John's makes its pizzas. However, if you manage to get a good dough with the proper hydration, you might try the stone again to see if you get the desired results.

If you need help with modifying the PJ dough formulation you used to incorporate more sugar or to use honey, let me know.

Peter

[Country Girl]

Thanks again Peter.  I will definitely use the digital scale to make measurements next time.  I don't think I'm probably very accurate with volume measurements.

I've looked locally for a pizza screen but haven't found one.  I do plan to order one but I'm not sure how to use it.  Do I just use the screen in the oven by itself or do I set the screen on a hot stone?

I think I'm going to try the recipe as is again with greater hydration before I try increasing the sugar.  I'm thinking my tastebuds may have been fooled a bit by the dense crust and if it is lighter I may not need the extra sweetness.  If I decide to add more, I'll probably be back for help on that.

Unfortunately, it will probably be a week or two before I have a chance to try this again.  My in-laws are coming for a visit and they aren't as into pizza as I'd like.  Once I get a chance to try it again I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for the help!
Carrie

[Pete-zza]

I've looked locally for a pizza screen but haven't found one.  I do plan to order one but I'm not sure how to use it.  Do I just use the screen in the oven by itself or do I set the screen on a hot stone?

Carrie,

You only need to use the screen by itself. The advantage is that you only need to heat the oven to the desired temperature, not the stone, which could take an hour or so to heat to the same temperature.

If there is a restaurant supply store near you, they may carry pizza screens. For my PJ clones, I use a 14" screen. You can use a larger screen, however, if you want to go above 14".

Peter

[Country Girl]

Peter,

Thanks again.  Not having to heat for so long seems like a big advantage to the screen!  I'm definitely going to buy one.  I'll see if we have a restaurant supply store locally, otherwise I'm going to order one.

Thanks!
Carrie

[Country Girl]

I just wanted to let you know I had a chance to make the pizza again.  We ate it while watching the Super Bowl and it turned out great this time!  The dough was much more hydrated, stretched beautifully, and formed the nice air bubbles that I was looking for.  My husband said it was by far the best homemade pizza he has ever eaten and better than most restaurant pizzas (definitely better than those we have locally).  I even thought the sugar content was just right this time now that the texture was right.  Unfortunately, we ate it all before I thought to snap a picture.  

I have two pizza screens on order and on there way so next time I will try cooking on the screens instead of the stone.  This should take the prep time down a bit and make this pizza even better. 

Now I'm torn between always cooking this pizza (since we loved it so much) versus exploring and seeing if I can find some other great styles of pizza to try out at home.  I can see how making pizza could become addicting if I look at it as an adventure and an art rather than a means to supper.

Thanks so much for all your help. 

Carrie   

[Pete-zza]

Carrie,

Thank you for reporting back on your results. It is always nice to hear about successful outcomes. It looks like using a digital scale gets a lot of the credit.

I think it is a good idea to get a screen or two. Screens do make it easier to make and dress the pizzas and avoid mishaps in loading them into the oven. You will have to report back on your results using the screens, maybe with photos. You might even find that you like the pizzas baked on a stone better, especially with your most recent results in mind.

Peter

[Country Girl]

Peter,

If by chance you get this message today, I was wondering if you could answer a quick question about using the screens.  UPS delivered mine today and I think I may give them a try tonight.  I noticed that you said you cooked them on a screen at 500 on the lowest rack.  When I used the stone I cooked my pizzas at 550.  When I'm using the screen should I cook them at 500 instead like you did?  I used the middle rack for cooking on the stone, but again, should I drop it down to the bottom rack if I use the screen?  Also, I'm using an electric oven with a bottom element.  How high about the element is your bottom rack?  The bottom rack just seems awfully close .

Thanks!

[Pete-zza]

Country Girl,

Each oven is different, and even the racks themselves can be different. My oven has the electric element on the bottom, and depending on which side of my oven rack is up when placed on the lowest rack position, the rack is either 2" or 3" from the electric element. For the Papa John's clone pizzas, I use the 3" spacing, mainly because of the high sugar content. In my oven, I found it best not to use an oven temperature that is too high with the PJ clone doughs because the bottom crusts can bake too fast, before the tops are done baking. In your case, you may have to do some experimenting with the best oven rack position and the bake temperature and time. You might check the bottom of the pizza once the top crust starts to develop decent color. If the bottom looks done, you can move the pizza off of the screen to a higher oven rack position where the top crust and the cheeses can get more color. If the bottom isn't quite done, you can leave the pizza in place to bake longer. The PJ clone pizzas are quite hefty if made to the PJ specs, so you usually won't get an overly cooked top, at least not in my oven.

Peter

[Country Girl]

Thanks,  I'll give it a try and see how it goes.

[Country Girl]

Here is a pic of my latest attempt.  I think it is a big improvement over my first try.  I cooked this on the pizza screen at 550.

[Pete-zza]

Carrie,

As between the latest pizza and the second one you made (using the stone), which did you like better?

Peter

[Country Girl]

That's a hard one since it has been awhile.  But if I had to pick I think maybe I liked the stone better just ever so slightly because it was a bit crisper on the bottom.  However, I much prefer the ease of use of the screens... being able to form the pizza right on the screen and not having to pre-heat for as long.  The difference in texture really wasn't that noticeable to me or the rest of the family so I will definitely stick to the screen for this recipe. 

Thanks for all of your help, I am really happy with the way this has turned out!

Carrie

[tzoavva]

Country Girl,

What kind of cheese did you use?

Joanna

[Country Girl]

Hi Joanna,

I just used part-skim mozzarella.... I don't remember the brand, something I got at Wal-mart.



Also wanted to update and say that the last time I made the pizza I substituted about 1 cup of the flour with whole wheat flour (Wheat Montana Prairie Gold) with very good results.  I had to add a bit more water (didn't measure just went with how it felt) but the baked pizza was very good.  I may try to add a bit more ww flour next time to see how much I can get away with and still maintain the flavor and texture.

[tzoavva]

Thanks Carrie.

Guess I need to check there cheese next time I am there.  Funny thing you mentioned the Whole wheat substitute.  I was actually working on one of Pete-zza's PJ Clones from post http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762 reply #30 for a 12 room temp ferm only to realize that I didn't have enough KABF.  Recipe calls for 375.2g and I only had 225 so the 150g were stone ground whole wheat flour.  I too had to add some additional water to get the right texture.   Didn't think to measure but maybe a tbs or two not more.  Oil was canola instead of soybean and I was worried that the temp wasn't 80degrees as was the original post from Pete-zza's post so I doubled the yeast instead of 1/32 i used 1/16tsp.

The results were surprisingly good.  Below are the pics

[Pete-zza]

tzoavva,

I think you did very well in your improvisation of the PJ clone dough recipe you used to accept some whole wheat flour. You no doubt increased the nutritional value of the pizza. It is good to know that you can substitute some whole wheat flour for the white flour and end up with what looks to be a great pizza. You also did well to increase the amount of yeast to compensate for the cooler room temperature. That shows you were thinking .

Peter