Reverse Engineering UPN Dough

[Matthew]

It seems pretty clear to me that AM is doing some hyping here.

No commercial yeast anyway.

BINGO!

Nothing new here. He just left out the part about adding the old dough. My guess is he’s not capturing new yeast and creating a new “starter” every two days. I think what he is calling a “starter” most on this forum would call a “preferment.” http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9339.msg81103.html#msg81103 

I don’t think he’s describing only his starter here when he talks about two days – rather the entire fermenting process (preferment+final dough), which as he describes it (in the link above), takes about two days. 

Craig

Totally Agree.

[Matthew]

It may mean that he makes a new starter every 3-4 days, which makes sense if you do not refrigerate at all. He makes a starter for the dough the next day, and then keeps it going for another 2 days after - after which it becomes too acidic. Then starts again. In the various videos posted online, and in his own menu, he talks about the way they did it "thousands" of years ago. And I remember him saying "please let the pizza be good tonight" in reference to the dough. So his comments might make sense if that is truly the way he is doing it: no fridge and dealing with the inconsistency of wild yeast.

Looking forward to seeing your results Marc.

John

No chance bro; It's Russian Roulette with more than 1 bullet in the gun!  He's using a starter (with or without old dough) & doesn't want to admit it.

Matt

[hotsawce]

Could you do a mock up time line of how you think he'd do it? I might try experimenting with it to see if it works at all....would definitely be interesting to see.

I wonder what the bakers percents are...

It seems pretty clear to me that AM is doing some hyping here.

No commercial yeast anyway.

Nothing new here. He just left out the part about adding the old dough. My guess is he’s not capturing new yeast and creating a new “starter” every two days. I think what he is calling a “starter” most on this forum would call a “preferment.” http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9339.msg81103.html#msg81103 

I don’t think he’s describing only his starter here when he talks about two days – rather the entire fermenting process (preferment+final dough), which as he describes it (in the link above), takes about two days. 

Craig

[hotsawce]

Perhaps he has simply mastered it  Cause for experiment in the forum...hmmm

No chance bro; It's Russian Roulette with more than 1 bullet in the gun!  He's using a starter (with or without old dough) & doesn't want to admit it.

Matt

[TXCraig1]

Could you do a mock up time line of how you think he'd do it? I might try experimenting with it to see if it works at all....would definitely be interesting to see.

I wonder what the bakers percents are...

I think he does it pretty close (bakers % included) to how I laid it out at the beginning of this thread. That's my best guess anyway.

[TXCraig1]

Perhaps he has simply mastered it  Cause for experiment in the forum...hmmm

I agree with Matt - no chance. And even if you could - why would you want to?

[BrickStoneOven]

Inside of the new UPN. The SF oven looks amazing probably the most beautiful oven I've seen. http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/inside-the-new-una-pizza-napoletana-in-san-francisco.html

[widespreadpizza]

BTW I said thousands of years ago,  when I clearly meant hundereds in my earlier post.  My bad.  So I know I it seems out there to think that this is his method,  but,  if you take the quote at face value.  Sure maybe some hype,  but even AM is not arrogant enough to say that nobody makes sourdough pizza crusts in the US.  Hell,  he has the Boudin bakery right in San Fran,  and they serve sourdough based pizza right there.  I AM NOT saying this is what he is doing,  but it is possible.  I am doing this as an experiment only,  I am not trying to tip my pizzamaking style on its edge.  I am going to make dough tonight,  and bake it tommorow.  -marc

[cornicione54]

BTW I said thousands of years ago,  when I clearly meant hundereds in my earlier post.  My bad.  So I know I it seems out there to think that this is his method,  but,  if you take the quote at face value.  Sure maybe some hype,  but even AM is not arrogant enough to say that nobody makes sourdough pizza crusts in the US.  Hell,  he has the Boudin bakery right in San Fran,  and they serve sourdough based pizza right there.  I AM NOT saying this is what he is doing,  but it is possible.  I am doing this as an experiment only,  I am not trying to tip my pizzamaking style on its edge.  I am going to make dough tonight,  and bake it tommorow.  -marc

Marc - from what I've seen and the accounts of many others who've done similar things, that initial explosion of activity in a flour + water mixture does not sustain much past the third day and it isn't suitable for raising bread or pizza dough. It's some freakish bacterial activity which can end up smelling pretty nasty. After it subsides, the starter tends to go fairly dormant for the next few days and only after repeated refreshes becomes something stable for maintaining as a regular sourdough starter. That's why some folks use the pineapple juice method to prevent that initial explosion. The juice biases the acidity of the starter to encourage lactobacilli and wild yeast to grow in favour of the stinky stuff.

The only way to get a 24 hour starter for use in bread or pizza making is to do something like salt rising bread but that is temperamental and has its own unique funky flavours and aromas.

However even a small amount of healthy starter, even in dried-up form, like the residue on a storage container, can activate within 24 hours. Perhaps this is what is happening with Mangieri's dough. In other words his starter is reactivating from remnants of the last time he made dough even if he's not totally aware that's what's happening.

[dmcavanagh]

Sourdough cultures are a crap shoot when just flour and water are mixed and left at room temp. The "pineapple solution" popularized by Debra Wink solves the leuconostoc problem by introducing an acidic environment which negates the bacteria. However, not all sourdoughs are subject to failure due to the leuconostoc bacteria.

[cornicione54]

Sourdough cultures are a crap shoot when just flour and water are mixed and left at room temp. The "pineapple solution" popularized by Debra Wink solves the leuconostoc problem by introducing an acidic environment which negates the bacteria. However, not all sourdoughs are subject to failure due to the leuconostoc bacteria.

Depends on the flour being used. Rye, for example, is a different grain and different biochemistry with much less chance of the leuconostoc growth arising. In a situation with white (wheat) flour, you are almost guaranteed to get leuconostoc bacteria if the starter is left to its own devices. It's incorrect however to assess the starter as a "failure" due to leuconostoc growth. It's simply a stage the starter may go through before becoming a stable, perfectly useable culture.

[JeffGoggin]

WOW!  Did this thread come alive again?  (which is great because IMO it's one of the most informative posts on here)

A couple things...

I noticed many of the recent questions can be answered if Craig's original post is read thouroughly...

Someone asked about mixing flour and water and it being a starter in 24-48 hours... it would not.  You would need to feed/rinse it for a week or longer to get it really going.  At that time you can mix a small portion of it with flour and water and THAT will be ready to use in 24 hours.  Anthony does this (which I think was mentioned) by throwing in the "old dough" that contains the healthy and active yeast that will quickly start feeding on the new flour and water he adds so it doesn't have to start from the beginning again.

This is off topic but the oven looks AMAZING!  The space, however, looks kind of sterile.  It's early though and I'm sure when the place is jumping (which we know it will be) it will be great!

And last... I own a pizzeria and use a similar recipe (in that I don't use yeast).  I started out that way when we opened, found it difficult for commercial practices, went to ADY, and while always experimenting with small batches, found a way that is at least as manageable as the ADY method (there's always a "bad dough day" every once in a while no matter if you're using ADY or a preferment).

I take a little offense that AM thinks that nobody else tries to use the best possible methods and ingredients for their products just because they're not in all the magazines and all over the internet.  I just want to offer my customers the best pizza I can even though I'm in a nano-market.

My final (actually let's call it my current) recipe is

flour 100%
water 60%
salt 2.75%
starter (100% hydration- fed daily) 5% (to parts water)
1 hour bench rest
ball
24 cold ferment
8 room temp before use

Jeff PG

[garyd]

Found this about no yeast starter. I don't know if I'm posting something that everyone has seen already but here it is:

http://www.ranprieur.com/misc/sourdough.html

[David]

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/youngandhungry/2010/06/30/2amys-consider-yourself-warned-edan-macquaid-is-back-in-business/

[Bill/SFNM]

Thanks, David. Great article about Shango. Beautiful looking pie!

[dmcavanagh]

Ditto!

[hotsawce]

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/serious-eats-talk-sourdough-starter-in-30-hours.html

[arenared993]

In the slice.com pics of his new place, it shows a pic of a mixer.  Does anyone know what make and model mixer is he using? Does it seam relatively small for a commercial pizzeria? Look at the mixer size compared to the power outlets on the wall.  If it is only a 20 quart mixer (my guess) can he make all his dough in one batch?  

[dmcavanagh]

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/serious-eats-talk-sourdough-starter-in-30-hours.html

I started this thread as serious eats, and I agree with Matthew in his above state, I'd just about gaureetee that he is using a very ordinary sourdough starter. Water and flour mixed together a day or two in advance of making the dough is way to funky to rely on.

[BrickStoneOven]

David the link doesn't work. it shows a 404 message.