Reverse Engineering UPN Dough

[dellavecchia]

I believe that Anthony also started using Sabatino Abagnale Terra Amore e Fantasia tomatoes. They are not DOP, but are hand picked in Campania. They are pretty expensive - and in my opinion not worth the extra price compared to most DOP you buy in the supermarkets. It may also be one of the reasons his pies went over $20.

Looks like a very good upn clone!  I know that anthony was at one time given the ischia starter, so it is possible that you are even closer than you may have thought.   Another tip I have for you is that I know Anthony was at one time using Coluccio DOP san marzano tomatoes.  It appears your oven is a little bit cooler than Anthony's, so I just wanted to add that using that malted flour (KAAP) rather than the unmalted caputo is probably really helping you out.   Keep up the good work!

[TXCraig1]

Looks like a very good upn clone!  I know that anthony was at one time given the ischia starter, so it is possible that you are even closer than you may have thought.   Another tip I have for you is that I know Anthony was at one time using Coluccio DOP san marzano tomatoes.  It appears your oven is a little bit cooler than Anthony's, so I just wanted to add that using that malted flour (KAAP) rather than the unmalted caputo is probably really helping you out.   Keep up the good work!

Thanks Scott. Houston, unfortunately, is not the greatest place for finding high quality tomatoes. We have 800 types of BBQ sauce to choose from, but great tomatoes... not so much. I generally can get Cento Italian or DeCecco DOP, or Strianese DOP if I want to drive across town. Actually, all three are pretty good, so I really shouldn't complain.

Craig

[ebpizza]

http://gustiamo.typepad.com/gustiblog/2008/12/terra-amore-e-fantasia-san-marzano-tomatoes.html

[Infoodel]

I wondered how long before my tweet from yesterday would make it through the rumor mill

[Alpine Pie]

Hi Craig,
   Gotta say, pretty awesome post!
So I started the preferment last night at 5:40pm and this morning 8:30am it is more than doubled in sized. It was at 72 degrees. Do you think I will have any trouble with it fermenting too long? Wasn't sure if it was going too fast. I am planning to let it go until 5:40pm tonight which will be a full 24 hrs then mix the final dough. Let that bulk ferment over night till about 7:00am then ball and use the dough around 12 noon.  all in all I am looking at 40 hrs?
Thanks,
Joe

[TXCraig1]

Joe,

Thanks for the kind words on the original post.

I don't think it will be a problem fermenting too long at only 24 hours even if it is going faster than expected. I did a batch a couple weeks ago where I let the preferment go for 48 hours.  The dough was less extensible than with the 24 hour preferment, but the flavor was great. If your dough is a little tight when it comes time to make pies, just open it up part way, let it rest for a couple minutes, then open it up the rest of the way.

What kind of flour are you using? I was experimenting recently with some different preferments, and it seemed like KABF would double faster than KAAP all other things equal. I suspect this is representative of higher protein flours.

I think you'll need to be mindful of the temperature if you plan to let the final dough ferment for 16 hours. That's about 2X what I'm doing. I'd start with cool water (~45-50F). I don't think you'll want the dough to get much over 60F until the last couple hours when you bring it up to room temp before baking. I bet it will taste great with that much time.

What sort of yeast are you using?

I look forward to hearing how the pies come out. Please post pictures too if you can.

Craig

[Alpine Pie]

Hi Craig,
  Thanks for the input,I think they came out pretty good for a first shot with the formula. I am using the Ischia  starter.  I have another double batch working and am experimenting with the salt. The first batch I used Maldon sea salt and the second was Baliene. We'll see if there is much of a difference. It was a long cool rise at room temp here, around 65-70 degrees but it gave me loads of time to make pizza. I balled the dough at 8:30 in the morning and made my first run at 12:30, then 1:30, 3:00 and finally at 6:30pm. The dough was pretty consistent the whole way, maybe a hair over proofed at 6:30 but still totally delish. I have to work on my stretching technique as I feel it should be a little larger for 10oz ball size. The bottom and crumb were fantastic! I am going to be adapting this formula for a long time to come.  Thanks again! Joe
P.s.  These photos were from the 6:30pm batch. Still loads of life to it.

[Alpine Pie]

2

[TXCraig1]

Joe,

The pies look great! I'm glad you like the formula.

What was the cook temp and time?

Craig

[Alpine Pie]

I don't know what the temp was a I am waiting for my thermometer still. I was just watching the dome of the oven and waiting for the carbon to burn white. Once I felt confident I cooked the pie for just under two minutes.

As for the salt adjustment I made, I did see a difference in the taste and rise. It could be because the Maldon has a slower absorption rate because of the larger flakes, or the Baliene was a fine ground that was a touch moist and changed the preferment slightly(which originally worried me because it did not rise nearly as fast as the first batch). Anyhow, I did like the second batch a little better Imo but I am looking for it as well.
Thanks,
Joe

[markus1984]

hi, realy appreciate your post, i wonder if you could tell me how much activity your culture has when put into the dough, mine was at the pick of its activity or close on the way up and the preferment was well ready after 15 hours what didnt please me, i put exactly as much as u indicated, i dont know, the temp wacs 70 or a bit lower maybe 68 and after 12 hours of proofin the final mix it was double the size or a bit more but didnt fall so i am going to try it right now, is there any point of punchin down now when the dough balls are after 12h proof an leave it to rise 1.7? thanks, adam

[TXCraig1]

I would say that my culture is fully active when I add it to the preferment. My preferment looks active after 15 hours, but I would not say it looks "ready," but that a pretty subjective assessment. I've let the preferment go for 24+ hours past the point where one might say it looked "ready." The only differences I noticed were that the final dough was a little less extensible and there was more sour flavor. Overall, I was more happy with 24 total hours on the preferment all things considered - 15 may even be better, I have not tried it.

With this method, I have not needed 12 hours to get the rise I wanted in the final dough - generally it has only taken about 8 hours total. I'm not a big fan of punching down the balls - only the bulk. Others may disagree on that point. I don't know. I think you could let it go to 2X in bulk, punch it down, and then go to ~1.7X in balls. You might want to use bread flour for that.

Craig

[Jackie Tran]

TXCraig1, thank you for the great post.  I'd like to give it a shot this coming week.  Just wanted to clarify something. You bulk rise at 60F (in the cooler) for 4 hours, divide the dough and back into the cooler for another 4 hours at 60F (until ~ 1.7x rise to the balls).  You take the balls out at 60F and stretch from there?

Is there any proofing at room temps (72f) before stretching?  I don't think there is but wanted to make sure. 

Also when you bulk rise and ball rise at 60F (in the cooler), is the dough/balls covered or uncovered? 

Thanks a bunch.

[TXCraig1]

I take the balls out of the cooler (just an igloo ice chest with a block of ice) about the time I fire up the oven (grill). This is after the ~4hour rise on the dough balls.  It's usually about an hour before I bake the first pie, so my guess is that the dough is 68-70F when I stretch it. The balls are probably closer to 2X on the average by the time they get baked.

I do both the bulk and ball rise in these Rubbermaid containers with the lids on.

Craig

[dellavecchia]

Below are pics of my most recent UPN clone effort. Thanks again to Craig for his work on this. This was from my home oven - the stone was heated for 1.5 hours, and then moved under the broiler for cooking. I am really anxious to get my recently acquired WFO set up, but for now I have really enjoyed working with this dough recipe and it's results under standard oven conditions. The taste of the crust is spectacular.

The pizza is a bianco with basil, sicilian sea salt, and my own mozzarella and ricotta I made yesterday. I like to let the mozzarella sit for a day or two before using it.

John

[dellavecchia]

..and a picture of the crust.

[bernie516]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

Following the steps in page one of this post i attempted this recipe for the UPN method dough... instead of using the Ischia starter however I took a piece of my "old dough" from the day before... here is what I worked out:

Preferment:

"00" flour - 252.4979g
water - 231.1684g
salt - .57192g
"old dough" - 25.24979g or (10%)

2nd mix:

"00" flour - 939.0921g
water - 531.4516g
salt - 47.08808g (seems high but i do about 4%)
"old dough" - 0

I used the same procedures listed...

1.  mix "old dough" or culture with some water, salt and flour (preferment) set at room temperature for 24 hours
2.  mix preferment with more water, salt and flour in mixer etc etc..

The outcome (which I have yet tried to bake) seems off.. the balls I formed were 250g each and after letting them rise for more than 4 hours (I had to work today so they rose about 16) at room temperature, the balls just kind of flattened out, they didn't "poof" up like they usually do when I use cake yeast..

Am I wrong to have used my "old dough" as a substitution for the culture?

Better yet-- if I did want to use "old dough" everytime I make fresh doughwhat would be the correct way to do so?  Regardless of the UPN method..?

[Matthew]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

Following the steps in page one of this post i attempted this recipe for the UPN method dough... instead of using the Ischia starter however I took a piece of my "old dough" from the day before... here is what I worked out:

Preferment:

"00" flour - 252.4979g
water - 231.1684g
salt - .57192g
"old dough" - 25.24979g or (10%)

2nd mix:

"00" flour - 939.0921g
water - 531.4516g
salt - 47.08808g (seems high but i do about 4%)
"old dough" - 0

I used the same procedures listed...

1.  mix "old dough" or culture with some water, salt and flour (preferment) set at room temperature for 24 hours
2.  mix preferment with more water, salt and flour in mixer etc etc..

The outcome (which I have yet tried to bake) seems off.. the balls I formed were 250g each and after letting them rise for more than 4 hours (I had to work today so they rose about 16) at room temperature, the balls just kind of flattened out, they didn't "poof" up like they usually do when I use cake yeast..

Am I wrong to have used my "old dough" as a substitution for the culture?

Better yet-- if I did want to use "old dough" everytime I make fresh doughwhat would be the correct way to do so?  Regardless of the UPN method..?

By the sounds of it, it looks like your "old dough" or "Pate Fermentee" has overfermented.  There are 2 types of firm preferments; a biga & a pate fermentee.  The main difference between the 2 is that a pate fermentee contains salt & therefore would require more yeast than a biga.  When using this method, you should cut off the required piece from the main batch of dough, place in bowl covered with plastic wrap & let it ferment for about an hour at room temperature.  You can then refrigerate the dough to be used at a later date.  It will last up to 3 days in the fridge depending on the amount of yeast.
If you wanted to make your own preferment, the formula that I use is from The Bread Baker's Apprentice.

Pate Fermentee:
Bread Flour     100%
Salt                 1.9%
IDY                 .55%
Water               65%

If you want to make a biga instead forego the salt, decrease the yeast to .49% & increase the water to 66.7%.

Good Luck,
Matt

[bernie516]

By the sounds of it, it looks like your "old dough" or "Pate Fermentee" has overfermented.  There are 2 types of firm preferments; a biga & a pate fermentee.  The main difference between the 2 is that a pate fermentee contains salt & therefore would require more yeast than a biga.  When using this method, you should cut off the required piece from the main batch of dough, place in bowl covered with plastic wrap & let it ferment for about an hour at room temperature.  You can then refrigerate the dough to be used at a later date.  It will last up to 3 days in the fridge depending on the amount of yeast.
If you wanted to make your own preferment, the formula that I use is from The Bread Baker's Apprentice.

Pate Fermentee:
Bread Flour     100%
Salt                 1.9%
IDY                 .55%
Water               65%

If you want to make a biga instead forego the salt, decrease the yeast to .49% & increase the water to 66.7%.

Good Luck,
Matt

Hey Matt,

Thanks for the response.  My original recipe for dough calls for .2% cake yeast and 4% salt.  So would that mean that I could just pinch off some of my current dough (let's say equal to 10% of what I'm making for the next day), let it rise covered @ room temperature for an hour, then add it to my mix for tomorrow?  Would I have to add more yeast, flour or water to it?  And how much exactly would I use for the next batch / how do I adjust my recipe to take into account the pate fermentee/piece of old dough that I'm adding?

Thanks!

[Matthew]

Hey Matt,

Thanks for the response.  My original recipe for dough calls for .2% cake yeast and 4% salt.  So would that mean that I could just pinch off some of my current dough (let's say equal to 10% of what I'm making for the next day), let it rise covered @ room temperature for an hour, then add it to my mix for tomorrow?  Would I have to add more yeast, flour or water to it?  And how much exactly would I use for the next batch / how do I adjust my recipe to take into account the pate fermentee/piece of old dough that I'm adding?

Thanks!

Give it a try & see.  You can always tweak it if you need to.  You do not add anything else to the pate fermentee.  Just remove it from the fridge about an hour prior to using it.  I just want to be clear that I use this method in bread baking & not pizza dough.  For pizza dough I use a sourdough starter;  the percentages that I'm giving you relate to bread baking & vary based on the type of bread being made.  Generally speaking, in baker's percentage, the range a pate fermentee that I use in bread is 100-168% & the final proofing after shaping is 3-3 1/2 hours.

Matt