Author Topic: Pretzel Crust?  (Read 26656 times)

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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2010, 01:19:07 AM »
Yeah I have seen too many times some businesses and restaurants go through the motions of what has been handed down to them, without really understanding just what they are doing. NaOH isn't THAT toxic, the real hazard is when it gets wet. Especially in your lungs, eye, mucous glands, etc. Sodium Hydroxide is a strong base and when it's dissolved in water, it feels like a soapy solution. You can rinse it off your skin and it takes a lot of water and rinsing to feel like it's fully neutralized. It's probably up on the hazard list with pool acid. It will dissolve your skin if given enough time, but it's also harder to rinse off.

In regard to Lye, also from Wikipedia -->  "Lye is used to cure many types of food, such as lutefisk, green olives, canned mandarin oranges, hominy, lye rolls, century eggs, pretzels, zongzi (Chinese glutinous rice dumplings), and Chinese noodles. In the United States, food-grade lye must meet the requirements outlined in the Food Chemicals Codex (FCC),[2] as prescribed by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[3] Lower grades of lye are commonly used as drain openers and oven cleaners and should not be used for food preparation.[3][4] Lye is a strong alkali, producing solutions of about pH 13.0."

Historically lye was potassium hydroxide (KOH) and the term "lye" is considered a "common chemical name" referring to a strong corrosive alkali. In other words "lye" is not a descriptive chemical name. It would be the equivalent of using the term "Dog" instead of german shepard, collie, bassett hound, etc. Anyway lye was traditionally made from potash and used to make soaps and bleaching compounds in antiquity. I think the reason they ban the use of this stuff primarily in food production is because it's better to use the actual chemical name, such as sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide. If you say "lye" it could mean either. Also in todays world, "Lye" is used as a drain cleaner and the purity is not food grade. When you consider the usage of the word "Lye", there is confusion on what it actually is you're using, plus there is a stigma attached to it that it's a lower purity chemical (drain cleaner).

One comment you made raised a big red flag with me. You mentioned it looks like pretzel salt. If you think this, so might others. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make sure you store it in an airtight container that is properly labeled! Personally, I store mine in a properly labeled container "CAUTION NaOH, DO NOT GET WET" also NOT in the kitchen. Reason being is if someone does mistake it for salt, they will be cooking a toxic meal and ingest it. You are now aware of the hazards, but its the friends and family that come over to cook and mistake it for salt that may be unsuspecting. Make sure people in your house know what it is.

If you read that other thread you'll see that the NaOH ruined my cookie sheets. What I do now is I use baking parchment. I make up the sodium hydroxide solution then I have a big bent flat spoon with holes in it. I put my pretzel on the spoon, give it a dip, raise it to drain the excess, then slide it off on to the paper. This has worked really well for me. You could probably also use a big wide slotted spatula. As for disposal, it's all about diluting it with lots of water. Remember to do it slowly, adding more and more water, then dump the bowl and run the water in the house a bit. I haven't had any issues with my plumbing but then again it isn't metal. Good luck and post pics when you make em!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 01:23:21 AM by DNA Dan »


Offline norma427

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2010, 09:03:41 AM »
DNA Dan,

Thank you for telling me all the precautions when using the NaOH.  I already have it away from my food and will label it.  I appreciate you spending the time to explain what lye is. 

When I was at the pretzel bakery I noted they did use parchment paper on the baking sheets, before they put them into the big Blodgett ovens.  I do have some stainless steel baking sheets and also a stainless steel slotted spoon, so I will use them.  Since I  recall how the other pretzel bakery in Ephrata had the candy kettle and the simmering solution, I am almost positive they are using the same sodium hydroxide.  Both of these pretzels bakeries have been operating for over 50 years.

Do you have any idea of how much of the sodium hydroxide solution I should use when I try to make pretzels? About how much sodium hydroxide to water ratio?

I will try basically the same recipe that I tried when making the pizza crust and pretzels at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10286.msg91547.html#msg91547 I might try replacing some of the KAAP with wheat flour.  Since that recipe had brown sugar, I will start from there.

There are many Auntie Anneís soft pretzels places around here, so when I go there again I will try and see what they do with their soft pretzels.  I am almost sure they wouldnít be using the
sodium hydroxide to dip their pretzels.  They have many teenagers working at these places and they are world wide.  There is another place at the flea market that also makes hand rolled soft pretzels.  If it is a rainy day sometime, I will try and get over there and see what they do.  I donít think they are using the sodium hydroxide.  Their building is only about 8'x10'.  It is located next to a funnel cake stand I used to own.  I know they used occident flour, but not the other ingredients.  I also know Amish people that run a soft pretzel stand at another market.  I will talk to them and see what they use.  I know they make some great soft pretzels that they roll around hot dogs or small sausages and also some with ham and cheese inside. Maybe there will be another solution.

I will post pictures when I try the soft pretzels.

Thanks,

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2010, 01:02:17 PM »
DNA Dan,

I talked to the Amish people that have a soft pretzel stand at another market.  They told me they just use baking soda, about 1 tablespoon in a bowl of warm water and then dunk the pretzel dough into the solution.  They also said to use All purpose flour and brown sugar. 
I will try these two methods when I make the soft pretzels.

Norma

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2010, 01:14:08 PM »

Do you have any idea of how much of the sodium hydroxide solution I should use when I try to make pretzels? About how much sodium hydroxide to water ratio?

I will try basically the same recipe that I tried when making the pizza crust and pretzels at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10286.msg91547.html#msg91547 I might try replacing some of the KAAP with wheat flour.  Since that recipe had brown sugar, I will start from there.


The recipe I have calls for a 3-4% NaOH solution. This means weight by weight or volume by volume. Since the NaOH is in solid form, it's easiest to just use 100 grams of water and 3-4 grams of sodium hydroxide(Weight by weight). You can scale this up if you need more volume. I try to use a glass bowl that is just a little bigger than my pretzels and deep. This way I don't have to make as much solution to fully dip the pretzels (otherwise you're just wasting the stuff). This also depends if you have a deep "dipper" or are using a spatula, it may be easier in a shallow pan, but you'll need more volume. I feel a litte safer handling it in a bowl that is not full to the rim. I don't think at this concentration it will etch glass, but I would do your dipping then dispose of it. Definitely would not store as a liquid.

The mix from Abel and Schafer has you make the dough, let it rise, roll out the preztels, then let them "retard" in the fridge uncovered so they dry out. This makes a dry outer surface and creates a dried skin, so when you dip in NaOH just prior to cooking, you get that outer chewy skin that pretzels are known for. The preztzels feel pretty "leathery" just prior to going in the dip. You may also find that any recipe that has brown sugar in it will be uncalled for with the sodium hydroxide. I think those recipes are more akin to Auntie Annie's where NaOH is not used and the sugar is needed to create a sweetness and brown surface. With the NaOH you'll get plenty of browness just from a regular dough. I think you'll find it produces a color, flavor and texture that is nearly impossible to duplicate with something else, which is why the technique continues to be used today. Good luck!

Offline norma427

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2010, 01:25:29 PM »
The recipe I have calls for a 3-4% NaOH solution. This means weight by weight or volume by volume. Since the NaOH is in solid form, it's easiest to just use 100 grams of water and 3-4 grams of sodium hydroxide(Weight by weight). You can scale this up if you need more volume. I try to use a glass bowl that is just a little bigger than my pretzels and deep. This way I don't have to make as much solution to fully dip the pretzels (otherwise you're just wasting the stuff). This also depends if you have a deep "dipper" or are using a spatula, it may be easier in a shallow pan, but you'll need more volume. I feel a litte safer handling it in a bowl that is not full to the rim. I don't think at this concentration it will etch glass, but I would do your dipping then dispose of it. Definitely would not store as a liquid.

The mix from Abel and Schafer has you make the dough, let it rise, roll out the preztels, then let them "retard" in the fridge uncovered so they dry out. This makes a dry outer surface and creates a dried skin, so when you dip in NaOH just prior to cooking, you get that outer chewy skin that pretzels are known for. The preztzels feel pretty "leathery" just prior to going in the dip. You may also find that any recipe that has brown sugar in it will be uncalled for with the sodium hydroxide. I think those recipes are more akin to Auntie Annie's where NaOH is not used and the sugar is needed to create a sweetness and brown surface. With the NaOH you'll get plenty of browness just from a regular dough. I think you'll find it produces a color, flavor and texture that is nearly impossible to duplicate with something else, which is why the technique continues to be used today. Good luck!

DNA Dan,

Thanks for all the additional information.  I guess when I try to make the pretzels I will make two doughs, since you have told me the brown sugar isn't necessary.  I want to try out the NaOH and the soda method. 

The pretzels at the pretzels bakery must contain some brown sugar, because they have 50 lb. bags in their shop.  Makes me wonder.   ::)

I have tasted the Amish peoples soft pretzels too, and although they are different both are great.  Guess I will be experimenting for awhile. 

Thanks again,

Norma

Offline GotRocks

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2010, 10:38:37 PM »
great thread, I always wondered how pretzels got their shine,

Sodium Hydroxide is commonly called lye, and yes it is some nasty stuff if handled improperly but as someone mentioned it is commonly used in the processing and preservation of many foods.

I work with quite a bit of sodium hydroxide when I am brewing biodiesel, I first mix it with methanol to dissolve it, and then add that mixture it into warm vegetable oil to make the glycerin drop out,  I retain the Methylated esters from that reaction and run my diesel equipment on the stuff, I also recover the excess methanol from my glycerine waste to re-use that for more fuel and I make soap from the glycerin i have left..
The heat generated from lye when mixed with water or alcohol is pretty amazing, think of having 16 gallons of highly flammable methanol boiling from the heat generated during the addition of the lye. It can be a little unsettling

Make sure you have eye protection, and an acid handy (such as vinegar) to neutralize the stuff if you get it on your skin. The phosphoric acid in Coca-Cola will work too if that is all you happen have at the time.
Do not mix a lye solution in an aluminum bowl or use aluminum utensils or pans with the stuff,  the reaction shreds aluminum creates a flammable gas in the process, if I remember correctly it is hydrogen?

Lye is also used in the production of methamphetamine, so there may be some legal paperwork required to get any amounts over 1 pound. Red Devil lye is no longer sold in hardware stores because of this. You may also be able to get Lye in proper amounts at a home soap-making and candle making supply shop.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2010, 12:09:46 AM »
I had some problems finding information at the Abel & Schafer website about Product specification for the Bavarian Pretzels mix, http://www.abelandschafer.com/index.ihtml  but after much searching came across this ingredient list.  Does anyone know what some of these items are like: Defatted Soy Flour,  DATEM, Enzymes, Azodicarbonamide or when I could find these in small quantities?

Bavarian Pretzel Mix      10 lb     
Water (+/-)    4,75 lb    
Compressed Yeast    0,25 lb    
Total weight :    15 lb    Bavarian Pretzel Mix      10 lb     
Water (+/-)    4,75 lb    
Compressed Yeast    0,25 lb    
Total weight :    15 lb       


Product name: Bavarian Pretzel Mix     Item Number: 22110
Packaging / Storage
Packaging:    Multi-walled bag.
Package Size:    50 lb
Palletizing:    5/8
Shelf life:    12
Storage:    Store in cool, dry, clean environment.
Nutritional Facts /
Calories:    360    
Calories from Fat:    40    
Total Fat:    4,5 g    7 %
Saturated Fat:    1 g    4 %
Cholesterol:    0 mg    0 %
Sodium:    790 mg    33 %
Total Carbohydrate:    67 g    22 %
Dietry Fiber:
   2 g    
Sugars:    2 g    
Protein:    14 g    
Vitamin A:    0 %    
Vitamin C:    15 %    
Calcium:    2 %    
Iron:    6 %    

Visual, texture, color:     White, dry powder blend.
Taste, aroma:    
Ingredients
Wheat Flour, Canola Oil, Salt, Wheat Gluten, Defatted Soy Flour, Dextrose, DATEM, Malted Barley Extract, Enzymes, Ascorbic Acid, Azodicarbonamide, L-Cysteine.
 
The Information contained in this publication is based on our own research and development work and is to the best of our knowledge reliable. Users should, however, conduct their tests to determine the suitability of our products for their own purposes. Statements contained herein should not be considered as a warranty of any kind, expressed or implied and no liability is accepted for the accuracy of this information.
Product description
This mix produces an exceptional Old World Bavarian pretzel. May be formed into traditional twists, rolls or sticks.

I want to try and make this Bavarian Pretzel as authentic as I can.

Thanks,

Norma
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 07:50:14 AM by norma427 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2010, 11:33:45 AM »
Does anyone know what some of these items are like: Defatted Soy Flour,  DATEM, Enzymes, Azodicarbonamide or when I could find these in small quantities?

Norma,

I think you will have a lot of difficulty trying to find the above ingredients in small quantities, although you should be able to find soy flour in some form and, if the enzymes are diastatic malt, you already have that if I recall correctly. The above ingredients, particularly, DATEM, azodicarobnamide, enzymes and L-cysteine (mentioned in another ingredients list in your post), are very common in doughs that are prepared in commissaries for final baking in supermarket and similar baking facilities. If you can identify such a commissary, you might be able to get small amounts for your purposes. However, you will have to do some research to determine how much of the ingredients to use (quantities are often stated by percent of flour weight).

DATEM (Diacetyl Tartaric (Acid) Ester of Monoglyceride) is an emulsifier that helps strengthen the dough. Enzymes might be diastatic malt or possibly fungal amylase and would be used to get increased amylase enzyme performance. Azodicarbonate is a flour bleaching agent but it is also a dough strengthening agent. FYI, it is banned in several countries (Europe and Australia). The L-cysteine  is also a dough strengthener.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 10:42:09 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2010, 12:12:17 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for the information.  I do remember seeing soy flour at our local store, but not Defatted Soy Flour.  Maybe by not using the other ingredients since they are mostly used in commissaries, I will be able to come up with a dough that is similar to the Bavarian Pretzel.  If this doesnít work out, then I will look for the other ingredients.  I really donít think I would look for the Azodicarbonate, since it is banned in some countries.

I made a dough last evening and will see how it works out today.  I used wheat flour, brown sugar, sea salt, IDY, vital wheat gluten with Vitamin C, diastatic malt powder, water and oil. 
Since using the wheat flour and the dough is light brown, I am not sure if this is the way to proceed, but if this doesnít work, I will change to All purpose flour and try something different.

Norma


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2010, 10:13:16 PM »
Norma,

That would certainly explain the elasticity of this dough. It's quite difficult to roll out to make the pretzel form. I think the commercial preparation is meant for it to go into a hopper and be extruded on a machine.

The list you found says 10lbs,  but the bag at the store is 50lbs. I think the upper portion of that list is a size they no longer sell, because the 50lb sack states you have to add water AND yeast. Further down it does state 50lbs. You a correct, their site states they have info on all these mixes but they are either missing or difficult to find. You can't really beat $37.70 plus shipping for a 50lb mix. I did the math assuming I can get about 200 pretzels from it which comes out to about 25 cents each, minus the NaOH, yeast, water, and energy to cook them. I went ahead and ordered another bag. I have to use this sodium hydroxide for something! I wish I could buy some of their dough improvers but they're just so expensive to "try out" on a few pizzas. It would be nice to experiment with the freezemaster for making and storing skins in the freezer. Count me in the contest, I'm going to try a pretzel pizza too!

EDIT: I see now, at the information page found here: http://www.komplet.com/USA/Produkt_Spez.a4d?Artikelnummer=0001-00040002P10080

The first portion of your list is the recipe for making a batch assuming you start with 10lbs of mix. That's a lot of pretzels for the home cook!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 10:28:15 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2010, 10:33:06 PM »
I just noticed here:

http://www.komplet.com/USA/Produkt_Spez.a4d?Artikelnummer=0001-00040002P10081

They have the info for the sweet pretzel mix. I recall at one time they were selling this retail but suddenly stopped, I assume it's licensed by places like Auntie Annies and the like. They would probably sell it if you were a commercial baker. Notice it has the brown sugar but also states it does not need to be dipped in NaOH. The recipe for these are much more simpler and probably more conducive for the home cook. It doesn't have all the fancy chemicals in it.

Offline norma427

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2010, 10:39:12 PM »
DNA Dan,

Now I really wonder about the pretzel dough since you just posted the ingredients for sweet pretzels dough.  The ingredients only state: Unbleached Wheat Flour, Light Brown Sugar, Corn Starch, Salt. How could that dough rise without some kind of yeast? 

You are right about using the NaOH for something.  I can understand where you are coming from, when saying the dough improver would be too expensive, just to try them out.  If I canít come up with a decent pretzel recipe, then I might look for some dough improver. 

That's great, you are also going to try a pizza crust with pretzel dough.  ;D I guess the dough would have to be par-baked. Do you have any ideas on this.
I tried the wheat pretzels today. I still have to work on skills of being a pretzel roller and determine how thin I have to make them. One batch was dipped in a solution of 6 teaspoons of baking soda to 1 qt. of water, that I kept simmering on the stove. The other batch was dipped into a solution of 3 grams NaOH to 100 grams of water. I put the NaOH and water in a pyrex deep pie pan and used stainless steel utensils. The pretzels were both baked on parchment paper. I didnít have any problems using the NaOH.  I should be able to experiment a lot with the amount of NaOH the soft pretzel man gave me.

The pretzels using the NaOH did get darker, but I might need to do something different to try and get them to shine. Do you have any idea what I might be doing wrong?

If I have time this evening, I am going to mix another batch and use All Purpose flour and be able to see and taste what the difference is using All purpose flour. The last batch of pretzels and the pizza crust were made with All purpose flour.  Maybe if that doesnít work I will try bread flour.

Picture 1 dough
Picture 2 finished soft pretzels-top soda solution-bottom NaOH solution
Picture 3 NaOH pretzel

Norma

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2010, 11:40:36 PM »
For the pretzel crust I see two possiblities:

1) Parbake as you mentioned.
2) Brush the exposed crust edge with NaOH. So you'd have a soft center with a pretzel edge. I'd even probably sprinkle on a little pretzel salt too  :chef:

In regard to your photos, I have to say those are the best whole wheat pretzels I have seen. I don't know if it's the protein or gluten content but in my hands doughs made using whole wheat flour seem to lack a lot of extensibility (I notice your pretzels have a cracked surface.). Perhaps there isn't as much gluten development as you would get from an enriched white flour.

Anyway, I think your dough looks very wet. Was this prior to rolling it? Was it this wet going into the dip? If the dough is really wet it will dilute the NaOH on the surface reducing it's effectiveness. Also I checked the abel and schafer site and they say to use 4% Sodum Hydroxide solution. Did you dry the pretzels out prior to dipping? I think this is one of the tricks to make sure that the 4% solution fully interacts with the dough. I have seen the smooth leather surface of the pretzels become somewhat pitted and dissolved looking after dipping. There should be a difference in the surface texture after you dip them.

In term of thickness, I shoot for something about 1/2" in diameter.

BTW, Presentation is easy to fix, how did they taste??

« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 11:45:46 PM by DNA Dan »

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2010, 12:53:57 AM »
DNA Dan,

As you mentioned, your ideas for a pretzel crust could work either way.  :chef: I first need to get my dough formula right, before I try a pretzel pizza crust and then decide how to use the NaOH. 

Thanks for saying the whole wheat pretzels looked good.  I donít know if the added vital wheat gluten with vitamin C had anything to do with adding gluten to the whole wheat, but I can imagine it did.  I added 2 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten to the same formula I made before.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10286.msg91547.html#msg91547                                                               
I  am not an expert on knowing how much added vital wheat gluten would be needed for wheat flour to bring it up to All purpose flour.                                                                             

I also added 2 cups of water to this recent formula.  I did add 1 Ĺ cups of water to the batch above, but then added a little more water, because the formula was too dry in my opinion.  Maybe I added a little to much water this for this recent batch.  This picture of the dough was prior to rolling it out.  I noticed that the first pretzels I rolled were a little harder to roll out.  The dough was then left out at room temperature until I rolled out the pretzels for the NaOH.  These were better to roll out, so maybe I would need to let the dough warm up more.  The first batch was a little moist going into the baking soda solution.  The second batch was left to sit out for about 20 minutes and wasnít as moist.  I didnít let the pretzels really dry out, so that could have been another step that I did wrong.  I also will need to up the NaOH solution to 4%.  My pretzels were much thicker than Ĺ inch when I was finished rolling them. Will try and roll them out thinner the next time. 

The whole wheat pretzels did taste good in my opinion. They were soft inside.

Thanks for your help,  :)

Norma

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2010, 08:25:44 PM »
Try rolling out the pretzel form, (1/2" diameter if you can), then put them on a cooling rack of sorts and place them in the refrigerator for 1 hour. The main point of doing this is to retard the dough so the dough doesn't get all puffy. If it did, when you manipulate the dip it would deflate the dough. So the retardation sort of keeps the yeast in a slow growing state, helps develop the flavor profile a bit, and also dries out the skin to prepare it for the dip.  When I do this, the pretzels aren't puffy at all going into the oven, they puff up immediately while cooking.

I am no expert on wheat gluten and the like. I just know that everytime I make a whole wheat dough, it's nearly impossible to get it to windowpane. Probably more lack of experience than anything.

Offline norma427

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2010, 08:53:59 PM »
Try rolling out the pretzel form, (1/2" diameter if you can), then put them on a cooling rack of sorts and place them in the refrigerator for 1 hour. The main point of doing this is to retard the dough so the dough doesn't get all puffy. If it did, when you manipulate the dip it would deflate the dough. So the retardation sort of keeps the yeast in a slow growing state, helps develop the flavor profile a bit, and also dries out the skin to prepare it for the dip.  When I do this, the pretzels aren't puffy at all going into the oven, they puff up immediately while cooking.

I am no expert on wheat gluten and the like. I just know that everytime I make a whole wheat dough, it's nearly impossible to get it to windowpane. Probably more lack of experience than anything.

DNA Dan,

Thanks for the help, again.  :) I did make some pretzels this evening and didn't put them in to the refrigerator.  I did let them proof on the table for 45 minutes.  So now I know why I had some much trouble dipping the pretzels in the NaOH.   :-D  I did also make a pizza tonight out of the pretzel dough because I think the dough was too hydrated for pretzels.  The pizza was just finished.  I will post more tonight on the pretzels and pizza.

Thanks,

Norma

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2010, 10:11:21 PM »
I tried something different with the pretzel pizza crust. Delicious Dandelion on a pretzel pizza.. Before you see blooms on the dandelion, you need to harvest it.  They have to be fresh and young greens. Otherwise they will be bitter. I took my trusty dandelion digger out today and harvested some.

The dough for the pretzel crust was made last evening.  I used KAAP flour.  All the other ingredients were the same except, I used 1 3/4 cups of water instead of two cups.  I really donít understand what happened, but the dough was too moist, so I added another Ĺ cup of flour.  The dough was left in the refrigerator for 15 hours.  I believe the dough was still to moist for the pretzels, but it was fine for the pretzel pizza.

I still need to have more practice in rolling the pretzels.  Mine are so uneven.  Some were big and some were small.  I did up the NaOH to 4 %.  I didnít let the rolled pretzels proof in the refrigerator. 

I then made a pretzel crust pizza.  I dough really seemed highly hydrated.  I opened the dough and placed it on parchment paper on the peel.  Then I brushed the edges with NaOH and sprinkled with pretzel salt.  The pretzel pizza was baked on the stone with the parchment paper for 5 minutes.  Then transferred to just the stone.

The pretzel pizza was dressed with Litíl Smokies smoked sausage, proscoitto, chives, and parsley, basil and 1 clove of garlic that I had sauteed after the cheese. First the pie was dressed with mozzarella, Asiago, and crumbled Gorgonzola cheese.  Then the meat and herb topping were added.  I smeared some Grey Poupon Horseradish Mustard on the meat.  When the pie came out of the oven after 5 minutes, I added Dandelion that had been microwaved for one minute with olive oil and oregano. Then back in the oven to finish baking

Norma
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 10:18:45 PM by norma427 »


Offline norma427

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2010, 10:12:45 PM »
more pictures

Norma

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2010, 10:14:27 PM »
rest of pictures

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2010, 03:17:24 PM »
Awesome job! You're really way out there on toppings more so than myself. I tend to stick to the more mundane ones. The pizza looks really cool! How did it taste? The surface of the preztels look much better with the white flour. I don't see any really cracking of the skin going on.

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2010, 04:54:51 PM »
Awesome job! You're really way out there on toppings more so than myself. I tend to stick to the more mundane ones. The pizza looks really cool! How did it taste? The surface of the preztels look much better with the white flour. I don't see any really cracking of the skin going on.

DNA Dan,

As for the toppings, I was just thinking what would go well with a pretzel crust.  I have eaten the pretzels wrapped in little sausages, some with ham and cheese inside, and some wrapped in hot dogs.  I also have also eaten the pretzels with mustard many times.  I picked the three cheese blend to try something different and since I am going to make dandelion salad tonight with hot bacon sweet and sour dressing, I decided to use some of the dandelion to give the pizza some color.

In my opinion the pretzel crust pizza was better than the pretzels. In all the pizzas I have tried so far this ranks up there with the best in terms of taste.  I think the pretzel dough still needs to come down in hydration for the pretzels, but the pretzels were good.  Now, which do I want to make again, pretzels or pretzel crust pizza.  ::)

Your idea of brushing the crust with NaOH was a great!  It worked out well.  ;D  You are right about the white flour.  The pretzels did taste better with white flour and they didn't crack.

I am anxious for you to try out your pretzel pizza.  :)

Norma

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2010, 07:05:22 PM »
I am waiting for my 50# sack from abelandschafer. I know it's cheating but I just really love the authenticity of that mix. I see where you're heading with the toppings and I actually haven't given it much thought. I have seen pretzel sticks with "pizza sauce" as a dip, but these are usually a marinara type heavily spiced dipping sauce. I love mustard, but I can't fathom what to do with it. Perhaps a layer of mustard, followed by diced ham and shredded swiss? Onions and/or garlic sound like they would do well too. Another possiblity is some sort of cheddar spread like cheese whiz. A local pretzel place by me used to dip them in a cheese sauce not unlike cheese whiz but more of an aged cheddar flavor. They also used a cream cheese style spread, powder sugar, or a chocolate sauce just to name a few ideas. Little sausages is a good one! Now I see how you came to that decision!

Did you find the center to be overly wet compared to the edge? Did you cook it until just the edge was brown or until the center was done? Seems like a delicate balance here since this dough is not typically cooked with toppings on it.

I am thinking of making some pretzel hot dog buns too. A local hot dog chaing by us, Weinerschitzel has a hot dog they sell in a bun like this. No salt, just a twisted pretzel hot dog bun.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 07:07:19 PM by DNA Dan »

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2010, 07:27:24 PM »
DNA Dan,

Your ideas sound great.  :)  The pretzel crust just was baked like a regular pizza crust.  Since the dough was highly hydrated and sticky, I thought I would just go for making a pretzel pizza out of this most recent dough.  The center was not wet as you can see on the pictures.  The pizza was baked until the bottom was brown. 

Here is a recipe I found on images under Google.  I might try that the next time.  I also copied these pictures off of images.  Is this the kind of pretzels hot dogs you are talking about?

PRETZEL DOGS

--11 ounces all purpose flour
--2 1/4 teaspoons yeast (that's 1 packet)
--1 teaspoon sugar
--1/2 teaspoon salt
--7-8 ounces of warm water

--1/2 cup warm water
--2 teaspoons sugar

--8 hot dogs of your choice

--2 tablespoons melted butter
--Pretzel salt, kosher salt or other coarse salt

In a bowl, combine flour, yeast, sugar and salt and stir to combine.  Beat in the water slowly until it forms a rough ball.  You'll want to go slow because you'll find in the winter you'll probably need the greater amount of water, in the summer the lesser, etc.

Knead for about 5 minutes by hand or mixer until it's a soft ball.  If you are mixing by hand, do NOT add additional flour.  Spray your counter top lightly with spray oil if you find the dough sticking.  Otherwise, simply knead with sure quick movements.  When properly kneaded it shouldn't be sticky to the touch but instead will be quite smooth and relaxed.  It should pass the windowpane test.

Put the dough in a lightly greased bowl, turn once to coat and cover with a piece of plastic wrap.  Let it rise for 30 minutes.  Meanwhile, preheat the oven to 500.  Make a slit lengthwise down each hot dog allowing the knife to slice about a third of the way through.

On a lightly greased surface, turn out the dough and divide into 8 equal pieces.  Allow it to rest for 5 minutes, uncovered.  Then, roll out each piece into a long rope about 25 inches or so and wrap around a hot dog.  The dough will cover the dog from end to end.  Quickly dip the entire thing in the 1/2 cup water mixed with sugar, place the dog on the baking sheet and sprinkle with salt. Be sure your ends of dough are tucked under the dog.   Repeat for remaining 7 dogs.  Let all the dogs rest for 10 minutes.

Bake the dogs for about 8-10 minutes or until they are golden brown.  Brush the dogs with the butter.  It will seem like a lot of butter but really it's not a lot at all and it IS all needed to keep your pretzel delicious and soft.  Serve immediately.

My file was too large with the pictures..had to resize them..lol

Norma

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2010, 03:29:02 AM »
Those look fantastic!!! Pass the mustard! :)
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.

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Re: Pretzel Crust?
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2010, 07:05:10 AM »
I am a molecular biologist and use chemicals all day long in the lab.

DNA Dan,

I was reading some articles about using nanomaterials in food.  Since you are a molecular biologist, do you know anything about what they might be putting in our food now or in the future?  Part of one of the articles I read said about spraying nanomaterial on loaves of bread to make them shiny.  My guess would be maybe pretzels someday.

This is the article and the parts where you can read more.             

http://www.aolnews.com/category/nanotech/

Bread makers are spraying nanomaterials on their loaves "to make them shinier and help them keep microbe-free longer.

A report issued last month by the Government Accountability Office denounced the enormous loophole that the FDA has permitted through the GRAS classification. And the GAO investigators also echoed the concerns of consumer and food safety activists who argue that giving nanomaterials the GRAS free pass is perilous.

Amid that uncertainty, calls for safety analysis are growing.

"Testing must always be done," says food regulatory consultant George Burdock, a toxicologist and the head of the Burdock Group. "Because if it's nanosized, its chemical properties will most assuredly be different and so might the biological impact."

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Norma


 

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