Pretzel Crust?

[norma427]

Try rolling out the pretzel form, (1/2" diameter if you can), then put them on a cooling rack of sorts and place them in the refrigerator for 1 hour. The main point of doing this is to retard the dough so the dough doesn't get all puffy. If it did, when you manipulate the dip it would deflate the dough. So the retardation sort of keeps the yeast in a slow growing state, helps develop the flavor profile a bit, and also dries out the skin to prepare it for the dip.  When I do this, the pretzels aren't puffy at all going into the oven, they puff up immediately while cooking.

I am no expert on wheat gluten and the like. I just know that everytime I make a whole wheat dough, it's nearly impossible to get it to windowpane. Probably more lack of experience than anything.

DNA Dan,

Thanks for the help, again.  I did make some pretzels this evening and didn't put them in to the refrigerator.  I did let them proof on the table for 45 minutes.  So now I know why I had some much trouble dipping the pretzels in the NaOH.     I did also make a pizza tonight out of the pretzel dough because I think the dough was too hydrated for pretzels.  The pizza was just finished.  I will post more tonight on the pretzels and pizza.

Thanks,

Norma

[norma427]

I tried something different with the pretzel pizza crust. Delicious Dandelion on a pretzel pizza.. Before you see blooms on the dandelion, you need to harvest it.  They have to be fresh and young greens. Otherwise they will be bitter. I took my trusty dandelion digger out today and harvested some.

The dough for the pretzel crust was made last evening.  I used KAAP flour.  All the other ingredients were the same except, I used 1 3/4 cups of water instead of two cups.  I really don’t understand what happened, but the dough was too moist, so I added another ½ cup of flour.  The dough was left in the refrigerator for 15 hours.  I believe the dough was still to moist for the pretzels, but it was fine for the pretzel pizza.

I still need to have more practice in rolling the pretzels.  Mine are so uneven.  Some were big and some were small.  I did up the NaOH to 4 %.  I didn’t let the rolled pretzels proof in the refrigerator. 

I then made a pretzel crust pizza.  I dough really seemed highly hydrated.  I opened the dough and placed it on parchment paper on the peel.  Then I brushed the edges with NaOH and sprinkled with pretzel salt.  The pretzel pizza was baked on the stone with the parchment paper for 5 minutes.  Then transferred to just the stone.

The pretzel pizza was dressed with Lit’l Smokies smoked sausage, proscoitto, chives, and parsley, basil and 1 clove of garlic that I had sauteed after the cheese. First the pie was dressed with mozzarella, Asiago, and crumbled Gorgonzola cheese.  Then the meat and herb topping were added.  I smeared some Grey Poupon Horseradish Mustard on the meat.  When the pie came out of the oven after 5 minutes, I added Dandelion that had been microwaved for one minute with olive oil and oregano. Then back in the oven to finish baking

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

rest of pictures

Norma

[DNA Dan]

Awesome job! You're really way out there on toppings more so than myself. I tend to stick to the more mundane ones. The pizza looks really cool! How did it taste? The surface of the preztels look much better with the white flour. I don't see any really cracking of the skin going on.

[norma427]

Awesome job! You're really way out there on toppings more so than myself. I tend to stick to the more mundane ones. The pizza looks really cool! How did it taste? The surface of the preztels look much better with the white flour. I don't see any really cracking of the skin going on.

DNA Dan,

As for the toppings, I was just thinking what would go well with a pretzel crust.  I have eaten the pretzels wrapped in little sausages, some with ham and cheese inside, and some wrapped in hot dogs.  I also have also eaten the pretzels with mustard many times.  I picked the three cheese blend to try something different and since I am going to make dandelion salad tonight with hot bacon sweet and sour dressing, I decided to use some of the dandelion to give the pizza some color.

In my opinion the pretzel crust pizza was better than the pretzels. In all the pizzas I have tried so far this ranks up there with the best in terms of taste.  I think the pretzel dough still needs to come down in hydration for the pretzels, but the pretzels were good.  Now, which do I want to make again, pretzels or pretzel crust pizza. 

Your idea of brushing the crust with NaOH was a great!  It worked out well.    You are right about the white flour.  The pretzels did taste better with white flour and they didn't crack.

I am anxious for you to try out your pretzel pizza. 

Norma

[DNA Dan]

I am waiting for my 50# sack from abelandschafer. I know it's cheating but I just really love the authenticity of that mix. I see where you're heading with the toppings and I actually haven't given it much thought. I have seen pretzel sticks with "pizza sauce" as a dip, but these are usually a marinara type heavily spiced dipping sauce. I love mustard, but I can't fathom what to do with it. Perhaps a layer of mustard, followed by diced ham and shredded swiss? Onions and/or garlic sound like they would do well too. Another possiblity is some sort of cheddar spread like cheese whiz. A local pretzel place by me used to dip them in a cheese sauce not unlike cheese whiz but more of an aged cheddar flavor. They also used a cream cheese style spread, powder sugar, or a chocolate sauce just to name a few ideas. Little sausages is a good one! Now I see how you came to that decision!

Did you find the center to be overly wet compared to the edge? Did you cook it until just the edge was brown or until the center was done? Seems like a delicate balance here since this dough is not typically cooked with toppings on it.

I am thinking of making some pretzel hot dog buns too. A local hot dog chaing by us, Weinerschitzel has a hot dog they sell in a bun like this. No salt, just a twisted pretzel hot dog bun.

[norma427]

DNA Dan,

Your ideas sound great.    The pretzel crust just was baked like a regular pizza crust.  Since the dough was highly hydrated and sticky, I thought I would just go for making a pretzel pizza out of this most recent dough.  The center was not wet as you can see on the pictures.  The pizza was baked until the bottom was brown. 

Here is a recipe I found on images under Google.  I might try that the next time.  I also copied these pictures off of images.  Is this the kind of pretzels hot dogs you are talking about?

PRETZEL DOGS

--11 ounces all purpose flour
--2 1/4 teaspoons yeast (that's 1 packet)
--1 teaspoon sugar
--1/2 teaspoon salt
--7-8 ounces of warm water

--1/2 cup warm water
--2 teaspoons sugar

--8 hot dogs of your choice

--2 tablespoons melted butter
--Pretzel salt, kosher salt or other coarse salt

In a bowl, combine flour, yeast, sugar and salt and stir to combine.  Beat in the water slowly until it forms a rough ball.  You'll want to go slow because you'll find in the winter you'll probably need the greater amount of water, in the summer the lesser, etc.

Knead for about 5 minutes by hand or mixer until it's a soft ball.  If you are mixing by hand, do NOT add additional flour.  Spray your counter top lightly with spray oil if you find the dough sticking.  Otherwise, simply knead with sure quick movements.  When properly kneaded it shouldn't be sticky to the touch but instead will be quite smooth and relaxed.  It should pass the windowpane test.

Put the dough in a lightly greased bowl, turn once to coat and cover with a piece of plastic wrap.  Let it rise for 30 minutes.  Meanwhile, preheat the oven to 500.  Make a slit lengthwise down each hot dog allowing the knife to slice about a third of the way through.

On a lightly greased surface, turn out the dough and divide into 8 equal pieces.  Allow it to rest for 5 minutes, uncovered.  Then, roll out each piece into a long rope about 25 inches or so and wrap around a hot dog.  The dough will cover the dog from end to end.  Quickly dip the entire thing in the 1/2 cup water mixed with sugar, place the dog on the baking sheet and sprinkle with salt. Be sure your ends of dough are tucked under the dog.   Repeat for remaining 7 dogs.  Let all the dogs rest for 10 minutes.

Bake the dogs for about 8-10 minutes or until they are golden brown.  Brush the dogs with the butter.  It will seem like a lot of butter but really it's not a lot at all and it IS all needed to keep your pretzel delicious and soft.  Serve immediately.

My file was too large with the pictures..had to resize them..lol

Norma

[Trinity]

Those look fantastic!!! Pass the mustard!

[norma427]

I am a molecular biologist and use chemicals all day long in the lab.

DNA Dan,

I was reading some articles about using nanomaterials in food.  Since you are a molecular biologist, do you know anything about what they might be putting in our food now or in the future?  Part of one of the articles I read said about spraying nanomaterial on loaves of bread to make them shiny.  My guess would be maybe pretzels someday.

This is the article and the parts where you can read more.             

http://www.aolnews.com/category/nanotech/

Bread makers are spraying nanomaterials on their loaves "to make them shinier and help them keep microbe-free longer.

A report issued last month by the Government Accountability Office denounced the enormous loophole that the FDA has permitted through the GRAS classification. And the GAO investigators also echoed the concerns of consumer and food safety activists who argue that giving nanomaterials the GRAS free pass is perilous.

Amid that uncertainty, calls for safety analysis are growing.

"Testing must always be done," says food regulatory consultant George Burdock, a toxicologist and the head of the Burdock Group. "Because if it's nanosized, its chemical properties will most assuredly be different and so might the biological impact."

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Norma

[DNA Dan]

DNA Dan,

I was reading some articles about using nanomaterials in food.  Since you are a molecular biologist, do you know anything about what they might be putting in our food now or in the future?  Part of one of the articles I read said about spraying nanomaterial on loaves of bread to make them shiny.  My guess would be maybe pretzels someday.

This is the article and the parts where you can read more.             

http://www.aolnews.com/category/nanotech/

Bread makers are spraying nanomaterials on their loaves "to make them shinier and help them keep microbe-free longer.

A report issued last month by the Government Accountability Office denounced the enormous loophole that the FDA has permitted through the GRAS classification. And the GAO investigators also echoed the concerns of consumer and food safety activists who argue that giving nanomaterials the GRAS free pass is perilous.

Amid that uncertainty, calls for safety analysis are growing.

"Testing must always be done," says food regulatory consultant George Burdock, a toxicologist and the head of the Burdock Group. "Because if it's nanosized, its chemical properties will most assuredly be different and so might the biological impact."

I don't want to hijack the thread topic, however I will just say that most of these technologies are geared toward improving the process or enhancing the efficacy of chemicals already used. In the example they gave about making a bread loaf "shiny" you can imagine only the molecules actually touching the bread are going to have any effect. This amounts to basically a single layer of atoms on the loaf. So what some of the nanotechnologies promise to deliver are ways to microaerosolize chemicals so they can achieve just a single layer of atoms, and they don't have to use as much raw materials to produce the same desired effect. Another example would be getting a higher growth rate out of the yeast so you can start a loaf with a just a few yeast cells. I see this more as benefitting manufacturers more than anything else. In terms of using banned chemicals in smaller quantities than what is allowed by law, I am pretty sure most of the "bad" chemicals are banned in any concentration. The ones that have a minimum allowance are typically chemicals used in the process that may be toxic only in higher doses when compared to mouse models. I really dislike articles like this because they are "sensationalist" and hype up a process or illegal loophole that sounds like everyone's doing it and it's bad for you. Like all things in our environment there are much more worse things you can encounter. Breathing polluted air is probably worse for you than eating a nano-produced bread loaf. These types of articles fail to put the chemical hazard in perspective of the real world and what the average person encounters on a daily basis.

[norma427]

I don't want to hijack the thread topic, however I will just say that most of these technologies are geared toward improving the process or enhancing the efficacy of chemicals already used. In the example they gave about making a bread loaf "shiny" you can imagine only the molecules actually touching the bread are going to have any effect. This amounts to basically a single layer of atoms on the loaf. So what some of the nanotechnologies promise to deliver are ways to microaerosolize chemicals so they can achieve just a single layer of atoms, and they don't have to use as much raw materials to produce the same desired effect. Another example would be getting a higher growth rate out of the yeast so you can start a loaf with a just a few yeast cells. I see this more as benefitting manufacturers more than anything else. In terms of using banned chemicals in smaller quantities than what is allowed by law, I am pretty sure most of the "bad" chemicals are banned in any concentration. The ones that have a minimum allowance are typically chemicals used in the process that may be toxic only in higher doses when compared to mouse models. I really dislike articles like this because they are "sensationalist" and hype up a process or illegal loophole that sounds like everyone's doing it and it's bad for you. Like all things in our environment there are much more worse things you can encounter. Breathing polluted air is probably worse for you than eating a nano-produced bread loaf. These types of articles fail to put the chemical hazard in perspective of the real world and what the average person encounters on a daily basis.

DNA Dan,

I didn’t want to take this thread off-topic either, but wanted to understand more how modern technology is changing the way foods are produced. I am only an average everyday person and don’t understand all this technical information.  When I read how bread was being made shiny with these nanomaterials, it made me wonder how this is done.  I then was curious about pretzels and if some day they might do the same thing to make them shiny.

Your explanations are excellent. 

Thanks,

Norma

[DNA Dan]

Well I have good news and bad news. The good news is I am stuffed to my gills on pretzel pizza. The bad news is the mix from A&S seems like it was reformulated. The pretzels I made had a very light texture, which I remember them being more dense and chewy. Also the surface of the pretzels did not gloss over as much nor get super brown. I had to cook them a little longer to get some decent browning. Anyway the taste was still great, just not as I remember it from a few years back. It's still a great deal. I made a 5 lb batch which yielded about 25 pretzels and a 14 oz pizza topped with mustard, mozzarella and ham bits. I was surprised the mustard didn't taste awkward on the dough really. I used regular French's but a more spicy dijon brand may have been better. The pie tasted like something you would get in France. Almost like a ham and cheese sandwich or something. Unconventional yet good.

Here are some pics of the festivities. I don't know how to insert text between photos, so I'll let the photos speak for themselves. Norma, I tried to take some before and after dipping closeups so you can see the difference in texture I was talking about before. Enjoy! -

[DNA Dan]

More photos

[DNA Dan]

And some of the pizza!

[norma427]

Well I have good news and bad news. The good news is I am stuffed to my gills on pretzel pizza. The bad news is the mix from A&S seems like it was reformulated. The pretzels I made had a very light texture, which I remember them being more dense and chewy. Also the surface of the pretzels did not gloss over as much nor get super brown. I had to cook them a little longer to get some decent browning. Anyway the taste was still great, just not as I remember it from a few years back. It's still a great deal. I made a 5 lb batch which yielded about 25 pretzels and a 14 oz pizza topped with mustard, mozzarella and ham bits. I was surprised the mustard didn't taste awkward on the dough really. I used regular French's but a more spicy dijon brand may have been better. The pie tasted like something you would get in France. Almost like a ham and cheese sandwich or something. Unconventional yet good.

Here are some pics of the festivities. I don't know how to insert text between photos, so I'll let the photos speak for themselves. Norma, I tried to take some before and after dipping closeups so you can see the difference in texture I was talking about before. Enjoy! -

DNA Dan,

Wow..the pretzels and pizza look great!    Your pretzels look so perfectly formed.  How long did you let your pretzels in the NaOH? 

Your choice of topping was good.  I wish I could have tasted the pretzels and pizza.  I also was surprised that the mustard I used went well with the pretzel pizza. 

After seeing your pictures maybe more people will try a pretzel pizza.  I don't really think they would need the NaOH.  The baking soda method would work okay if just making a pretzel pizza.  What are your thoughts on this?

In hearing how you might think the pretzel formula might have changed, it just sounds like some pizzas that were good before and now they changed something so they aren't as good. 

I really enjoyed looking at your pictures and description on how you made both.  I can believe you are now stuffed. 

Thanks for posting on your experiences on the festivities, 

Norma

[DNA Dan]

I give the dip about 20-30 seconds. It's certainly more than just a quick dip. I also make sure I float it off the spoon a bit because otherwise when you go to transfer it to the baking paper it doesn't slide off the spoon too easily.

So on the instructions for this mix there is a "sweet pretzel recipe".  They add brown sugar and skip the lye method. They're still using the mix in the recipe, just in a different manner. This could explain why they no longer sell the sweet pretzel variety and why this mix seemed different. It seems to be some hybrid product that they combined from the two ways of making two different pretzels.

The hot baking soda dip is certainly a viable alternative to NaOH, but will not produce the exact same effect that the purists are looking for. I'll have to try the sweet pretzel variety next. Auntie Annie's sure does have a lot of different topping for their pretzels.

[norma427]

I give the dip about 20-30 seconds. It's certainly more than just a quick dip. I also make sure I float it off the spoon a bit because otherwise when you go to transfer it to the baking paper it doesn't slide off the spoon too easily.

So on the instructions for this mix there is a "sweet pretzel recipe".  They add brown sugar and skip the lye method. They're still using the mix in the recipe, just in a different manner. This could explain why they no longer sell the sweet pretzel variety and why this mix seemed different. It seems to be some hybrid product that they combined from the two ways of making two different pretzels.

The hot baking soda dip is certainly a viable alternative to NaOH, but will not produce the exact same effect that the purists are looking for. I'll have to try the sweet pretzel variety next. Auntie Annie's sure does have a lot of different topping for their pretzels.

DNA Dan,

Thanks for you information about the difference in the new pretzel mix you received.  The sweet pretzel does sounds a lot like Annie Anne's soft pretzels and you are right about their many toppings.

I will also try another pizza pretzel crust in the next few weeks. 

I appreciate you telling me how long to dip the pretzels in the NaOH. 

Thanks,

Norma

[hotsawce]

The pretzel crust is interesting;

I was experimenting, and I've come to put salt on the outside rim of my crust for flavor, but used a coarse sea salt. Reminded me of a "pretzel" crust. I wouldn't use course again...likely fine.

Pretzels are great, and a pretzel crust was interesting, but I don't think I like the concentrated bursts of salty flavor.

[norma427]

Here are a few articles about pretzels in the New York Times if anyone is interested.  It talks about making soft pretzels the old-fashioned way.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/dining/26pretzel.html

Bavarian-Style Soft Pretzels (Laugenbrezeln)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/dining/26pretzelrex1.html

Another how to make German style sweet mustard.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/dining/26pretzelrex2.html

Norma