Author Topic: My first attempt  (Read 4599 times)

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Offline SWO

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My first attempt
« on: February 18, 2010, 09:31:23 PM »
The good:

When I made the dough it was very workable. It came out nice and smooth and was easy to stretch.

I have a stone that I preheated for about 50 minutes at 550 degrees. The crust had a nice crispy texture on the bottom.

The flavor was actually pretty good. My family enjoyed the pizza and didn't threaten to kick me out of the house if I made another. Their only comment was "too much sauce and not enough cheese".

The bad:

This was going to be a cheese & pepperoni pizza, but my son ate 1/2 lb of pepperoni over the last couple of days. I didn't know until I was topping the pizza.

The yeast doubled in volume before I added it to the flour, but the dough didn't rise very much, even after 1.5 hours covered in an unlit gas oven. After baking, it rose quite a bit. The dough was kind of heavy though. Two pieces filled me up.

I don't have a peel, so I make the pizza on the glass cutting board you can see in the picture. I put some flour on it beforehand and the pie slid right off onto my stone.

For my first attempt, I just used some $1.88 All Purpose flour from Aldi's. I may try some KABF next time just to see the difference.

I know I have a lot of work to do to improve, but overall it was a good experience.


Offline Bob1

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 09:48:06 PM »
SWO,
Great start, I always get a few comments about something also.  Sometimes they come from me.  Did you mix the dough and use it after a 1.5 hour rise?  What was your recipe?  I think you will find a nice difference with the KABF especially if you refrigerate the dough ball over a night or few.

Bob

Offline SWO

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 10:17:42 PM »
Hi Bob,

I don't have a scale yet, so I measure by volume.  Here's what I used

1 packet of ADY (1/4oz) mixed with 1 tsp sugar and 1/4 cup of 103 degree water and allowed to double in volume.
2 tsp salt
4 3/4 cups of AP flour
2 tbs EV olive oil

I let it rise for 1. 5 hours, punched it down and then let it sit for about another hour. I then stretched it, topped it and put it in the oven.

I only have a 15" diameter stone, so I'm guessing I used too much flour for my first attempt. The next time, I'll cut back and stretch my dough out more.

SWO


Offline Bob1

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 11:48:29 PM »
SWO,
It looks like you used 1/4 cup of water to proof the yeast, how much did you use with the flour?

Thanks,

Bob

scott123

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 08:13:45 AM »
I find it helps, if you're going to have pepperoni around for more than a day, to buy a portion for the pizza and another portion for family members to nibble on :)

A 15" stone is a bit of a handicap.  In order to prevent the cheese from bubbling over the edge, you generally need the same size rim for a small pie as you do for a large one.  This makes smaller pies pretty bready experiences. With practice, you can launch a 15" pie on a 15" stone, but, until then, you're talking max 14" pies. 14" is, imo, crust/bread city.

Although it may seem a bit counter intuitive, shiny surfaces like glass require a lot more flour to be slippery than a rough surface like wood. A wood peel is ideal, but, in a jam, I know a few people that use thin plywood.  The glue in most plywoods uses formaldehyde, so I wouldn't use plywood all the time, but, in a jam, I don't think it's a big deal.

Offline SWO

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 11:57:29 AM »
SWO,
It looks like you used 1/4 cup of water to proof the yeast, how much did you use with the flour?

Thanks,

Bob

Bob,

I used 1 1/4 cups of water for the flour.

Offline Bob1

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 01:13:38 PM »
 SWO,
I would then assume that the total water was 1 1/2 cup.  I ran it through the site dough calculator and came out with this.  It's close but not exact.  Hopefully I did not miss anything.  I have a few things to do but I will post some suggestions in a little while.  In the meantime, are you up to making the ball a day or two before time for a cold ferment?  Did you use this for one or two pies?


Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
ADY (1.2%):
Salt (1.6%):
Oil (4.5%):
Sugar (0.7%):
Total (164%):
596.34 g  |  21.03 oz | 1.31 lbs
333.95 g  |  11.78 oz | 0.74 lbs
7.16 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.89 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
9.54 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.99 tsp | 0.66 tbsp
26.84 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.96 tsp | 1.99 tbsp
4.17 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.05 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
978 g | 34.5 oz | 2.16 lbs | TF = N/A


Thanks,

Bob

Offline old criter

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 01:44:34 PM »
SWO,

Nice job on your first attempt. Considering you have a 15" diameter stone, you might want to reduce your pies to somewhere around the 12" diameter size. That being said, if Bob's calculations are correct and your dough weighs out at 978 grams, you have enough dough for 2 pies - I generally make mine around 400 grams for a 12" pie. Bob has included a little sugar in the mix which I would also recommend. A little cornmeal or semolina along with the flour will also help the transfer of your pizza from the glass onto the stone.

Continued success...Doug

Offline Bob1

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 02:14:49 PM »
Doug,
He had used that amount of sugar to proof the yeast.  I always go with low yeast on long ferments and I wanted to sway him in that direction if it works for him.  What % would you recommend if he want to use it that day?  I am a bit weak in that area.  If not I will look it up as a learning experience.

Thanks,

Bob


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 02:58:09 PM »
The first step is always the hardest. Congratulations on your first pie! :)

Those pepperoni do have a way of vanishing from time to time.

Good luck with the ongoing piemaking and keep posting pics. BTW, you just stepped onto one mutha of a staircase.....now you get to find out how far down the rabbit hole goes :)
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline Bob1

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 03:51:05 PM »
SWO,
Have you looked at the dough calculator at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html yet?  It is very helpful when looking at a formula.  When you break things out to baker's percentages it is much easier to see what is going on.  You can then find sites on the web to get the rough weights of the ingredients.  As long as you measure your flour the same you will be consistant.  There are a few parameters that work for most people.  Salt should be about 1.5% to 2.5% more or less too taste.  It looks like your calculation was very good.  The only question would be the amount of pies.  I agree with Criter about doing two pies with this size.  Here are general ball sizes but they for for reference only.

Round Pizza   
    Grams
10": 6.90 oz.        195 Grams
12": 10 oz.   284
14": 13.5 oz.   382
16": 17.70 oz.   502
18": 22.40 oz.       635
All the ingredients are based on the amount of flower to be used.  Don't let yourself get bogged down with a formula and don't hesitate to add more or less water, or sugar up to 5 or 6 %.  If you have the time I would use the same formula again but cut the yeast in half.  I would then make two balls.  It is really a good thing to ball the dough and form a gluten girdle.  I can send you some videos if you do not know how.  Then place the balls in an oiled container in the frig for a minimum of 24 hours.  Make sure you cover them with Saran wrap so they do not dry out.  I would then pull it out of the frig 3 to 5 hours before you make the pie (depending on ambient).  You may have rushed the first one which probably attributed to the density.  The dough should be about doubled when you use it.  I think that will really add to the flavor, and if you switch to KABF that will also help.   

Good Luck,

Bob

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 04:17:46 PM »
SWO,
             First good job on the pie. Its alot of fun to create something and see the satisfied eaters isnt it.

Second I would also agree that your dough amount should be used for at least 2 balls if not 3. My usualball weight for a 16" is about 350-370g.

One thing I will say right now is I would avoid a change in the flour myself at this time. I would say work on your recipe, fermenting and stretching method. Once you get those things fairly consistant thats when I would work on changing the ingredients and such so you can tell the difference.

In the very beginning things are gonna change so much as you learn and your methods become more consistant. Just take your time and dont get impatient. You get lost if you change too many things at one time, then you have no idea what change did what. Just my opinion of course.

Oh and I have hide my pepperoni from my wife in bag labled "fish bait" in the freezer. Otherwise she will eat it until its gone.  :angel:

She always asks "well where was that?", I just say in the freezer. Which isnt lying, lost too many batches of roni so I had to do something.  :-D
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Offline Bob1

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2010, 05:28:16 PM »
SWO,
Thunderstick has a good point.  As you change flours and they become higher in protein the water absoption amounts will increase.  Don't be worried about it because you can just add more water.  The other nice thing about the higher protein content is that the fermentation time can be increased resulting in better overall quality.  I do not know how many threads you have read, but the hydration levels can be raised to over a 100% flour weight at times.  If you go down that road you will find that once you get into the mid 60's it will be harder to work with, but you will get used to it.

Bob

Offline SWO

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2010, 05:35:20 PM »
Thanks for the replies and the feedback. It will really help my learning curve.

Yeah, I definitely think making two pies out of the amount dough I made would have been a better idea. It did seem like a lot to me, but I was just getting hungry and impatient    :-[

You guys are correct, the 15" stone is a bit small. There are four of us to feed and I'd have to make more than one pizza of that size to feed us. I'll have to pick up a larger one soon. I'd rather make one large pie for us than two smaller ones.

Bob, Thanks for posting the calculations for me. I am definitely open to making the dough a day or two in advance. In fact, I'll probably make some tonight and use it for pizza on Sunday.  That would be great if you could send me those videos, I'd really appreciate it.  I have a question: When do i put the dough in the refrigerator, after the first rise or do I make the dough, divide it in two for two pies, let it rise again and then put it in the refrigerator?

It's funny how the pepperoni disappears. You all had me laughing out loud. I think I'll put the next batch in the refrigerator labeled "Brussel Sprouts". That way my son definitely won't go near them  ;D






Offline ThunderStik

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 05:54:38 PM »
SWO,
          Dont worry about your stone size as I made many pies on a 15" stone. Sure at some point you can up grade as have many of us here. But right now i would focus on the basic methods.

You are looking at the small stone as a disadvantage. When early on it can really be the opposite. You said you only wanted to make 1 pie but that is the beauty of the smaller stone... the fact that you have to make more pies! This is a good thing right now this early in your efforts. The more pies you make the more experience you gain each and everytime you do it.

Are there advantages to having a larger stone? Of course there are, but there are great advantages in experience also.

Plus you can make pies with different types of toppings and not have to use as much of those toppings? Its all about perspective.

After my dough is mixed I divide and put it in an oiled bowl right then and into the fridge. There are other methods that use a bulk rise then divide or a room temp ferment though it depends on which one you want.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 12:49:41 AM by ThunderStik »
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Offline SWO

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2010, 05:59:57 PM »
Thanks ThunderStik,

Good point about making more pies with different topping. My wife likes mushrooms but I can take them or leave them. I like hot peppers and she doesn't. I have a feeling my family will get sick of pizza soon. Hehe.


Offline Bob1

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2010, 06:04:28 PM »
SWO,
I would mix the dough, divide, ball, and refrigerate.  You really do not need a rise time.  You can always deviate from that a little later by altering the yeast but this will work fine, as long as you let it double on Sunday before you form it.  I will post the first video now for forming the balls and direct you to a good thread for forming the dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10122.0.html  

http://how2heroes.com/videos/entrees/crispy-chewy-pizza-dough

Bob


Offline ThunderStik

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2010, 06:11:51 PM »
My family has been hammered with Pizza for a while now. :-D

I have to give them a break ever so often. So I will do my pizza baking and experiment on nights where we have other stuff for dinner. I tell them they are not obligated to eat any. So the option is theirs. This way I get to see the results of my experiments when I need to see them. If anything pizza sure does make a fine breakfast.  ;D

Here is a post of a pic of how I bowl up my dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9551.msg83798.html#msg83798
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Offline SWO

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2010, 07:25:07 PM »
Awesome! Thanks guys. I'm starting my next batch of dough right now. I'll post more pics after the next pie is done.

SWO

Offline hotsawce

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2010, 08:01:00 PM »
Keep us updated. Looks like you're well on your way!

scott123

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2010, 08:19:06 PM »
SWO, beyond reiterating what everyone else has said about getting the dough straight into the fridge after it's made, I recommend taking it one step further and using cool/cold-ish water. As long as you're working with either somewhat recently purchased yeast packets or jarred bottled yeast that's been stored properly, it really doesn't need a warm water proof.  I just dissolve my yeast in water and then combine it with the flour. By using cold water and limiting yeast activity prior to refrigeration, I get an extremely controlled long cool rise. In two days, the dough is about 1.5x, and in three, it's about double. By the time I remove it from the fridge and let it come to room temp, it's usually between 3x and 4x.  With the high protein highly extensible flour I'm using, that level of expansion works perfectly.

I was doing punch downs about 1 hour prior to baking, and I sincerely believe that they jump start the yeast and provide better oven spring, but... since punch downs are pretty much unheard of in your typical mom and pop pizzeria, I decided to stick to tradition and go straight from the container to opening the dough. Since I work with high hydration doughs and have a heavy conductive stone, I get good oven spring anyway, so I don't miss the punch down too much, but I may go back to it at a future date. I also may go back once I get my container issues resolved.  My containers, right now, are, by far, the weakest link in my equation. I know what I want, but, unfortunately, right now, it doesn't exist. ;D

Offline Bob1

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2010, 08:57:59 PM »
scott123,,
What temps were you cooking at with the preskin punchdown?

Bob

Offline hotsawce

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2010, 10:17:17 PM »
SWO, beyond reiterating what everyone else has said about getting the dough straight into the fridge after it's made, I recommend taking it one step further and using cool/cold-ish water. As long as you're working with either somewhat recently purchased yeast packets or jarred bottled yeast that's been stored properly, it really doesn't need a warm water proof.  I just dissolve my yeast in water and then combine it with the flour. By using cold water and limiting yeast activity prior to refrigeration, I get an extremely controlled long cool rise. In two days, the dough is about 1.5x, and in three, it's about double. By the time I remove it from the fridge and let it come to room temp, it's usually between 3x and 4x.  With the high protein highly extensible flour I'm using, that level of expansion works perfectly.

I was doing punch downs about 1 hour prior to baking, and I sincerely believe that they jump start the yeast and provide better oven spring, but... since punch downs are pretty much unheard of in your typical mom and pop pizzeria, I decided to stick to tradition and go straight from the container to opening the dough. Since I work with high hydration doughs and have a heavy conductive stone, I get good oven spring anyway, so I don't miss the punch down too much, but I may go back to it at a future date. I also may go back once I get my container issues resolved.  My containers, right now, are, by far, the weakest link in my equation. I know what I want, but, unfortunately, right now, it doesn't exist. ;D

With your punchdown, do you do it straight from the fridge and then let it sit at room temp, or do you put it back in the fridge or what?

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2010, 10:25:47 PM »
hotsawce,
               I pull the dough and let it set for 1.5-3 hours, shape then bake. Letting it come up to room temp helps alot with oven spring and workability. This is for a nomal cold ferment NY/American style.
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

scott123

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2010, 06:33:54 AM »
Bob, I've been approaching my NY style two different ways- a blistery relatively high char 3 minute pie with a pre-heat of 600 for an hour, or, a more evenly browned 4 minute pie with a pre-heat of 500. The first is kind of an 'adult' pie, where the second is more for less sophisticated eaters.

Hotsawce, I've done punch downs straight out of the fridge (and in the fridge, mid-ferment), and they've produced pretty good results, but this was with doughs with hydrations of over 68%. When dough is cold, gluten is in a more rigid/fragile state.  With an elevated hydration/slack dough, a punch down doesn't tear the gluten, but with a more traditional lower level of hydration, I think it's a bit too aggressive.

Coming from a baking background I was pretty pro punch downs (slap happy? ;) ), doing as many as 4 prior to skinning, but, now that I look back, I see that as being overkill. One punch down is more than enough to redistribute the nutrients for the yeast and whip them into a frenzy.

When I resolve my container issues and go back to punch downs, I'm probably going to settle in on something like this:

Remove dough from fridge and allow to come to room temp (with my plastic containers, that's about 2.5 hours)
Punch down
Allow dough to rise to pre-punch down volume (probably about 2 hours)
Skin

For my 65% hydration bromated All Trumps dough, that translates into 3x volume coming out of the fridge, 4x at room temp, about 2x after punch down and then back to 4x for the final rise. AT @65% (and higher) seems to allow for crazy volumes.  I've taken it to as many as 9x without any adverse effects. I also, with my cool water dough and straight to fridge technique, get a pretty large fermentation window coming out of the fridge. I'm able to hold my 3 day cold fermented dough at room temp (70) for as long as 10 hours without any signs of overfermentation. If there's any chance you've got an overfermented dough coming out of the fridge, skip the punch down.

Cold ferments develop a lot of gluten, so I tend to be very cautious with my kneading (not quite smooth). If you're knead happy on the front end and potentially looking at fragile overworked gluten after the cold ferment, then a punch down is the last thing you want to do.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 06:36:08 AM by scott123 »


 

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