My first attempt

[scott123]

SWO, beyond reiterating what everyone else has said about getting the dough straight into the fridge after it's made, I recommend taking it one step further and using cool/cold-ish water. As long as you're working with either somewhat recently purchased yeast packets or jarred bottled yeast that's been stored properly, it really doesn't need a warm water proof.  I just dissolve my yeast in water and then combine it with the flour. By using cold water and limiting yeast activity prior to refrigeration, I get an extremely controlled long cool rise. In two days, the dough is about 1.5x, and in three, it's about double. By the time I remove it from the fridge and let it come to room temp, it's usually between 3x and 4x.  With the high protein highly extensible flour I'm using, that level of expansion works perfectly.

I was doing punch downs about 1 hour prior to baking, and I sincerely believe that they jump start the yeast and provide better oven spring, but... since punch downs are pretty much unheard of in your typical mom and pop pizzeria, I decided to stick to tradition and go straight from the container to opening the dough. Since I work with high hydration doughs and have a heavy conductive stone, I get good oven spring anyway, so I don't miss the punch down too much, but I may go back to it at a future date. I also may go back once I get my container issues resolved.  My containers, right now, are, by far, the weakest link in my equation. I know what I want, but, unfortunately, right now, it doesn't exist.

[Bob1]

scott123,,
What temps were you cooking at with the preskin punchdown?

Bob

[hotsawce]

SWO, beyond reiterating what everyone else has said about getting the dough straight into the fridge after it's made, I recommend taking it one step further and using cool/cold-ish water. As long as you're working with either somewhat recently purchased yeast packets or jarred bottled yeast that's been stored properly, it really doesn't need a warm water proof.  I just dissolve my yeast in water and then combine it with the flour. By using cold water and limiting yeast activity prior to refrigeration, I get an extremely controlled long cool rise. In two days, the dough is about 1.5x, and in three, it's about double. By the time I remove it from the fridge and let it come to room temp, it's usually between 3x and 4x.  With the high protein highly extensible flour I'm using, that level of expansion works perfectly.

I was doing punch downs about 1 hour prior to baking, and I sincerely believe that they jump start the yeast and provide better oven spring, but... since punch downs are pretty much unheard of in your typical mom and pop pizzeria, I decided to stick to tradition and go straight from the container to opening the dough. Since I work with high hydration doughs and have a heavy conductive stone, I get good oven spring anyway, so I don't miss the punch down too much, but I may go back to it at a future date. I also may go back once I get my container issues resolved.  My containers, right now, are, by far, the weakest link in my equation. I know what I want, but, unfortunately, right now, it doesn't exist.

With your punchdown, do you do it straight from the fridge and then let it sit at room temp, or do you put it back in the fridge or what?

[ThunderStik]

hotsawce,
               I pull the dough and let it set for 1.5-3 hours, shape then bake. Letting it come up to room temp helps alot with oven spring and workability. This is for a nomal cold ferment NY/American style.

[scott123]

Bob, I've been approaching my NY style two different ways- a blistery relatively high char 3 minute pie with a pre-heat of 600 for an hour, or, a more evenly browned 4 minute pie with a pre-heat of 500. The first is kind of an 'adult' pie, where the second is more for less sophisticated eaters.

Hotsawce, I've done punch downs straight out of the fridge (and in the fridge, mid-ferment), and they've produced pretty good results, but this was with doughs with hydrations of over 68%. When dough is cold, gluten is in a more rigid/fragile state.  With an elevated hydration/slack dough, a punch down doesn't tear the gluten, but with a more traditional lower level of hydration, I think it's a bit too aggressive.

Coming from a baking background I was pretty pro punch downs (slap happy? ), doing as many as 4 prior to skinning, but, now that I look back, I see that as being overkill. One punch down is more than enough to redistribute the nutrients for the yeast and whip them into a frenzy.

When I resolve my container issues and go back to punch downs, I'm probably going to settle in on something like this:

Remove dough from fridge and allow to come to room temp (with my plastic containers, that's about 2.5 hours)
Punch down
Allow dough to rise to pre-punch down volume (probably about 2 hours)
Skin

For my 65% hydration bromated All Trumps dough, that translates into 3x volume coming out of the fridge, 4x at room temp, about 2x after punch down and then back to 4x for the final rise. AT @65% (and higher) seems to allow for crazy volumes.  I've taken it to as many as 9x without any adverse effects. I also, with my cool water dough and straight to fridge technique, get a pretty large fermentation window coming out of the fridge. I'm able to hold my 3 day cold fermented dough at room temp (70) for as long as 10 hours without any signs of overfermentation. If there's any chance you've got an overfermented dough coming out of the fridge, skip the punch down.

Cold ferments develop a lot of gluten, so I tend to be very cautious with my kneading (not quite smooth). If you're knead happy on the front end and potentially looking at fragile overworked gluten after the cold ferment, then a punch down is the last thing you want to do.

[Bob1]

Scott123,
Good info,  The thing that surprises thuogh is the 500 degree pie at 4 minutes.  Are your skins pretty thin?  I thought that they would have required almost twice that time. 

Hotsawce,
Scott brings up a great point about kneading and cold ferments.  This is what I was discussing with you.  If you have KABF and just bring the ingredients together the gluten will develop in the fridge.  Many times I have just stirred the ingredients together about 2 minutes and roughly balled.  I then pull them out the next day and use the C hand balling method as shown in the video above.  I turn the ball and rotate 90 degrees each time, and repeat a dozen times or so depending on the formula.  You can actually keep doing it until you reach the bottom and you will see the bottom appear, but it gets real tight before this point.  I started doing this after I saw Gemangi doing the C fold twice, but I do more because of the undermixed dough.  You will then see how the ball is so important to align and form a "girdle" as Julia Child used to call it.  That is why for a newbie I would suggest getting the stone and peripherals before spending a lot of money on a great mixer, that is if money is an issue.  Even when you get the mixer you will end up needing the peripherals anyway. 

Thanks,

Bob     

[ThunderStik]

Scott123,
              Are your oven air/stone temps verified with a gun and a gauge? The only reason I ask is having done temp experiments in the past I have not seen a 500 pie get done and well browned in 4 minutes.


Also on the balling. I have done quite a few different methods of prep before shaping and I still keep coming back to the simplest one. Which is let the dough set out for about 3 hrs then start forming the skin without any re-balling or punch down. Of course this time depends on your room temps and your ferm time.

When I pull the the balls out of the fridge I put them on a well oiled counter top and cover them back up with the plastic wrap that covered the bowls and just let them sit for about 3 hrs.

When I shape the skins I only flour my hands as too much unfermented flour will leave behind a bitter taste and to me is is unsightly.

I keep coming back to this as none of the other methods I have tried leaves me with the crumb/texture that you see in some of my pics as it is the only method that preserves the already developed structure as opposed to trying to recreate it. A big plus is that its also the easiest one to do.

[Bob1]

Thunderstik,
Regarding the bench flour.  Have you ever tried rice flour.  I used to use cornmeal, but I find rice flour works really well with a very low detectable profile.  With the ball methods, what temps are you using.  I would think that 550 minus and 550 plus in a combination with hydration would give a lot of different results.

Bob

[ThunderStik]

Bob1,
        Yes I have tried it and on the bench and on the peel. It works fine in both capacities. For the bench though I just use an AP. I found for as little as I use it really does not make a big difference.

Many folks use it on the peel. I have read that it doesnt burn as easy but for me it burned as has anything else that I have tried. So i will use it on the peel or cornmeal whichever is closest. I will say for beginners cornmeal is easier to use but either way is good for me.

[Bob1]

Thunderstick,
I had edited my post and I do not know if you saw it.  At what temps are you cooking at?

Bob

[ThunderStik]

Bob1,
        My pies that I cook for us (non experiment pies) I use a stone temp of around 625-640 as my oven has days where its warmer than others. My air temp is 615 +/- 10.

My experiments can rang from 450 and up. and you are correct, with all the variations results can be eye opening at least they were for me.

I have done temp experiments in 50 degree increments with the same exact dough from one batch and the pies were all very different. The hotter the temp the greater the oven spring and the more tender the inside crust is.

Once you start changing hydration, ferm times, bench warm-up times, balling method and stuff the variations get pretty wide.

To get the crumb texture that you see in some of my pics IMO the less you mess with the dough the better.  I ferm my dough in a round bowl so when they come out of the fridge they are round already and dont need to be re-worked. I just let them sit and come up to temp.

If I have left the dough in the fridge to ferm a little longer than I planned on as I often do (because I like the dough flavor at the tail end of the ferm as opposed to the beginning of middle) I may shorten the bench-warm up time. But this is somewhat dependent on room temps and hydration.   

[old criter]

SWO and Bob1,
Sorry for the delay in responding. I've been using 2% sugar in my formula with .5% IDY yeast. I've never used ADY without proofing but it's worth a try. Below is a formula/recipe I make that my wife enjoys.

469 grams bread flour (100%)
2 ¼ tsp. (10 grams) sugar (2%)
1 ½ tsp. (9 grams) salt (2%)
¾ tsp. (2.34 grams) IDY yeast (.5%)      

2 tsp. (12 grams) vital wheat gluten (optional)
1 tsp. (7 grams) oil (1.5%) optional

304 grams water (65%) 60-70 degrees

Total (171%): 801.58 grams         
Single ball: 400.8 grams

Measure water in mixer bowl, add salt, sugar and stir to combine
In a bowl, combine flour, yeast and gluten

Using mixing paddle, add ½ of flour mixture to water, mix to combine
Add oil to combine and mix for 1-2 min.
Using dough hook, add remaining flour and mix for about 3 min.
Turn out onto floured surface
Divide into 2 equal pieces (approx 400 grams ea)
Form dough balls and place into oiled bowl
Secure lids on bowls and refrigerate, at least 12 hours - 24 hours would be better
Remove dough 2 to 3 hours before use and allow to come to room temperature
Preheat oven to 500+ degrees at least 1 HOUR to heat stone

Shape, sauce and dress pizza - place pie in oven
Turn pizza after 4 minutes. Turn one or twice more during the next 4 minutes
Total cooking time – approx 8 minutes

Happy pie making...Doug

[Bob1]

SWO,
Looking at Criters formula I would like to expand a little.  Most of us use instant dry yeast because it can be added to the flour or water and is much easier.  I have never not proofed ADY, but it does instruct you to do so.  I thought they usually recommend higher temps than 103 but if you saw it proof I guess it is good.  If you get a small container of IDY you can freeze it for years. Oil is nice to add, especially at lower temps to help the crumb from drying out.  Your levels are a little on the high side, and there is nothing bad about that, but you are adding extra fat to the meal.  It may also account for some of the large bubbles.  If the flour soaks up all oil in one spot the gasses can build below them.  Looking at the time out of the fridge before prepping will depend on your ambient.  My kitchen is usually cold this time of year and it takes mine a good 4 hours to warm up.  While you are learning it is not that critical to hit the perfect rise time.  All the pies will come out good so it's not do or die, just work with it and you will get a feel for what you want.   Getting back to the subject of oil you can also drop your water levels and get very crisp pies, with that bubble effect, but I would start with one style first.

Bob

[old criter]

Bob you're absolutely right about the rise time. Our kitchen temperature ranges from 70 degrees in the winter to 78 degrees in the summer so I've written the rise times accordingly. I also agree with you and that the room rise has a fairly large window. As an example, my plan was to remove a couple of doughs from the refrigerator before leaving on a 2 hour errand, come home and pre-heat the oven for an hour and make/bake the pies. Well, wouldn't you know I ran out the door without taking the dough out of the cooler. So I get home, look at the counter, and realize my error. I had committed to make the pies for friends and couldn't let them down so I took the doughs out and turned on the oven. I made the pies as usual after only a 1 hour rise and they came out fine. They handled a little differently but any taste, crumb or oven spring differences could not be noticed.

I usually forget to include the oil and it doesn't change the texture much and, as you mention, it reduces the fat.

Doug

[scott123]

Scott123,
Good info,  The thing that surprises thuogh is the 500 degree pie at 4 minutes.  Are your skins pretty thin?  I thought that they would have required almost twice that time.

Scott123,
              Are your oven air/stone temps verified with a gun and a gauge? The only reason I ask is having done temp experiments in the past I have not seen a 500 pie get done and well browned in 4 minutes.

Well, technically speaking, I didn't say I baked the pie at 500 degrees, I said it was a 500 degree pre-heat  I probably could have conveyed it better, but when I referred to 'char' and 'browning' I was talking about the bottom of the pie. That 500 is stone temp. I do broil the top of the pie for about a minute during that 4 minute bake.

Not to say that a 500 degree browned pie can't be achieved in 4 minutes without broiling.  I've played around with stone ceilings, and, so far, haven't settled in on one quite yet, but, when I do, it will be a non broiled 500 degree 4 minute pie.

When all is said and done, temperature is pretty trivial. You can bake a pizza at 800 degrees with poorly conductive materials and end up with a pale crust or, in the same amount of time, you can bake a pizza at 500 with something highly conductive and get browning. What really matters is the thermal mass and conductivity of the stone.  With a stone that can both store a lot of heat and transfer that heat to the pizza relatively quickly, you can trim the minutes dramatically while using lower temps.  Take, for instance, my local pizzeria.  They can brown a pizza in around 6 to 7 minutes at a temp of 450.  How do they do this?  Those deck ovens utilize stones with tremendous thermal mass and good conductivity. My stone has slightly less thermal mass, but I have about double the conductivity of deck oven cordierite. That's how I can get away with a 4 minute 500 degree pie.

Bob1, my crust varies between being about as thick as a typical NY pizzeria and a tiny bit thinner. The difference, though, is not great enough to affect the way the bottom of the pie browns.  Occasionally, I've gone a little crazy with the toppings and lost a little bit of color, but not much.

ThunderStik, I don't have an IR thermometer yet, but I have measured my oven with an oven thermometer and it cycles between about 25 below and 50 above the temp on the dial.  This cycling, though is caused by the radiant heat  coming up from the bottom element. With the tempering effect of the thick stone, I highly doubt the stone's surface temp is much higher than 500.  I'll have a gun in the next two weeks.  I can pretty much guarantee you, though, that it won't read more than 515.

[Bob1]

Scott,
I don't want to go to far off track with SWO's thread and comment on more advanced methods, so I just want to touch on a couple of thoughts.  I personally don't care for punching down pizza dough, but I would suggest that SWO try both methods since he has two balls.  They will both come out well.  In regards to temps and browning, most big time places that cook at 450 have a lot of trouble keeping temps when they get busy.  I have a friend who worked at a city place for ten years and he said that you could always tell when the helper made the dough and forgot to add the sugar, they could never get the pies to brown.  I also have opened clarification on technique in order to keep perspective.  When it comes to oven spring heat really changes the equation.  I will attach a picture of a simple chef Boyardee pizza I did with absolutely no additives.  It shows what a temp of 650 can do in combination with a one day ferment and no knead.  Also when it comes to browning it depends a lot on the flour.  I would like to pursue tries on wether it is the protein content or the malting.  I personally think it is the malting but some day I will pursue it.  I plan on adding some diastatic malt to Caputo and see what it does.  All these comments are being made for SWO's attempt and his available temps.  I also have to clarify that you are using bromated flour which is another factor.  I stopped the bromate back in 97, but I had used it for a few years, and it is a game changer.  Here is another thought of how subjective it can really get with all the factors.  It may be possible that the punch down with the bromated flour and higher surface temps allow enough bubbled dough to achieve higher surface temps and cause more browning.  It's all way past what we are doing this weekend, in order to help start off SWO.

Thanks,

Bob

[SWO]

Hey everyone, thanks for the info, it really helps. I plan on making two pies tonight. On Friday evening, one ball of dough was put directly in the refrigerator after kneading and the other was allowed to rise for a couple of hours before being placed in the refrigerator. I'm curious to see if I get any difference between the two.  I'll post pics and a post-dinner report sometime tonight or tomorrow.

[Bob1]

SWO,
That was a great choice.  When I make dough I usually do about three pies and treat each ball a bit different.  It's a great way to compare things.  You may find that the one you delayed will taste better for a shorter cold ferment.  I strongly agree with what Thunderstik suggested about not changing to many things.  By using the same formula and doing a change up, it really accelerates the learning curve.  In this case I would recind my advice about using a punch down as Scott recommended on one ball.  Two changes would not be good.  I think it would be counter productive for the experience.

Bob

[SWO]

OK, here are my latest creations. The ingredients were the same, expect I used KABF. For pizza A I let the dough rise after kneading for about 3 hours, then put it in the fridge for 48 hrs. Pizza B, I put the dough in the fridge right after kneading, again for 48 hrs. We couldn't tell a difference in taste between the two. Pizza A was cheese & pepperoni. Pizza B was cheese, pepperoni, and 1/2 sliced Santa Fe Grande hot peppers. The flavor for both was very good. My family said my pizzas were better than anything we have bought so far. Next time, I'll play around with a different sauce and maybe some other toppings. I've been very pleased with the results so far. It's been fun!

P.S. It looks like the Pizza B pics were too large to post for some reason, sorry. It looks almost identical to Pizza A.

[Bob1]

SWO,
Glad it came out good.  The pie looks great.  You can download Google Picasso for free.  It will reformat your pics to under 128K so you can post them.

Bob