My first attempt

[old criter]

SWO,
Nice job with your pies and thanks for posting the results of your experiment. As you're finding out, there's a lot of flexibility with doughs, mixing techniques and fermentation methods which will still produce a quality pizza. I also agree with Bob regarding changes; until you have your feet wet, change one thing at a time and you'll know exactly what made the difference - good or bad. Changing two or more things and you can start chasing your tail trying to figure out what happened.

By the weigh (couldn't help it), have you gotten a scale?

Continued success...Doug


 

[SWO]

Bob, Thanks for the picture info. I'll give it a try soon.

Doug,

I don't have a scale yet. Any recommendations?

SWO

[old criter]

SWO,
I went with the "My Weigh" 7000. They make a lot of models at different price levels but there were several factors that helped me choose this one.
1. Under $50
2. Digital
3. Has a tare feature
4. Uses only 3 AA batteries (usually on-hand and easily replaced)
5. Weighs in pounds, ounces, kilograms and grams

Available at Amazon for $38 with free shipping
Here's the link: http://www.amazon.com/My-Weigh-KD-7000-Digital-Stainless-Steel/dp/B000EVHHJC

[Puzzolento]

I just bought an Escali 115C for my church. I wish I had one. It was under twenty bucks, it goes to 11 pounds, it weighs in one-gram increments, and it STAYS ON FOR FOUR MINUTES. That last part is fantastic. My Salton seems to turn off every fifteen seconds.

[Bob1]

SWO.
Just a thought if you are going to make pies for Sunday.  You have all ready used a two day ferment.  You may want to keep every thing the same and try it at three days this week, and four the next.  This will show how flavors can develop.  Don't worry about it not coming out.  They will get better.  I would suggest adding a day every week until you see the dough starting to get flimsy and possibly tear.  The last pie will taste great but may not rise quite as much because the gluten is starting to degrade.  As long as you try it at 1 day intervals you will not get caught with dough you can't use. 


Bob 

[SWO]

Thanks Bob, I'll give it a try. I just ordered a My Weigh KD 8000 scale from Amazon for $45 including shipping, so I'm anxious to give it a try when it arrives.

SWO

[Bob1]

SWO,
You'll be real happy using a scale.  Besides making consistant pies there are other great advantages with a scale.  Here are some.

You will not need measuring cups for water, flour, salt, oil, etc.  You can use the tare function to zero it out and just add the next ingredient.

It really helps make the whole process much easier.  It will also enable you to adjust your formulas in baker's percents to alter from one size to another with no effort.

You will then be able to see the common ratio parameters of certain ingredients. Which will allow you to experiment.

You will also be able to apply forum formulas with out having to convert them.

Peter says that yeast amounts have been tediously measured for the dough calculators.  I would recommend using that with standard spoon measurements.  You can also pick up micro measuring spoons cheap at a good health food store or on the net (for $4 to $8).  Or you could just estimate an 1/8 or 1/16 tsp.  I think that the small amounts of yeast will be hard to get accurate with the average scale with 1 gram increments. 
Bob

 

Bob

[SWO]

Hi Bob,

I do my own ammo reloading, so I have another scale that can measure down to 1/10 of a grain (1 ounce = 437.5 grains) so measuring accurate amounts of yeast won't be a problem for me. I do have a question about yeast though. The only kind we have available in our local grocery stores is the Fleischman's ADY that comes in a jar or the same in 3 packs. I picked up a jar of it today. When using the dough calculator, how do you account for the amount of water used to activate the yeast? Just subtract that amount for the overall amount of water needed?

[dms]

Hi Bob,

I do my own ammo reloading, so I have another scale that can measure down to 1/10 of a grain (1 ounce = 437.5 grains) so measuring accurate amounts of yeast won't be a problem for me. I do have a question about yeast though. The only kind we have available in our local grocery stores is the Fleischman's ADY that comes in a jar or the same in 3 packs. I picked up a jar of it today. When using the dough calculator, how do you account for the amount of water used to activate the yeast? Just subtract that amount for the overall amount of water needed?

yes.  mix the yeast with some other liquid that you're otherwise going to add. 

I prefer to use instant dry yeast.  (That's what fleishman's "bread machine" yeast is, and the "rapid rise" stuff in envelopes.  If you're going to do any amount of baking, it's worth buying in bulk.  A pound of yeast from a restaurant supply (or sam's/costco) costs a couple bucks: less than a little jar does at the supermarket, and keeps for a year or two.  the big advantage of IDY is that it doesn't require any activiation.  Simply mix it with the flour. 

[Bob1]

SWO.
It's great that you all ready have the small scale.  I use the small spoons and try to stay consistant.

Yes, you just need to subtract the water you want to warm, and then add it back with the proofed yeast.  Just make sure that you do not use a lot of water.  You don't want your finshed dough to be too warm after mixing.  Most people say to between 78 to 80 degrees at final dough temp.  I read the Italians on another forum shoot for 73 degrees so I have been using that method for now.  You should be fine with the amount you are mixing.  You may also want to pursue that thought after you experiment with the longer ferments.  You could repeat the process by adding chilled water as the constant, and start altering the ferment times over again.  It should gain you some good insight with out spoiling a diner.

Bob

[Pete-zza]

The amount of water that I have read that should be used to rehydrate ADY is about four or five times the weight of the ADY. I just eyeball it and use a small amount of the formula water without weighing it.

Peter

[Bob1]

Pete,
I never really use ADY anymore.  Someone commented about not proofing it all.  Does that really work?

Thanks,

Bob

[Pete-zza]

Someone commented about not proofing it all.  Does that really work?

Bob,

Yes, it does work but you have to be careful because using nonrehydrated ADY can really slow down the fermentation process. It is a neat application if you want the dough to last several days longer than usual. Also, if you try to use the dough after say, a couple of days, you are likely to be disappointed because two days of fermentation will not be enough to get a functional dough that will yield a finished crust that has decent flavor and good texture. You can see an example of what I am talking about and where I used ADY in nonrehydrated form at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308. If I were a Papa John's or a Domino's, or any other commissary-based pizza operator who wants to keep deliveries to stores to twice a week, I think I would use the nonrehydrated ADY and instruct workers to allow sufficient time for the dough balls to ferment before using.

I normally don't recommend that ADY be used without rehydration because someone is likely to think that it is appropriate to use it that way all the time. For normal applications, my advice is to rehydrate it.

Peter

[Bob1]

Thanks Pete, I'll have to try it sometime.

Thanks,

Bob

[dms]

Bob,

Yes, it does work but you have to be careful because using nonrehydrated ADY can really slow down the fermentation process. It is a neat application if you want the dough to last several days longer than usual. Also, if you try to use the dough after say, a couple of days, you are likely to be disappointed because two days of fermentation will not be enough to get a functional dough that will yield a finished crust that has decent flavor and good texture. You can see an example of what I am talking about and where I used ADY in nonrehydrated form at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308. If I were a Papa John's or a Domino's, or any other commissary-based pizza operator who wants to keep deliveries to stores to twice a week, I think I would use the nonrehydrated ADY and instruct workers to allow sufficient time for the dough balls to ferment before using.

You'd get better, more consistent results using lower levels of IDY.  Activity of un-rehydrated ADY varies an awful lot. 

[Pete-zza]

You'd get better, more consistent results using lower levels of IDY.  Activity of un-rehydrated ADY varies an awful lot. 

dms,

Can you elaborate further on the variations that are incident to the use of unrehydrated ADY?

I did try using a small amount of IDY (0.14%), also in the context of a Papa John's clone dough, as described in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, so your point is something that perhaps ought to be considered. Previously, I had used the unrehydrated ADY in a NY style dough formulation, as described in Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg37060.html#msg37060. Both of those experiments were to see what effect the unrehydrated ADY would have on the longevity of the two doughs. As I am sure you know, ADY has more dead yeast cells than IDY, some of which cells "entomb" live yeast cells, so I theorized that it would take longer to penetrate the dead yeast cells to activate the live ADY cells. I did not do enough tests to draw any conclusions other than were reported.

Peter

[dms]

The problem with putting un-rehydrated ADY in dough is that the amount of time it takes to activate the yeast is variable.  So is the distribution of yeast grains through the dough (they're not likely to be uniformly distributed), as is the fraction of the yeast that will actually activate.  (Something like 10% of ADY by volume is dead, but lots depends on storage and handling conditions). 

If you're making bread at home, that's not a big deal: you can wait more or less time.  for a commercial operation, it's a problem.  (There are encapsulated yeast products used in frozen doughs; I wopnder if they're adaptable to fresh, delayed fermentation doughs.) 

[Bob1]

DMS,
Thanks for the insight.  I never knew much about the ADY even though I used to use it.  I would guess that for a cold home ferment it would then multiply and distribute well after a few days.   

Thanks,

Bob

[Pete-zza]

When I experimented with long, room-temperature fermented doughs, as discussed, for example, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html, I used very small amounts of IDY, as low as 0.0449% (1/256 of a teaspoon, based on 9.36 ounces of flour). In the beginning, I actually rehydrated the IDY in a small amount of water because I was concerned that the IDY wouldn't be adequately dispersed throughout the flour and dough. But later I discovered that it didn't really matter. I found that I could just stir the trivial amount of IDY into the flour and I would get good dough performance. I never tried the same experiment using ADY but it would be interesting to see what the results would be from such an experiment. I think I would wait until summer to conduct such an experiment because my kitchen is too cool in the winter to make long fermented doughs of the best quality.

I might add that I was told that one of the major commissary-based pizza chains uses/used the ADY delayed fermentation method. However, I have not been able to confirm whether that is true.

Peter