Author Topic: Bread/High Gluten Conversion  (Read 1093 times)

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Offline Cayman

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Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« on: February 23, 2010, 10:55:40 AM »
I was wondering if there was any conversion needed for Bread Flour with Hi Gluten Flour. When entering this into the calculator, what is the "recommended flour" that is used in the assumption? (i.e What flour was the calculator build on using) If it is Bread Or AP, how should I adjust or compensate for Hi Gluten?


Thanks for the help!!



Edited to remove somewhat of duplicate question.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 11:02:59 AM by Cayman »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 11:16:35 AM »
Cayman,

The various dough calculating tools are agnostic as to the type of flour. It doesn't matter. However, the rest of the baker's percents have to be proper since each of those percents is in relation to the weight of flour. As an example, if you are using bread flour, the hydration percent might be 62%. For a high-gluten flour, it might be 63%. For an all-purpose flour, it might be 58-60%. And so forth. The flour always has a baker's percent of 100%, no matter the type of flour.

Peter

Offline Cayman

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 11:46:10 AM »
Peter - Thanks for the help as that clears it up more. So the percentages you posted for each flour, are those accurate "guidelines"? I'm just trying to understand how I would know where to start with each flour type.

Is the hydration the only thing that really changes, so if I were to adjust that in the calculator, it would then adjust everything else accordingly?I'm curious because hypothetically say you post a some numbers on a dough you tried and it appealed to me so I wanted to try it too. But say you used BF and I'm gong to use HG... Could I backward enter your numbers to get them to match in the calculator and then just change the hydration?

Thanks, and I apologize as I don't mean to be a pain, just trying to understand this all.

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 12:36:04 PM »
Cayman,
                This is where experience comes in. The more pies you make the more experience you have with dough "feel". Many times you can just feel what it needs or wants, when its done kneading, when its done fermenting.

 Make alot of pies brother, the more you handle the dough and start to understand whats going on the better your pies will be as will your understanding of how all the different pieces of the puzzle fit together.

Not long ago I was in your shoes, when I first started I had zero experience baking...literally. Pizza was the first thing I ever attempted. I was in way over my head and would read 90% of the stuff on this board and have zero clue what people were talking about.

Patience, reading, asking questions all helped out. But the biggest thing IMO is experience. When you start making alot of pies and you get that experience you start to see and understand many of the things you read about. Flour and water is cheap. Experience is golden.


I guess this is of really no help to you directly as far as your question asked but realize that much like sex, you can read about it all you want but its not until you do it that everything makes sense.
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010, 12:40:42 PM »
Cayman,

No need to apologize. All of the dough calculating tools are intended to be used with known, and hopefully workable, dough formulations where the baker's percents are known or can be calculated. However, there is nothing to stop anyone from entering whatever set of baker's percents or other inputs into any tool that they wish, for whatever reason. The risk, of course, is that if the baker's percents and other inputs are not workable in terms of producing a functional dough, you can end up with a failed dough/pizza. So, it takes a pretty good working knowledge about doughs and bakers percents to make these kinds of changes.

To answer your qustions, if one assumes a fixed dough weight, changing the hydration value in a dough calculating tool will affect the values of other ingredients in the dough formulation. The hydration values I gave for the different flours are correct except for the all-purpose flour it would be 60% (this is about right for most all-purpose flours). However, in practice, people, both professionals and home pizza makers alike, often use a range of hydration values that can vary quite widely. When in doubt about what hydration value to use for a given type of flour, I usually start with the rated absorption value for that flour and make adjustments, if needed, after I have used the dough and assessed the results.

To show you how values can change with different flours with different hydration values, consider the following two examples using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html where the only changes are the hydration. For purposes of the two examples, I have assumed a fixed dough weight of 20 ounces. The first example might apply to a dough formulation using all-purpose flour; the second example might apply to a dough formulation using high-gluten flour.

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (164.15%):
345.42 g  |  12.18 oz | 0.76 lbs
207.25 g  |  7.31 oz | 0.46 lbs
1.38 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
6.04 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
3.45 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.77 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
3.45 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
567 g | 20 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = N/A

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (167.15%):
339.22 g  |  11.97 oz | 0.75 lbs
213.71 g  |  7.54 oz | 0.47 lbs
1.36 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
5.94 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.06 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
3.39 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
3.39 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.85 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
567 g | 20 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = N/A

As you can see, the differences in the ingredients other than the flour and water do not change much. In fact, unless you have a special scale that can handle small weights of ingredients, the differences are so slight as not to be able to measure the ingredients out to their exact values. In my case, I use a quality digital scale to weigh out the flour and water and for the rest of the ingredient I use the volume measurements. I would have to make a quite large dough batch to find it useful to weigh the ingredients other than the flour and water.

You might play around with the expanded dough calculating tool to get a better feel for how it works but I wouldn't get too hung up over it as this early stage of your learning process. In my opinion, it is far more important that you find a good dough recipe to practice with until you have mastered it. Then you can decide what changes you might want to make to the recipe to improve it for your purposes.

Peter






Offline dms

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 12:45:18 PM »
Peter - Thanks for the help as that clears it up more. So the percentages you posted for each flour, are those accurate "guidelines"? I'm just trying to understand how I would know where to start with each flour type.

Is the hydration the only thing that really changes, so if I were to adjust that in the calculator, it would then adjust everything else accordingly?I'm curious because hypothetically say you post a some numbers on a dough you tried and it appealed to me so I wanted to try it too. But say you used BF and I'm gong to use HG... Could I backward enter your numbers to get them to match in the calculator and then just change the hydration?

Thanks, and I apologize as I don't mean to be a pain, just trying to understand this all.

In general, flour with higher protein content will absorb more water than flour with a lower protein content.  So to have dough of a given consistency, you'd need more water in a higher protein flour, and less in a lower protein flour.  There are other properties of flour that change their absorption characteristics, primarily "damaged starch".  And there are other ingredients in dough that change this (salt, sugar, oils).  The numbers Peter gives are a good guideline to work from.  

David

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2010, 01:13:52 PM »
David,

These threads are mainly for your consumption (and for others also interested in flour absorption values) since I don't want Cayman to get confused at this point by arcane issues:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7125.msg61367/topicseen.html#msg61367 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4646.msg39204/topicseen.html#msg39204.

I was also able to track down the bakingbusiness.com article referenced in the second link above. It is archived at web.archive.org at http://web.archive.org/web/20070202064449/http://www.bakingbusiness.com/refbook_results.asp?ArticleID=37104.

Peter


Offline Cayman

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2010, 01:43:39 PM »
Peter and David, thank you so much!! This helps a lot. I am dedicated to learning as much as I can and I think you both have pointed me in the right direction.

I'm going to take the numbers above, in Peter's post, and give that a shot. From there, I will document every detail that I can and post back my results with my thoughts. From there I think I will gain even more knowledge!!! I have 4 dough in the fridge now that I will also report on with my numbers. 2 of them may be a total mess though as I was looking at the percent of the ingredients while measuring out the weight. Lol

Thanks again guys!!

Offline Cayman

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2010, 01:49:59 PM »
Peter... Do you recall the size, thickness, etc that you put into the calculator to come up with those numbers? I would like to have them so I can enter it as well as a "base". Thanks!!

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2010, 02:05:25 PM »
Peter... Do you recall the size, thickness, etc that you put into the calculator to come up with those numbers? I would like to have them so I can enter it as well as a "base".

Cayman,

I used the Dough Weight option of the expanded dough calculating tool, solely for the purpose of coming up with the two examples I posted. If you want to determine the amounts of ingredients needed to make a specified number of pizzas of a given size (diameter) and crust thickness, you can use the Thickness Factor option of the tool. The two examples I gave you are for a basic NY style dough. A typical range of thickness factors for that style might be 0.088-0.105. There are other possible values outside of that range but I think for your purposes you might find that range to be a good starting point. I also don't normally use sugar in my NY style dough. I used it in the examples I gave you solely for instructional purposes. However, it is up to you if you want to use sugar in your dough. You might use it if you plan to hold your dough in the refrigerator beyond a couple of days or so.

In using the Thickness Factor option, you should use the same set of baker's percents in the tool as I gave in the two examples, along with the other requested inputs. I also suggest that you use a bowl residue compensation factor to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough. For dough made in a stand mixer, I usually use a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. For a hand kneaded dough, I use a value of 2.5%.

Peter


Offline Cayman

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2010, 02:17:48 PM »
Great, thanks again. I will make a couple of more tonight. Going to stop and pick up some bulk containers so I can open this 50# monster and try the All Trumps out. I have read some great things about this bromated flour, despite the warnings that go with it. Heck, I smoked for 21 years, so how bad can flour be for me!! Lol :)

Offline dms

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2010, 02:53:34 PM »
David,


It's important to remember that 'rated absorption' is a pretty arbitrary number.  It's simply the amount of water that results in a particular reading in a farinograph (which is just a mixer with torque measuring instruments, more ore less, though a very particular sort of mixer).  The units are arbitrary (they have no (direct) meaning outside the farinograph, though higher numbers is a stiff more elastic dough), but the various times and things that come from the farinograph tell you quite a bit about the flour's behavior.  

For pizza dough (of, roughly, the NY style) I prefer a substantially less elastic dough, with much high extensibility.  Thus hydration in the low seventies for flour with about 14% protein.  Yes, that's sticky.  but it perfroms the way I want it to.  

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2010, 03:20:09 PM »
David,

I agree with what you say. Also, I believe the absorption values apply to bread dough rather than pizza dough, although I don't know if that is material. I have also noted that professional pizza operators don't go by rated absorption values. They are far more likely to use 57-60% hydration for a NY style dough than 63%. Home pizza makers are all over the lot from a hydration standpoint. I have tried high hydration doughs but they don't tend to bake well in my standard home oven and the slices are soggy and limp when reheated. What oven configuration and bake protocol do you use for your NY style?

Peter

Offline dms

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Re: Bread/High Gluten Conversion
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2010, 04:13:33 PM »
David,

I agree with what you say. Also, I believe the absorption values apply to bread dough rather than pizza dough, although I don't know if that is material. I have also noted that professional pizza operators don't go by rated absorption values. They are far more likely to use 57-60% hydration for a NY style dough than 63%. Home pizza makers are all over the lot from a hydration standpoint. I have tried high hydration doughs but they don't tend to bake well in my standard home oven and the slices are soggy and limp when reheated. What oven configuration and bake protocol do you use for your NY style?

Peter

The farinograph values are done with nothing but flour and water (both at standardized temperatures.)  So it's not really any sort of dough, it's just, well, flour and water.  but the various times that are on the plot tell you things about how long you'd have to mix to get the results you want.  (Flours that are intended to be used for pasta and other noodle making have a different target viscosity.)

My baking set up is a 3/4 inch cordorite slab, 14X16 (I think), in a standard Maytag electric oven.  About 1/3 of the way up.  Oven temp is 550 (the highest the oven will do).  I preheat for about an hour.  I make about a 12" or 13" pie (the limit of my peel), using roughly 300 grams of dough.  the cooks in about 11 minutes.  I usually rotate the pie halfway through, and allow several minutes recovery before starting the next one.  (Not always; depends on who I'm feeding.) 


 

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