Author Topic: Fermentation  (Read 1270 times)

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Offline Cayman

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Fermentation
« on: February 24, 2010, 10:54:19 AM »
Ok, so now that I am well on my way making dough, I will take a moment to get some detail on my next objective.

How do I know when a dough is ready to be removed from the fridge to use? How would I know when it is about to be over-fermented? Lastly, what are the main parameters, or ingredients, that primarily effect this?

I figured this would be the logical next step to learn and understand now that I am making different doughs. I have several in the fridge now and I think one is ready to come out tonight. It has doubled in size and possible a little more.

Thanks for today's lesson!! :)



Online Pete-zza

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Re: Fermentation
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2010, 11:25:50 AM »
Cayman,

There are no generic or easy answers to your questions, as you will see if you read this recent thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10146.msg88601.html#msg88601.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Fermentation
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2010, 11:34:55 AM »
Cayman,
             Early on I just did experiments. I let doughs go for long periods of time and also used them early just to see the extremes.  There is no "perfect time", just perfect for you. Now I generally know by the amount of time, if I dont like when im doing an experiment I can tell by poking the dough. The feel of it and the reaction of the dough will tell me where its at in the process. I hate do do this but I will quote what I said yesterday.

"Cayman,
                This is where experience comes in. The more pies you make the more experience you have with dough "feel". Many times you can just feel what it needs or wants, when its done kneading, when its done fermenting.

 Make alot of pies brother, the more you handle the dough and start to understand whats going on the better your pies will be as will your understanding of how all the different pieces of the puzzle fit together.

Not long ago I was in your shoes, when I first started I had zero experience baking...literally. Pizza was the first thing I ever attempted. I was in way over my head and would read 90% of the stuff on this board and have zero clue what people were talking about.

Patience, reading, asking questions all helped out. But the biggest thing IMO is experience. When you start making alot of pies and you get that experience, you start to see and understand many of the things you read about. Flour and water is cheap. Experience is golden.


I guess this is of really no help to you directly as far as your question asked but realize that much like sex, you can read about it all you want but its not until you do it that everything makes sense."
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

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Offline dms

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Re: Fermentation
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2010, 11:36:31 AM »
Experience.  

Make a batch of dough, divide it into seven pieces, and cook on each day for a week.  

Offline Bob1

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Re: Fermentation
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2010, 11:59:56 AM »
Hey guys,
I think it depends on many aspects of the formula and ingredients as all have noted.  The only thing I would like to add is that Gluten content and development is a major factor,as is, yeast, malting, and sugar.  In order to extend cold fermentation time and increase that window Hi gluten plays a major role.   Therefore with the same formula and a weaker flour it will fail early.

Thanks,

Bob

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2010, 12:18:15 PM »
I agree with the posts above that experience is the most important.

I don't really like touching my dough balls until I'm ready to bake them. What I do, besides looking at them from the top (as a general rule, I've found that anything north of 2X rise is too much for the Neo-NY style pies I try to make), is use clear trays or containers so that I can see them from the bottom. Looking at the bottom of the balls on clear plastic, you can see the size and structure of the gas pockets in the dough. By paying attention to how your dough looks before baking it, particularly from the bottom, I think you'll quickly learn what to look for to know that your dough that is ready to be baked.


Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Cayman

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Re: Fermentation
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 12:21:08 PM »
Peter... Thanks for the link!! That helps. During my reading and searching, I saw that post but didn't read all the way through it because I thought it was related to something else. My mistake for not reading it all. Lol

TS... I agree and see what you are saying, but that quote could apply to probably 90% of my questions. Lol I am just trying to be proactive while here at work and ask questions to things they pop in my head. Well that and my boss said I couldn't have a mixer and fridge in my office. ;)

Great info Bob and Craig!!!

So, here is one for you. After kneading my dough for a several minutes the other day, I took it out and hand kneaded for about 20 seconds prior to balling it for the fridge. Well right at the end, the dough became very tight and firm like a flexed muscle. What foes that type of "feel" tell me?

Thanks again guys!! I really appreciate the advice, opinions and direction!!!

Offline Bob1

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Re: Fermentation
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 12:38:55 PM »
Wow,
I like that question because I can put my head on the block while voicing my opinion.  It simply means the gluten is developed and tight.  It will relax in an hour or so.  There is a lot of talk about kneading and over kneading.  In my opinion the less knead gives the most flavor but there are also good points for a tighter knead.  I feel that a tight overdeveloped knead can get you further on a cold ferment causing other flavors to come out in the long run, and sometimes beating the short knead.  Then there is about 963 million variations between the two.  I listened to Verasano's radio interview the other day , for the first time, and it was more than a tad pompous.  I also think he has blinders on and sees it as the only way.  However, in it's place, I see it as one option among many, and not to be discarded. 

Thanks,

Bob

Bob

Offline tcarlisle

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Re: Fermentation
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 01:35:53 PM »
So, here is one for you. After kneading my dough for a several minutes the other day, I took it out and hand kneaded for about 20 seconds prior to balling it for the fridge. Well right at the end, the dough became very tight and firm like a flexed muscle. What foes that type of "feel" tell me?

Thanks again guys!! I really appreciate the advice, opinions and direction!!!


Hard to say without feeling it myself. But it sounds like not enough hydration. Before I got a clue and found this site and other places to truly understand dough and baking, I just used a few recipes. One recipe I used to use does not have anywhere near enough hydration to be a NY style dough and should be used for very thing style instead. The dough balls from that recipe are quite hard and dry. I am imagining from your description that your dough ball ended up like this.

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Fermentation
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 01:45:46 PM »
To me it sounds like the gluten formation is good and now its ready to go in the fridge. But this depends on the recipe.

I once did an experiment on knead times, one batch I did a machine knead of 50 min. Just to go to the extremes. Man that doughball was so tight it wasnt even funny, I bet you could have thrown it through a wall. But given time to ferment and breakdown it made some if the best pies I have EVER eatin.

All other things being correct, it just sounds like its done and ready to be stored.
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)


Offline Cayman

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Re: Fermentation
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2010, 06:34:15 PM »
Here is the first dough that was make this past Sunday evening. I took a side picture and a bottom picture so you can see the look and texture of it. When looking at the bottom, there appear to be some black specs or something. I think I read somewhere that this is normal and ok (correct me if I am wrong). When I press on the dough, it is pretty firm and bounces back after pushing it with my finger. It just came out of the fridge when I felt it though... not sure if it matters.

I based this off of Peters PJ Clone Recipe. Here are the numbers...

KABF (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (.14%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.8%):
Total (170.49%):
354.44 g  |  12.5 oz | 0.78 lbs
200.26 g  |  7.06 oz | 0.44 lbs
0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.29 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
25.87 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.75 tsp | 1.92 tbsp
17.01 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.27 tsp | 1.42 tbsp
604.28 g | 21.32 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = 0.1384653


Please share your thoughts on the look of this and how I described the feel of it.

Thanks!!!



« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 06:38:13 PM by Cayman »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Fermentation
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2010, 06:52:17 PM »
Cayman,

From an appearance standpoint, it looks like you can use the dough. The recipe you used, at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, is intended to make a dough that can go out to about 5 days of cold fermentation. However, to reach that point you would have to follow the instructions I provided for that recipe very closely. I don't know when you are planning to use the dough but if you followed my instructions and got a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F and your refrigerator does a good job of keeping the dough on the cold side, you might let the dough go out to the point where you plan to use it.

Peter

Offline Cayman

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Re: Fermentation
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2010, 07:02:01 PM »
Peter... Being that I started on that recipe, which might not have been the best place for a newbie to start, I am going to go ahead and cook it tonight. I am also making a couple of new doughs to get started on a more proper level.  :) I am also anxious to try my All Trumps HG as well.