Author Topic: Need NY dough recipe for my location  (Read 825 times)

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Offline pizzaChops

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Need NY dough recipe for my location
« on: December 06, 2015, 11:32:37 PM »
Hello-
Can't wait to begin this journey and have a headache after reading hundreds of posts from the last 10 years over the past week. 

Here is what I have:
Kitchen Aid standing mixer
550 degree oven
18" pizza stone
3lbs KA 00 Italian Flour
3lbs KA Bread Flour
3lbs KA High Gluten Flour
IDY
Eden Malt Barley Syrup
Uncooked sauce (crushed romas, dried oregano, dried basil, granulated garlic, salt and pepper)
Polly-O Mozz

I would like to make 2 types of dough.  One with a sweetener (sugar or malt barley syrup) and one without.  After reading some recipes I'm thinking of making the dough in the mixer then balling and into the fridge right away uncovered for 30 min then 72 hour ferment.  Follow by 1.5 bench rest then pie time.  What would be your recommendation for a starting recipe based on the low humidity and 75 degree temp of where I live?  I also want to jump straight in with 16" pies (19oz?)  Thanks for your help.  I'm just so lost after reading so many different recipes.

Offline jsaras

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Re: Need NY dough recipe for my location
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2015, 12:45:27 PM »
I'd suggesting use the basic Lehmann formulation with the bread flour only (62% hydration. 1.75-2.25% salt, skip the oil for now) .  Use 2% barley syrup. 
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Need NY dough recipe for my location
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2015, 01:37:53 PM »
pizzaChops,

Picking up where Jonas left off, I have set forth below a typical NY style dough formulation but using barley malt syrup instead of sugar. To come up with the dough formulation, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html. That is the tool you want to use in the future if you want to make changes to the dough formulation. Also, that tool has non-diastatic barley malt syrup as an ingredient.

Today I elected to use the Thickness Factor option where I entered a thickness factor of 0.09 into the expanded dough calculating tool, along with a pizza size of 16". The 0.09 thickness factor is above what many members use, but one that I have seen used in NYC (and even a bit higher in one well known and highly regarded NY style pizzeria). The reason I selected that value is to allow you a little slack in opening up the dough ball without getting thin spots and possibly allowing you to spin and toss the skin. Once you gain experience opening up dough balls, you can always use the expanded dough calculating tool to change the thickness factor. What most members on the forum who like the NY style seem to prefer is a thickness factor of around 0.085, so that would be a reasonable value once you feel comfortable opening up dough balls. You will also note that I used a bowl residue compensation factor of 1.5% in the expanded dough calculating tool. That is to compensate for minor dough losses that occur during preparation of the dough. I assume that you have a scale to at least weight the flour and water. In such a case, because the final dough ball is likely to weigh a bit more than 18.1 ounces, you will want to scale the dough ball to that weight.

Here is the formulation:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.22%):
Salt (2%):
Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup (2%):
Total (166.22%):
313.26 g  |  11.05 oz | 0.69 lbs
194.22 g  |  6.85 oz | 0.43 lbs
0.69 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
6.27 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.12 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
6.27 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.9 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
520.7 g | 18.37 oz | 1.15 lbs | TF = 0.09135
Note: Dough (18.1 ounces) is for a single 16" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.09; bowl residue compensation - 1.5%

I might also point out that a large number of pizzerias specializing in the NY style in NYC use a high gluten flour. It is mostly a bromated flour such as the All Trumps. The King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) flour is a high gluten flour that can be used as an alternative. Since you already have that flour and may want to use it up at some point, if you decide to try a NY style with that flour, you should use a hydration of 63%. Many NY style pizzerias in NYC also use sugar and oil. Typical ranges are 0-2% for sugar, with 1-2% sugar being typical for a dough that is to be cold fermented beyond two days, and 0-3% for the oil. You can create your own desired dough formulation by using the above values in the expanded dough calculating tool, including changing the thickness factor if you'd like. I can help you if you get stuck and need help changing the dough formulation.

Since you plan to use a KitchenAid stand mixer, you might want to read the series of posts starting at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg19563#msg19563. Those posts might give you some insights into what you might expect using such a stand mixer, especially if you have a C-hook. You shouldn't be too surprised if the dough ball does not visibly rise a lot while in the refrigerator. That is fairly typical for a cold fermented Lehmann NY style dough. So, you should be sure to give the dough ball about 1 1/2 to 2 hours of temper time on the bench once you have removed the dough ball from the refrigerator. That is when you are more likely to see signs of life. It may even become necessary to adjust the amount of yeast at some point based on your results. As an example, where I live in Texas, I might use around 0.25% IDY in the summer and around 0.40% IDY in the winter.

To add to the above, I will mention that you shouldn't use the 00 flour for the NY style. 00 flours in general are more for a Neapolitan style dough, but your oven temperature is far too low for a dough made using 00 flour. Also, the King Arthur 00 flour you have on hand is a domestic clone and a poor imitation of the imported 00 flours in my opinion. However, you may be able to blend that flour with one of your other flours to use it up and end up with pizzas that may still taste pretty good.

Good luck.

Peter


Offline pizzaChops

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Re: Need NY dough recipe for my location
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2015, 02:08:06 PM »
I really appreciate the replies.  This is exactly the direction i was looking for.  I will start a thread when I get a pie done so you can view and critique.
-Chops

Offline pizzaChops

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Re: Need NY dough recipe for my location
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2015, 05:09:30 PM »
Hello Peter and Jonas or anyone who wants to help.  I am going to swing for the fences with my very first pie by also doing a pre-ferment.  I would like to do a 20% preferment for 8 hours at RT then add the remaining ingredients ball after kneading and do a 3 day CF in the fridge.  Based on 20% hydration I come up with using 38.84g of water and 38.84g of flour.  How much IDY based on the information I gave?  If I decided to double this recipe would I double the amount by grams of the water, flour and IDY?

I have read most of the attached posts provided by Peter but my questions here are based on finding out your opinions.

Thanks,
Chops

Offline jsaras

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Re: Need NY dough recipe for my location
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2015, 05:42:55 PM »
Using a preferment is fine, but it generally puts you more into the "S.W.A.G." territory especially if you're trying to define the initial preferment fermentation time. 

The following is what Tom Lehmann suggests for a 60% preferment, IDY at 0.25%

Use 60% of the recipe's flour to make the sponge. Mix this with all of the yeast.

Water weight for sponge = total weight of flour used in the recipe divided by 2.  This amount of water is subtracted from the total amount of water in the recipe.

Mix the sponge together for about 5 minutes at low or medium speed. Be sure to adjust the water temperature to give you a mixed sponge temperature of 75 to 80F (this means that you will probably need to use 70F water).

Transfer the mixed sponge to a suitably sized container and allow it to ferment for 3 to 5-hours.  The preferment can be used within a reasonable time after it collapses.

Transfer sponge back to the mixer and add the remainder of the flour, the salt, sugar (if used), oil and the remainder of the recipe's water (ice cold).

Mix the dough just until it comes smooth, the temperature should be between 80 and 85F. Then take it directly to the bench for scaling and balling (lightly floured bench is OK), place into dough container, wipe with oil and refrigerate overnight.

On the following day, remove the dough from the cooler and allow it to temper at room temperature for roughly 90-120 minutes, then begin using the dough.  You can re-knead and re-ball the dough right out of the refrigerator if it's soft, wet and gassy.

The dough will remain good to use for up to 3-hours after you begin opening it up into dough skins. Dough that has been left in the cooler will remain good for up to 3-days. 

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Offline pizzaChops

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Re: Need NY dough recipe for my location
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2015, 06:35:59 PM »
Sounds good.  I will follow this.

2 questions:

1) Why did you guys suggest not using oil for my first pie?  Should i graduate to oil or do you not like oil for your NY pies?

2) I'm going to also use the recipe you guys gave me and do a straight 3 day CF with no sponge.  Will i be able to taste a difference between the two or is it basically the same just speeding up the process?

Thanks,
Chops

Offline jsaras

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Need NY dough recipe for my location
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2015, 10:52:32 PM »
IMO you should have a reason for everything that you do to make the dough and a purpose for everything ingredient.  If you're able to make a simple thing really well with minimal ingredients, that indicates that you really know what you're doing. 

Not directly related to pizza, there's a hamburger place not too far from me (Bill's Burgers in Van Nuys) that always makes the "best burgers" lists.  He's an old dude that just puts salt and pepper on his patties and cooks them for 5 minutes on his flat top, but somehow he make a transcendant burger.  There a many places that make hamburgers with flavored buns, fancy sauces and cows that were personally raised by the chef, yet they can't make a burger as good as Bill.

To answer your question about oil specifically, its purpose it to make the dough more tender and/or  to keep the dough from getting too tough after it's cooled off (a concern with delivery pizza).  It also may make your slices do a bit better when reheated.  If the pizza is going to be consumed shortly after baking you're better off without it.  For me personally, 1% avocado oil puts my crusts exactly where I want them with my baking setup (about 4 minutes in a Blackstone). 

In my experience a preferment/sponge will yield a better texture (which is important) but the flavor difference isn't that noticeable.
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Offline pizzaChops

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Re: Need NY dough recipe for my location
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2015, 12:30:18 PM »
Thanks for the insight.  I am a CSUN grad and know Northridge well but never had there pleasure of going to Bill's in Van Nuys.  I did love Cupids tho. For the most part I'm a blue collar foodie.  I don't enjoy over-the-top places like Umami Burger or even the Counter.  They seem to be trying too hard.  I will start with the basics and go from there.  No pomp and circumstance for me.  I will start a new thread with pics and explanations as i'm going.

Offline jsaras

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Re: Need NY dough recipe for my location
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2015, 03:11:07 PM »
I graduated in 1990 and I currently live about a mile from campus.  Fab's Hot Dogs in Reseda has eaten Cupid's lunch
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