Author Topic: In need of assistance!!!  (Read 7607 times)

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Offline EEnotPizzaE

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2010, 01:08:51 PM »
I was only able to find Gold Medal "Better for Bread" for now....how will this change the formulation? I would love to make some dough today to use later in the week.

Thanks again,
Amie


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2010, 01:58:24 PM »
Amie,

Without trying the Better for Bread flour, it is hard to say what its effects will be on the finished dough. It has a protein content of about 12% versus the 12.7% protein content of the King Arthur bread flour. That is one of the reasons I mentioned the VWG as a possible dough addition to bridge the protein gap. Also, since you will be using a different mixer than what I use, that can also affect the dough processing steps and the condition of the finished dough. BTW, if you decide to use the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to convert flour weight to volume measurements, you will want to use the Harvest King flour in the pull-down menu. That flour was renamed Better for Bread over a year ago. As you can see, all of the above variables can affect the results you will achieve. However, for now, I would be inclined to use the dough formulation given below. You may have to tweak the amount of flour and/or water to get a nice, smooth, malleable dough but that is natural when there are several variables involved as mentioned above. The objective for now is for you to be able to make a credible pizza. Changes to the formulation can come later once you see if the finished pizza you end up with meets your needs and the needs of your son.

This is the proposed dough formulation, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

Better for Bread Flour (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (170.03%):
321.56 g  |  11.34 oz | 0.71 lbs
181.68 g  |  6.41 oz | 0.4 lbs
0.9 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
5.63 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
23.47 g | 0.83 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.17 tsp | 1.72 tbsp
13.51 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.39 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
546.75 g | 19.29 oz | 1.21 lbs | TF = 0.1252815
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.12343; dough is for one 14" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Peter




Offline EEnotPizzaE

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2010, 01:10:40 PM »
made my first 2 dough balls today....they seemed drier than I am used to......but I am only used to dough that didn't work....will let you know how they turn out in a couple of days.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2010, 01:29:31 PM »
Amie,

Did you weigh the flour and water?

Peter

Offline EEnotPizzaE

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2010, 02:02:23 PM »
I don't have a scale yet, so I used the online conversion this time.....I will go to a larger town to find a scale this weekend.

eta: i ordered a screen, docker, and scale today :)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 04:06:06 PM by EEnotPizzaE »

Offline EEnotPizzaE

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2010, 09:17:42 AM »
The supplies I ordered should all be in by early next week.....in the meantime I plan to try my "by volume" measured dough balls just for practice. I was wondering where I should place the fully built pizza in my gas oven? What temperature.....and approx. how long?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2010, 10:17:55 AM »
The supplies I ordered should all be in by early next week.....in the meantime I plan to try my "by volume" measured dough balls just for practice. I was wondering where I should place the fully built pizza in my gas oven? What temperature.....and approx. how long?


Amie,

I give the instructions on baking in Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217, as previously mentioned. However, I have an electric oven. So, your oven may not perform the same way. Maybe another member who has used the PJ clone dough in a gas oven can offer some guidance.

Peter

Offline EEnotPizzaE

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2010, 02:44:22 PM »
I am very pleased in the amount of difference in the dough....even going off conversions. It was extremely easy to work with....no need to use flour or oil when stretching. Very nice air pockets (will try to add a pic later) the color on the rim was a bit light....but this was a great prototype   ;) So excited to get my supplies! Once I get this figured out, I would like to make several dough balls at once and then use them one at a time......should I freeze the extras after the 2 day ferment?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 03:09:06 PM by EEnotPizzaE »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2010, 03:50:31 PM »
Amie, it sounds like you are making good progress.  Another thing you can do is see if he will eat their pan pizza.  If he will, the forum has a great recipe for that.   
I made a PH pan pizza that is very close to the original just last week and it was rather easy to do.
I also used Gold Medal better for bread flour.

I also posted a recipe for the sauce that is very close to PH's as well. Good luck. 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 05:54:45 PM by Tranman »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2010, 07:12:54 PM »
I am very pleased in the amount of difference in the dough....even going off conversions. It was extremely easy to work with....no need to use flour or oil when stretching. Very nice air pockets (will try to add a pic later) the color on the rim was a bit light....but this was a great prototype   ;) So excited to get my supplies! Once I get this figured out, I would like to make several dough balls at once and then use them one at a time......should I freeze the extras after the 2 day ferment?

Amie,

Once you post a photo or two and you report on the results in greater detail, I will try to address all of the issues, including the matter of freezing dough, the crust coloration matter, and possible changes that might make sense based on your results. I hope your son liked the pizza.

Peter


Offline UnConundrum

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2010, 08:44:37 PM »
Amie, where are you located?  Maybe we can point you to supply sources near you.

Offline EEnotPizzaE

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2010, 02:50:31 PM »
Ok, my supplies are in....and now that Spring Break is winding down I am ready to get some dough going. I will only make 2 dough balls at a time for now, but would eventually like to make 6 a week.....cooking one pie a day. I would assume I would need to adjust the yeast accordingly for the dough that will be in the fridge longer (not sure if there is a calculation for that adjustment though)

Warren - I am in Oklahoma, closest to Tulsa for bigger stores town-wise. From what I can tell for KA flours we have Whole Foods and Akins Natural foods that sell the brand, but I don't know exactly which types.  I will probably stick with better for bread for now.

I forgot to take any sliced pictures last time so I will just try to get pictures of my next attempt.

I have a few different brands of yeast, but they are all ADY...so I will make those changes as well.

Offline EEnotPizzaE

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2010, 09:14:09 PM »
I had some success...he ate it, but I am still not happy with the crust.

1. The color is too light
2. It fell kinda flat


eta bigger pictures
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:27:02 PM by EEnotPizzaE »

Offline EEnotPizzaE

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2010, 10:44:10 PM »
Now that the boys are in bed I will try to give details.

I used the weights Pete gave in reply 21 to my thread. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10417.msg92575.html#msg92575

* The dough looked and felt great....I used ady and I proofed it (although I just saw today that I should have used a (4/3*idy) conversion that was not accounted for)

* completed doughball was 19.00 oz

* 48 hour fridge ferment

* about a 4.5-5 hr rise time

* 14" pizza screen

* 515 degree preheated gas oven, screen directly on the rack about 7 inches from the bottom (any closer and they were getting too crispy....bottom turned out perfectly this time

I thought the doughball was the best looking one I have made, and the dough was very easy to work with. However, once in the oven it just didn't fluff up much at all....it just seemed to fall short and I wonder if the amount of ady didn't have a lot to do with this.

Overall, I am so very happy...and so glad to have found you guys.  He ate 4 pieces tonight!

If I can figure out how to fix those issues, I would love to start making it in bulk...at least the 6 I would need for one week....any ideas? Would I have to make all 6 balls separately with different ady & sugar amounts depending on which day I would want to pull it from the fridge? Is it possible to freeze them to where I could make a few weeks worth in advance?


« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:45:48 PM by EEnotPizzaE »

Offline EEnotPizzaE

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2010, 11:42:43 AM »
should I add dry milk to make it darken up more?

If so, how much?

Do you think a simple yeast change will fix the flat dough I ended up with this time?

I am kinda at a standstill...don't want the same issues to haunt me.....also, where do I find the changes to make to have some dough the same day, some with one day ferment...some with more than 2 days?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2010, 12:24:39 PM »
Amie,

Thanks for posting how you made the pizza. That's a big help.

It's possible that the mistake in the amount of yeast could have been a factor in the results you achieved, but in my opinion the differences shouldn't have materially changed the results. Also, the long temper time you used, 4.5-5 hours, should have compensated. But, the only way to know for sure is to repeat the dough formulation using the ADY in proper amount. You didn't indicate, but did you rehydrate your ADY before using? If not, that would have been a more likely cause of the results you achieved. In case you did not rehydrate the ADY, the proper way to do it is to take a small amount of the formula water, warm it to around 105 degrees F, add the ADY, stir it in, and let the mix rest for about 10 minutes. The rehydrated ADY can then be added to the rest of the formula water, which should be at the temperature noted in the PJ clone post you referenced in your reply. Going forward, I think you would do yourself a great service to try to get some IDY. It is sometimes sold in supermarkets as bread machine yeast, but if you plan on making a lot of pizzas, I would try to get a one-pound bag of IDY. Places like Sam's, Costco's, etc., sell it at low prices. Or you can order it online from several places. I use the SAF Red IDY, although a comparable Fleishchmann's IDY should also work.

If you can locate a source of vital wheat gluten, I think I would do so. The Better for Bread flour might benefit from some VWG supplementation, not only to increase its protein content but also to add a bit more crust color and flavor. VWG will help improve the volume expansion of the dough, although I don't think that that was behind the reduced oven spring you achieved. I am actually hoping that you forgot to rehydrate the ADY, since that would better explain the results you got.

If you did everything correctly, including the rehydration of the ADY, and the crust color was too light, you might try removing the pizza from the pizza screen toward the end of the bake and place it at the top oven rack position of your oven where it will get more top heat. I have managed to bake PJ clone pizzas entirely on my pizza stone, but if I add a lot of toppings to the pizza, I have found that it is often necessary to raise the pizza in the oven to get additional top crust coloration. I usually only need to keep the pizza on the top oven rack position for about a minute or so. Sometimes it is only 30 seconds or it might be between one and two minutes.

The matter of making a week's supply of dough balls is a tougher issue. To make the dough balls to be pretty much identical while using the same dough preparation and management methods would entail making each dough ball with a different amount of yeast, and possibly other changes. That is generally hard to do, time consuming, and is prone to error because of all of the variables involved in making several dough balls one at a time. I think I would rather increase the yeast in the basic dough formulation you used, let the dough balls sit at room temperature for about 30 minutes to get some initial fermentation going, and then freeze whatever dough balls you plan to use later during the week. I would then monitor the behavior of each dough ball as you use it, particularly during the temper period, to be sure that the dough ball does not overferment. If you decide to go the frozen dough ball route, I can tell you how I would defrost the dough balls to get the best results.

In lieu of freezing dough balls, another alternative is to make a bunch of par-baked crusts. Once made, they can be stored in the refrigerator for several days or frozen and later defrosted and used. I haven't tried to make par-baked PJ clone crusts, but I should be able to give you some guidance on how to do it if this approach is of value to you. Of course, we won't know if your son will eat a pizza that has been made from a par-baked crust, but it may we worth trying to see if he accepts or rejects it. You may also discover whether you and the rest of your family can tolerate such a pizza. I don't want to suggest that such pizzas lack merit. I have made them before for the NY style and they aren't bad, even if not as good as a freshly bake pizza.

There are perhaps other possibilities that you can consider in addition to those mentioned above, such as making, baking and freezing entire pizzas, or dressing and freezing pizzas made from par-baked crusts, but I think I would rather wait to see if just using par-baked crusts as mentioned above is a viable solution to your need to make several pizzas over the course of a week. Of course, if you don't mind experimenting, you can try some of the other alternative methods. And maybe other members who have successfully experimented with frozen pizzas can offer up some advice and suggestions.

I'd also like to suggest that you take a look at an "emergency" PJ clone dough formulation, such as the one at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. A pizza made using that dough formulation can usually be completed within 2 1/2-3 hours, from start to finish. The pizza won't be as good as a real PJ pizza, and you may want to use a thinner version for your purposes, but it may be a dough formulation you may want to modify and add to your repertoire, especially if your son will eat such a pizza.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2010, 12:38:19 PM »
should I add dry milk to make it darken up more?

If so, how much?

Do you think a simple yeast change will fix the flat dough I ended up with this time?

I am kinda at a standstill...don't want the same issues to haunt me.....also, where do I find the changes to make to have some dough the same day, some with one day ferment...some with more than 2 days?


Amie,

I addressed most of the above issues in my last post, as you were apparently entering a new one. But, as to whether dry milk can be added to the dough, the answer is yes. What I don't know at this point is what caused your crust not to have enough color. The dough formulation you used should have produced plenty of crust color because of the large amount of sugar called for in that dough formulation. However, it is possible that raising the pizza to a higher oven position as I discussed in my last post will solve the crust color problem.

Another member has used dry milk with success with a PJ clone dough formulation, so I know that it is possible to use dry milk, or any other form of milk, in the dough. Until you decide on how you want to proceed on this point, you might want to take a look at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672.html#msg63672, where I described a Peter Reinhart American style pizza that uses fresh milk in the dough. The combination of the milk and high level of sugar gave the finished crust a lot of color, perhaps too much.

Peter

Offline EEnotPizzaE

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2010, 12:42:45 PM »
ok...I do have IDY if Fleischmann's Breadmachine yeast in the fridge is IDY, so I guess I have both! I think I may have rehydrated idy thinking it was ady....may be my issue there, because the dough I made before I had the scale was better texture-wise and I had used the idy as idy at that time  :D I may just try to make 3 doughballs at a time....maybe the shortest ferment time of 24 hours....then longest would be 72...I feel I could get away with that without having to make too many changes to the dough....would you agree? I am sure I will eventually want to freeze the dough though, as I have a large freezer in the garage that I use often.

Thanks again for your help

Amie
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 01:57:27 PM by EEnotPizzaE »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2010, 01:47:50 PM »
Amie,

As you know, at the PJ clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html I described how to make PJ clone doughs with different windows of usability. Ideally, I think you would want to make just one type of dough for a window of usability of up to, say, three days. I think the dough formulation you used should satisfy that requirement. However, I would use somewhat different temper times for the three dough balls. The duration is something that you will learn with experience, also taking into account the time of year and the temperature in your kitchen.

Rehydrating IDY shouldn't be a problem although most of my PJ clone dough formulations call for using IDY in dry form. My recollection is that IDY uses a lower water temperature if it is rehydrated. I think it is 85 degrees F. Hopefully, your next doughs with the IDY used in dry form will solve the problems you experienced with your last dough.

I'm glad to hear that your son has been eating the pizzas you have been making. Are you using a Pizza Hut box to disguise the source of the pizzas? And is your son still scraping things off of the pizzas before eating? If he is eating the crusts, there are ways of increasing the nutritional content and value of the crusts, as by substituting a small amount of whole wheat flour or other non-white flours for some of the basic white flour. Kids are quick to pick up on flavors that they don't like so you may have to be careful about the amount of other flours you use.

Peter

Offline EEnotPizzaE

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Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2010, 05:36:04 PM »
Ok, a couple of things....

1. Even with the discussed changes, pizza came out flat....basically a thin crust....not sure what I am doing wrong. (will post pics of my flat pizza asap)

* made 3 dough balls at once, each weighed 19oz.....They have been in the fridge at the point I took them out for about a day and a half (didn't think that would be a big deal) They were covered with a hole poked in the top....lightly brushed with veg oil and in a lightly oiled bowl.  Again the dough sat out for about 4-5 hours (kept thinking it was going to rise more than it did....like the first couple of dough balls I made, it rose, just not like I was expecting)

* rolled out the dough just enough to put it on the screen

* lightly docked the middle of the dough (more on this later)

* put it in an oven between 500-525 degrees....about 6" from gas heat

It looks good, just expecting more height to the crust and rim....

2. This is why I assume they dock their rolled out dough (pic of PH hand tossed with toppings off)


 

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