Author Topic: In need of assistance!!!  (Read 8953 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2010, 09:17:42 AM »
The supplies I ordered should all be in by early next week.....in the meantime I plan to try my "by volume" measured dough balls just for practice. I was wondering where I should place the fully built pizza in my gas oven? What temperature.....and approx. how long?


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2010, 10:17:55 AM »
The supplies I ordered should all be in by early next week.....in the meantime I plan to try my "by volume" measured dough balls just for practice. I was wondering where I should place the fully built pizza in my gas oven? What temperature.....and approx. how long?

Amie,

I give the instructions on baking in Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217, as previously mentioned. However, I have an electric oven. So, your oven may not perform the same way. Maybe another member who has used the PJ clone dough in a gas oven can offer some guidance.

Peter

Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2010, 02:44:22 PM »
I am very pleased in the amount of difference in the dough....even going off conversions. It was extremely easy to work with....no need to use flour or oil when stretching. Very nice air pockets (will try to add a pic later) the color on the rim was a bit light....but this was a great prototype   ;) So excited to get my supplies! Once I get this figured out, I would like to make several dough balls at once and then use them one at a time......should I freeze the extras after the 2 day ferment?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 03:09:06 PM by EEnotPizzaE »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7154
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2010, 03:50:31 PM »
Amie, it sounds like you are making good progress.  Another thing you can do is see if he will eat their pan pizza.  If he will, the forum has a great recipe for that.   
I made a PH pan pizza that is very close to the original just last week and it was rather easy to do.
I also used Gold Medal better for bread flour.

I also posted a recipe for the sauce that is very close to PH's as well. Good luck. 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 05:54:45 PM by Tranman »

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2010, 07:12:54 PM »
I am very pleased in the amount of difference in the dough....even going off conversions. It was extremely easy to work with....no need to use flour or oil when stretching. Very nice air pockets (will try to add a pic later) the color on the rim was a bit light....but this was a great prototype   ;) So excited to get my supplies! Once I get this figured out, I would like to make several dough balls at once and then use them one at a time......should I freeze the extras after the 2 day ferment?

Amie,

Once you post a photo or two and you report on the results in greater detail, I will try to address all of the issues, including the matter of freezing dough, the crust coloration matter, and possible changes that might make sense based on your results. I hope your son liked the pizza.

Peter

Offline UnConundrum

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 226
  • Location: Bechtelsville, PA
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2010, 08:44:37 PM »
Amie, where are you located?  Maybe we can point you to supply sources near you.

Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2010, 02:50:31 PM »
Ok, my supplies are in....and now that Spring Break is winding down I am ready to get some dough going. I will only make 2 dough balls at a time for now, but would eventually like to make 6 a week.....cooking one pie a day. I would assume I would need to adjust the yeast accordingly for the dough that will be in the fridge longer (not sure if there is a calculation for that adjustment though)

Warren - I am in Oklahoma, closest to Tulsa for bigger stores town-wise. From what I can tell for KA flours we have Whole Foods and Akins Natural foods that sell the brand, but I don't know exactly which types.  I will probably stick with better for bread for now.

I forgot to take any sliced pictures last time so I will just try to get pictures of my next attempt.

I have a few different brands of yeast, but they are all ADY...so I will make those changes as well.

Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2010, 09:14:09 PM »
I had some success...he ate it, but I am still not happy with the crust.

1. The color is too light
2. It fell kinda flat


eta bigger pictures
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:27:02 PM by EEnotPizzaE »

Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2010, 10:44:10 PM »
Now that the boys are in bed I will try to give details.

I used the weights Pete gave in reply 21 to my thread. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10417.msg92575.html#msg92575

* The dough looked and felt great....I used ady and I proofed it (although I just saw today that I should have used a (4/3*idy) conversion that was not accounted for)

* completed doughball was 19.00 oz

* 48 hour fridge ferment

* about a 4.5-5 hr rise time

* 14" pizza screen

* 515 degree preheated gas oven, screen directly on the rack about 7 inches from the bottom (any closer and they were getting too crispy....bottom turned out perfectly this time

I thought the doughball was the best looking one I have made, and the dough was very easy to work with. However, once in the oven it just didn't fluff up much at all....it just seemed to fall short and I wonder if the amount of ady didn't have a lot to do with this.

Overall, I am so very happy...and so glad to have found you guys.  He ate 4 pieces tonight!

If I can figure out how to fix those issues, I would love to start making it in bulk...at least the 6 I would need for one week....any ideas? Would I have to make all 6 balls separately with different ady & sugar amounts depending on which day I would want to pull it from the fridge? Is it possible to freeze them to where I could make a few weeks worth in advance?


« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:45:48 PM by EEnotPizzaE »


Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2010, 11:42:43 AM »
should I add dry milk to make it darken up more?

If so, how much?

Do you think a simple yeast change will fix the flat dough I ended up with this time?

I am kinda at a standstill...don't want the same issues to haunt me.....also, where do I find the changes to make to have some dough the same day, some with one day ferment...some with more than 2 days?

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2010, 12:24:39 PM »
Amie,

Thanks for posting how you made the pizza. That's a big help.

It's possible that the mistake in the amount of yeast could have been a factor in the results you achieved, but in my opinion the differences shouldn't have materially changed the results. Also, the long temper time you used, 4.5-5 hours, should have compensated. But, the only way to know for sure is to repeat the dough formulation using the ADY in proper amount. You didn't indicate, but did you rehydrate your ADY before using? If not, that would have been a more likely cause of the results you achieved. In case you did not rehydrate the ADY, the proper way to do it is to take a small amount of the formula water, warm it to around 105 degrees F, add the ADY, stir it in, and let the mix rest for about 10 minutes. The rehydrated ADY can then be added to the rest of the formula water, which should be at the temperature noted in the PJ clone post you referenced in your reply. Going forward, I think you would do yourself a great service to try to get some IDY. It is sometimes sold in supermarkets as bread machine yeast, but if you plan on making a lot of pizzas, I would try to get a one-pound bag of IDY. Places like Sam's, Costco's, etc., sell it at low prices. Or you can order it online from several places. I use the SAF Red IDY, although a comparable Fleishchmann's IDY should also work.

If you can locate a source of vital wheat gluten, I think I would do so. The Better for Bread flour might benefit from some VWG supplementation, not only to increase its protein content but also to add a bit more crust color and flavor. VWG will help improve the volume expansion of the dough, although I don't think that that was behind the reduced oven spring you achieved. I am actually hoping that you forgot to rehydrate the ADY, since that would better explain the results you got.

If you did everything correctly, including the rehydration of the ADY, and the crust color was too light, you might try removing the pizza from the pizza screen toward the end of the bake and place it at the top oven rack position of your oven where it will get more top heat. I have managed to bake PJ clone pizzas entirely on my pizza stone, but if I add a lot of toppings to the pizza, I have found that it is often necessary to raise the pizza in the oven to get additional top crust coloration. I usually only need to keep the pizza on the top oven rack position for about a minute or so. Sometimes it is only 30 seconds or it might be between one and two minutes.

The matter of making a week's supply of dough balls is a tougher issue. To make the dough balls to be pretty much identical while using the same dough preparation and management methods would entail making each dough ball with a different amount of yeast, and possibly other changes. That is generally hard to do, time consuming, and is prone to error because of all of the variables involved in making several dough balls one at a time. I think I would rather increase the yeast in the basic dough formulation you used, let the dough balls sit at room temperature for about 30 minutes to get some initial fermentation going, and then freeze whatever dough balls you plan to use later during the week. I would then monitor the behavior of each dough ball as you use it, particularly during the temper period, to be sure that the dough ball does not overferment. If you decide to go the frozen dough ball route, I can tell you how I would defrost the dough balls to get the best results.

In lieu of freezing dough balls, another alternative is to make a bunch of par-baked crusts. Once made, they can be stored in the refrigerator for several days or frozen and later defrosted and used. I haven't tried to make par-baked PJ clone crusts, but I should be able to give you some guidance on how to do it if this approach is of value to you. Of course, we won't know if your son will eat a pizza that has been made from a par-baked crust, but it may we worth trying to see if he accepts or rejects it. You may also discover whether you and the rest of your family can tolerate such a pizza. I don't want to suggest that such pizzas lack merit. I have made them before for the NY style and they aren't bad, even if not as good as a freshly bake pizza.

There are perhaps other possibilities that you can consider in addition to those mentioned above, such as making, baking and freezing entire pizzas, or dressing and freezing pizzas made from par-baked crusts, but I think I would rather wait to see if just using par-baked crusts as mentioned above is a viable solution to your need to make several pizzas over the course of a week. Of course, if you don't mind experimenting, you can try some of the other alternative methods. And maybe other members who have successfully experimented with frozen pizzas can offer up some advice and suggestions.

I'd also like to suggest that you take a look at an "emergency" PJ clone dough formulation, such as the one at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. A pizza made using that dough formulation can usually be completed within 2 1/2-3 hours, from start to finish. The pizza won't be as good as a real PJ pizza, and you may want to use a thinner version for your purposes, but it may be a dough formulation you may want to modify and add to your repertoire, especially if your son will eat such a pizza.

Peter

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2010, 12:38:19 PM »
should I add dry milk to make it darken up more?

If so, how much?

Do you think a simple yeast change will fix the flat dough I ended up with this time?

I am kinda at a standstill...don't want the same issues to haunt me.....also, where do I find the changes to make to have some dough the same day, some with one day ferment...some with more than 2 days?

Amie,

I addressed most of the above issues in my last post, as you were apparently entering a new one. But, as to whether dry milk can be added to the dough, the answer is yes. What I don't know at this point is what caused your crust not to have enough color. The dough formulation you used should have produced plenty of crust color because of the large amount of sugar called for in that dough formulation. However, it is possible that raising the pizza to a higher oven position as I discussed in my last post will solve the crust color problem.

Another member has used dry milk with success with a PJ clone dough formulation, so I know that it is possible to use dry milk, or any other form of milk, in the dough. Until you decide on how you want to proceed on this point, you might want to take a look at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672.html#msg63672, where I described a Peter Reinhart American style pizza that uses fresh milk in the dough. The combination of the milk and high level of sugar gave the finished crust a lot of color, perhaps too much.

Peter

Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2010, 12:42:45 PM »
ok...I do have IDY if Fleischmann's Breadmachine yeast in the fridge is IDY, so I guess I have both! I think I may have rehydrated idy thinking it was ady....may be my issue there, because the dough I made before I had the scale was better texture-wise and I had used the idy as idy at that time  :D I may just try to make 3 doughballs at a time....maybe the shortest ferment time of 24 hours....then longest would be 72...I feel I could get away with that without having to make too many changes to the dough....would you agree? I am sure I will eventually want to freeze the dough though, as I have a large freezer in the garage that I use often.

Thanks again for your help

Amie
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 01:57:27 PM by EEnotPizzaE »

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2010, 01:47:50 PM »
Amie,

As you know, at the PJ clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html I described how to make PJ clone doughs with different windows of usability. Ideally, I think you would want to make just one type of dough for a window of usability of up to, say, three days. I think the dough formulation you used should satisfy that requirement. However, I would use somewhat different temper times for the three dough balls. The duration is something that you will learn with experience, also taking into account the time of year and the temperature in your kitchen.

Rehydrating IDY shouldn't be a problem although most of my PJ clone dough formulations call for using IDY in dry form. My recollection is that IDY uses a lower water temperature if it is rehydrated. I think it is 85 degrees F. Hopefully, your next doughs with the IDY used in dry form will solve the problems you experienced with your last dough.

I'm glad to hear that your son has been eating the pizzas you have been making. Are you using a Pizza Hut box to disguise the source of the pizzas? And is your son still scraping things off of the pizzas before eating? If he is eating the crusts, there are ways of increasing the nutritional content and value of the crusts, as by substituting a small amount of whole wheat flour or other non-white flours for some of the basic white flour. Kids are quick to pick up on flavors that they don't like so you may have to be careful about the amount of other flours you use.

Peter

Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2010, 05:36:04 PM »
Ok, a couple of things....

1. Even with the discussed changes, pizza came out flat....basically a thin crust....not sure what I am doing wrong. (will post pics of my flat pizza asap)

* made 3 dough balls at once, each weighed 19oz.....They have been in the fridge at the point I took them out for about a day and a half (didn't think that would be a big deal) They were covered with a hole poked in the top....lightly brushed with veg oil and in a lightly oiled bowl.  Again the dough sat out for about 4-5 hours (kept thinking it was going to rise more than it did....like the first couple of dough balls I made, it rose, just not like I was expecting)

* rolled out the dough just enough to put it on the screen

* lightly docked the middle of the dough (more on this later)

* put it in an oven between 500-525 degrees....about 6" from gas heat

It looks good, just expecting more height to the crust and rim....

2. This is why I assume they dock their rolled out dough (pic of PH hand tossed with toppings off)

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2010, 06:38:10 PM »
Amie,

When you said that you rolled out the dough, did you mean using a rolling pin?

Docking is usually used to minimize the occurrence of large bubbles in the finished crust. It is frequently used with dough that is on the cold/cool side at the time that the dough ball is to be opened up to form a skin. That is not the desired temperature but workers often resort to docking when there isn't enough time to allow the dough balls to warm up to the desired temperature, as might occur, for example, during rush periods.

Also, can you tell me whether a typical 14" hand-tossed style PH pizza such as you have been buying from PH is heavy on the sauce and/or cheese and does it have over 40 pepperoni slices on it, as the photo at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10417.msg91927.html#msg91927 suggests? And does such a pizza look like the pizza in the photo?

Peter


« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 07:07:06 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2010, 08:21:19 PM »
I have been using a roller because 1. I was having a hard time forming the dough onto the screen without pushing it down too much and 2. I have a hard time getting the dough even with stretching...one side is always too thick, while the other is too thin.

The dough always has those dimples on it like the picture in my last post, so I assumed they must always dock the dough in the pan/screen.

It's not usually too heavy on sauce or cheese, but they know me by name and tend to put a ton of pepperoni on the pizzas. Crust varies from day to day, but does have a darker color than what I keep getting, and the crust rim is much taller than what I am seeing. The first two pizzas I made since joining this group worked out better than the ones lately. I have been trying to think of differences...

* After fridge fermenting (I am not doing a rise before putting them in the fridge) they have been getting tacky, so I have put down a dusting of flour to get them easier to work with. 
* the dough rolling
* the dough hasn't been rising as much (today I even put the oven to 250 and had the bowl on top of the stove...still not much)






Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2010, 09:44:44 PM »
Amie,

Since you have been buying "hand-tossed" style pizzas from Pizza Hut, they (Pizza Hut) would not be using a rolling pin. The dough balls are opened up and formed and stretched into skins entirely by hand. The problem with using a rolling pin is that it forces out most of the gases in the dough and will usually bake up with a flat and dense crust with poor oven spring. Also, if you roll the dough right out to the edge (to 14" in your case), you won't get a proper rim and the oven spring will be minimal. The only way to overcome this problem is to learn how to open up dough balls and form and stretch skins by hand. To make this exercise easier, I wouldn't let the dough balls temper for several hours after removing them from the refrigerator, as you apparently have been doing. That can make the dough balls much more extensible and hard to get a uniform skin thickness. I would cut the temper time down to about an hour or so.

Docking is not done right on the screen because that can cause the dough to be forced into the openings of the screen and get stuck to it. Docking is done on the work surface. Once the docked skin is formed to the correct size, it is lifted from the work surface onto the screen and dressed with the sauce, cheese and toppings.

The dough formulation you have been using has plenty of sugar in it so you should be able to get plenty of crust color. Pizza Hut uses a conveyor oven with a lot of top heat to produce good crust browning so adjustments may have to be made when using a home oven, such as lifting the pizza off of the screen toward the end of the bake onto the top oven rack position, where it can get more top heat to yield more top crust color. I don't have a gas oven, so there may be other kinds of adjustments to get the same results in your oven as I do in mine.

It sounds to me that what you need most to do at this point is to develop your dough handling skills and to learn how best to use your particular oven. We all go through this when learning to make pizzas.

Peter


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2010, 10:00:44 PM »
It's not usually too heavy on sauce or cheese, but they know me by name and tend to put a ton of pepperoni on the pizzas.

Amie,

The reason I asked about the sauce, cheese and pepperoni was to ascertain whether the skins you have been making were too thin because of insufficient dough. According to the Pizza Hut nutrition data, a baked 14" hand-tossed style pepperoni pizza weighs around 35 ounces. The dough weight that you have been using is 19 ounces. The big chains tend to use about 7 ounces of cheese and about 5 ounces pizza sauce. If 40+ pepperoni slices are used, the weight for the pepperoni slices should be between 2-3 ounces. If you do the math, you will see that there is around one ounce to play around with. I am not sure that increasing the dough weight by an ounce will make that much of a difference in your results. This leads me to believe that the reduced crust height is perhaps more likely due to the way you have been preparing the skins rather than the weight of the dough. If you can get the dough management right, we can always increase the amount of dough if called for.

Peter

Edit: I should add that there are losses in pizza weight during baking. I believe that those losses are less at PH than in a home oven. If you can weigh a pepperoni pizza from PH sometime, as soon as possible after purchasing, that information may be helpful in ascertaining the best dough weight to use. There will also be variations in weights from one PH pizza to another because of normal variations in preparation, especially with different workers and different time pressures.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 10:22:11 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2010, 09:55:19 AM »
Ok, I ended up throwing away my 3rd doughball  :-\ The second one I stretched the dough, no rolling and it was a good thin crust pizza....still not enough rising in the dough....I just admitted defeat that I must have made some error when the dough was made. I made two balls of dough about a day and a half ago that I plan on using one tonight....we shall see. If I still have issues, I will come back and give more details to see if I can figure out where I am going wrong.


Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2010, 12:27:01 PM »
This time the dough won't stay put....wants to make it's way back into a ball :( What did I mess up this time??

ETA: I let the dough rise longer on top of the oven after it was used to make lunch for my 2 year old....seemed to do the trick....hope to have nice pics later!

Latest edit: to include results/pictures

Ok, well....it started out well enough....I do think I will have to raise the pizza up a few inches in my gas oven though.  The crust was good and fluffy, but it wasn't getting brown enough on the rim....so I left it in a bit longer....and the bottom center fried  :( and as you can see...I didn't dock the dough this time just to see what would happen
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 01:44:13 PM by EEnotPizzaE »

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2010, 03:12:55 PM »
Amie,

Did you re-work, re-knead or re-shape the dough ball before you decided to make a skin out of it? The dough recipe you used should yield a dough skin that is quite extensible, especially if you let the dough ball sit at room temperature for about 1 to 1 1/2 hours before shaping and stretching it.

It is possible that part of your problem is with your gas oven. As I have noted in the Papa John's thread, when I want more top crust color, I move the pizza off of the screen to a higher oven rack position where it can get more top heat. I typically do this when I use a lot of toppings. Otherwise, if I let the pizza remain on the lower oven rack position too long, the bottom crust can brown too much. You might want to go back to the PJ clone dough/pizza thread and read some of the posts on how I execute this move.

Next time you make a fresh dough batch, please take notes on everything you do and relate them back to me. I can take as much detail as you can tolerate. Maybe you are doing something wrong that I can spot from your explanation.

Peter

Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2010, 03:50:50 PM »
Moved up the second try.....


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2010, 04:06:19 PM »
Amie,

Now, that is a much better looking pie. From the crust colors, I think you can leave the pizza at the lower oven position a bit longer and, if needed, a bit longer at the upper oven rack position also.

Let us know how your son likes this pizza. I am also interested in whether you and the rest of your family like the pizza also.

Peter

Offline EEnotPizzaE

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: In need of assistance!!!
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2010, 04:09:50 PM »
I think I will gain 20 lbs on this endeavor, lol, as my husband, 2 year old and I eat the rejects.

I hope he eats it....will keep you posted

eta: in the box  ;)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 04:28:08 PM by EEnotPizzaE »