In need of assistance!!!

[Pete-zza]

Amie,

When you said that you rolled out the dough, did you mean using a rolling pin?

Docking is usually used to minimize the occurrence of large bubbles in the finished crust. It is frequently used with dough that is on the cold/cool side at the time that the dough ball is to be opened up to form a skin. That is not the desired temperature but workers often resort to docking when there isn't enough time to allow the dough balls to warm up to the desired temperature, as might occur, for example, during rush periods.

Also, can you tell me whether a typical 14" hand-tossed style PH pizza such as you have been buying from PH is heavy on the sauce and/or cheese and does it have over 40 pepperoni slices on it, as the photo at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10417.msg91927.html#msg91927 suggests? And does such a pizza look like the pizza in the photo?

Peter

[EEnotPizzaE]

I have been using a roller because 1. I was having a hard time forming the dough onto the screen without pushing it down too much and 2. I have a hard time getting the dough even with stretching...one side is always too thick, while the other is too thin.

The dough always has those dimples on it like the picture in my last post, so I assumed they must always dock the dough in the pan/screen.

It's not usually too heavy on sauce or cheese, but they know me by name and tend to put a ton of pepperoni on the pizzas. Crust varies from day to day, but does have a darker color than what I keep getting, and the crust rim is much taller than what I am seeing. The first two pizzas I made since joining this group worked out better than the ones lately. I have been trying to think of differences...

* After fridge fermenting (I am not doing a rise before putting them in the fridge) they have been getting tacky, so I have put down a dusting of flour to get them easier to work with. 
* the dough rolling
* the dough hasn't been rising as much (today I even put the oven to 250 and had the bowl on top of the stove...still not much)

[Pete-zza]

Amie,

Since you have been buying "hand-tossed" style pizzas from Pizza Hut, they (Pizza Hut) would not be using a rolling pin. The dough balls are opened up and formed and stretched into skins entirely by hand. The problem with using a rolling pin is that it forces out most of the gases in the dough and will usually bake up with a flat and dense crust with poor oven spring. Also, if you roll the dough right out to the edge (to 14" in your case), you won't get a proper rim and the oven spring will be minimal. The only way to overcome this problem is to learn how to open up dough balls and form and stretch skins by hand. To make this exercise easier, I wouldn't let the dough balls temper for several hours after removing them from the refrigerator, as you apparently have been doing. That can make the dough balls much more extensible and hard to get a uniform skin thickness. I would cut the temper time down to about an hour or so.

Docking is not done right on the screen because that can cause the dough to be forced into the openings of the screen and get stuck to it. Docking is done on the work surface. Once the docked skin is formed to the correct size, it is lifted from the work surface onto the screen and dressed with the sauce, cheese and toppings.

The dough formulation you have been using has plenty of sugar in it so you should be able to get plenty of crust color. Pizza Hut uses a conveyor oven with a lot of top heat to produce good crust browning so adjustments may have to be made when using a home oven, such as lifting the pizza off of the screen toward the end of the bake onto the top oven rack position, where it can get more top heat to yield more top crust color. I don't have a gas oven, so there may be other kinds of adjustments to get the same results in your oven as I do in mine.

It sounds to me that what you need most to do at this point is to develop your dough handling skills and to learn how best to use your particular oven. We all go through this when learning to make pizzas.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

It's not usually too heavy on sauce or cheese, but they know me by name and tend to put a ton of pepperoni on the pizzas.

Amie,

The reason I asked about the sauce, cheese and pepperoni was to ascertain whether the skins you have been making were too thin because of insufficient dough. According to the Pizza Hut nutrition data, a baked 14" hand-tossed style pepperoni pizza weighs around 35 ounces. The dough weight that you have been using is 19 ounces. The big chains tend to use about 7 ounces of cheese and about 5 ounces pizza sauce. If 40+ pepperoni slices are used, the weight for the pepperoni slices should be between 2-3 ounces. If you do the math, you will see that there is around one ounce to play around with. I am not sure that increasing the dough weight by an ounce will make that much of a difference in your results. This leads me to believe that the reduced crust height is perhaps more likely due to the way you have been preparing the skins rather than the weight of the dough. If you can get the dough management right, we can always increase the amount of dough if called for.

Peter

Edit: I should add that there are losses in pizza weight during baking. I believe that those losses are less at PH than in a home oven. If you can weigh a pepperoni pizza from PH sometime, as soon as possible after purchasing, that information may be helpful in ascertaining the best dough weight to use. There will also be variations in weights from one PH pizza to another because of normal variations in preparation, especially with different workers and different time pressures.

[EEnotPizzaE]

Ok, I ended up throwing away my 3rd doughball  The second one I stretched the dough, no rolling and it was a good thin crust pizza....still not enough rising in the dough....I just admitted defeat that I must have made some error when the dough was made. I made two balls of dough about a day and a half ago that I plan on using one tonight....we shall see. If I still have issues, I will come back and give more details to see if I can figure out where I am going wrong.

[EEnotPizzaE]

This time the dough won't stay put....wants to make it's way back into a ball What did I mess up this time??

ETA: I let the dough rise longer on top of the oven after it was used to make lunch for my 2 year old....seemed to do the trick....hope to have nice pics later!

Latest edit: to include results/pictures

Ok, well....it started out well enough....I do think I will have to raise the pizza up a few inches in my gas oven though.  The crust was good and fluffy, but it wasn't getting brown enough on the rim....so I left it in a bit longer....and the bottom center fried  and as you can see...I didn't dock the dough this time just to see what would happen

[Pete-zza]

Amie,

Did you re-work, re-knead or re-shape the dough ball before you decided to make a skin out of it? The dough recipe you used should yield a dough skin that is quite extensible, especially if you let the dough ball sit at room temperature for about 1 to 1 1/2 hours before shaping and stretching it.

It is possible that part of your problem is with your gas oven. As I have noted in the Papa John's thread, when I want more top crust color, I move the pizza off of the screen to a higher oven rack position where it can get more top heat. I typically do this when I use a lot of toppings. Otherwise, if I let the pizza remain on the lower oven rack position too long, the bottom crust can brown too much. You might want to go back to the PJ clone dough/pizza thread and read some of the posts on how I execute this move.

Next time you make a fresh dough batch, please take notes on everything you do and relate them back to me. I can take as much detail as you can tolerate. Maybe you are doing something wrong that I can spot from your explanation.

Peter

[EEnotPizzaE]

Moved up the second try.....

[Pete-zza]

Amie,

Now, that is a much better looking pie. From the crust colors, I think you can leave the pizza at the lower oven position a bit longer and, if needed, a bit longer at the upper oven rack position also.

Let us know how your son likes this pizza. I am also interested in whether you and the rest of your family like the pizza also.

Peter

[EEnotPizzaE]

I think I will gain 20 lbs on this endeavor, lol, as my husband, 2 year old and I eat the rejects.

I hope he eats it....will keep you posted

eta: in the box 

[parallei]

That's a fine looking pie!  If your son will not eat it, send it to me....

[tcarlisle]

It looks right.You did find the pizza hut sauce clone recipes, right? 

[EEnotPizzaE]

Yes I found the sauce clones.....used the easy one with paste & water.....thanks =)

[Jackie Tran]

Great looking pie E!  Nice nice work! 

[EEnotPizzaE]

Thanks everyone! That was the first set of pics I was happy to upload, lol. I still have a few things to iron out, but it is getting better. I watched some of the youtube pizza shaping videos which helped a ton too. The center of the pie is still a tiny bit on the thin side, so I may try a larger thickness factor next time. He did eat some of it....so there is hope!

[Pete-zza]

Amie,

I mentioned it earlier in this thread but you might want to try my version of an "emergency" Papa John's clone dough as described at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. Its main advantage is that it takes only 2 1/2-3 hours to make the pizza from start to finish. So, you should know quite quickly whether the pizza passes muster with your son. Also, the finished crust is thicker than the pizzas you have been making. But even that parameter can be adjusted at will using the expanded dough calculating tool.

The emergency PJ clone dough can also be used to make a dessert pizza. See, for example, Replies 107/108 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg80757.html#msg80757 and Reply 131 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg80989.html#msg80989. Of course, if sugar is to be avoided or minimized, then you might stick to the regular pizzas.

Peter

[EEnotPizzaE]

Pete-zza, or anyone in the know....When using the expanded dough calculator results, I notice you always differenciate between the type of flour. Do you do this just so people know what type was used, or is there some conversion to be done if using another brand of flour? For instance, I am looking at your emergency dough you mentioned....would the numbers need to be adjusted in order to use Better for Bread flour? If so, what entry do I need to adjust?

Thanks in advance,
Amie

[Pete-zza]

Amie,

All of the dough calculating tools, including the expanded dough calculating tool, just say "Flour" in the output tables. As a convenience to our members, and also for me to remember which flour I used, I usually modify the output text of the tool to state the type and brand of flour used, or the blend used (such as one including a flour and VWG). Sometimes it is appropriate to change the baker's percent for hydration when a different flour is used than the one I mentioned or used, but I don't think it should be necessary in your case when you use the Better for Bread flour instead of the King Arthur bread flour. If you said that you wanted to use, say, all-purpose flour, then I would recommend lowering the hydration baker's percent. The same would apply to other ingredients if you decided that you wanted to increase or decrease their amounts.

The emergency dough formulation you mentioned uses a combination of KABF and VWG. In your case, I think you should be able to use just the Better for Bread flour alone and see how that works. Adjustments can be made later if necessary.

Peter

[EEnotPizzaE]

I didn't really care for the emergency dough....so I will just leave it for emergencies I do have another question though. Would changing the thickness factor aide in making the center of the pie thicker? I ask because the PH handtossed has a thicker center than anything I have made....between the bottom crust and the toppings there's a larger chewy crust section. Any ideas on how to achieve this? Would adjusting the thickness factor an 1/8-1/4 inch resolve this? Even when I have tried to only leave a small outer lip to the crust, the center still comes out rather flat.

[Pete-zza]

Amie,

Part of the crust thickness is tied to how the skin is shaped. However, if you increase the thickness factor, the total weight of the dough will go up and, all else being equal, you should end up with a thicker overall crust. I believe the dough formulation you have been using (at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10417.msg92575.html#msg92575) calls for a nominal thickness factor of 0.12343 and a dough weight of 19.29 ounces after applying a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. You might use the Dough Weight option of the expanded dough calculating tool and try a dough ball weight of 20 or 21 ounces (and use a bowl residue compensation factor). After revisiting the PH data recently, it seemed to me that possibly 19 ounces was a bit on the low side to begin with, mainly because of the losses that occur during baking.

I'm glad that you tried the emergency PJ clone dough even if you did not like it. I was looking for a way for you to make pizzas on short notice that your son would eat and that the rest of your family might also enjoy. Once you get the dough formulation where you want it, you will have to address how to make multiple dough balls to use over the course of a week or so without having to spend an inordinate amount of time to make and manage the dough balls.

Please keep us posted on your next iteration.

Peter