Author Topic: Bromated Bleached vs Unbromated Bleached  (Read 5967 times)

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Offline dms

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Re: Bromated Bleached vs Unbromated Bleached
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2010, 07:28:11 PM »
Remember when Domino's or Pizza Hut was actually good?  


No. 

(And I suspect most of the quality deterioration happened when they moved most things out of the store, to a commissary, and is only superficially related to losing potassium bromate.) 


Offline scott r

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Re: Bromated Bleached vs Unbromated Bleached
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2010, 07:52:06 PM »
Thats a great point, and im sure it has something to do with it, however,  I have been playing around with the cocktail of additives that these places use.  What I have found is that while it does provide the pizza with some of the positive characteristics that bromate can provide, it unfortunately has the by product of making that totally generic wonder bread sort of thing out of the crust.   After testing I can say that these characteristics are definitely caused by the "extra" ingredients in the dough and not by mixing or proofing issues. 

Offline Bill374

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Re: Bromated Bleached vs Unbromated Bleached
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2010, 11:31:40 AM »
........ Non bromated flours have been available and widely used by the bread baking industry for years, so why is bromated flour so rampant in the pizza industry?  .........

Perhaps the reason the bread baking industry doesn't employ bromated flours is they must include the ingredients on the label.
Given the widespread belief bromate is cancer causing, the last thing bread/bakery industry needs is to advertise bromated flour on the nutritional label.
The baking industry has specialized equipment, exotic dough conditioners that they can workaround the lack of bromated flour.
The bakery industry could make bread out of straw if absolutely necessary.
Read about the Chorleywood Process, it's so far removed from what we are attempting to do it's absurd.
Just Google "chorleywood process".


Individual pizza operators not being specifically required to list ingredients prefer to employ the flour that performs the best for their operation.
I would respectfully disagree it has much to do with inexperienced employees.


.

Offline Bill374

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Re: Bromated Bleached vs Unbromated Bleached
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2010, 12:07:03 PM »
dms,

What you say is correct to the best of my knowledge. KA is said to have the tighest specs in the industry. For example, for protein content, the delta is +/- 0.2%. I believe that Bay State Milling uses +/- 0.3% for their own flours. Other millers have wider specs than those.

Peter

Peter,

Very interesting specifications.

Could you be so kind as to post the complete side by side specs of Bay State Milling's Unbleached Unbromated "Bouncer" and King Arthur's "Sir Lancelot".

---------------------------------------------------------------
I tend to agree with Scott123 that these two flours are probably bagged on the same bagging line, the name on the bag depending only on what particular order is being fulfilled.

Bay State also provides flour for Dawn Foods labeled DDA Hi Gluten.
Who knows how many more private labels they bag for.

I own a debt of gratitude to Scott123 for moving me away from King Arthur flour.
Everything about the flour is exactly as Scott states. It is tough in every aspect and generally problematic.
I beat my head against the wall with King Arthur flour for several years before stumbling upon Scott123's posts.
Since leaving King Arthur behind I am now close to producing baked items (and pizza dough) that are what I envisioned when I began baking.
.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bromated Bleached vs Unbromated Bleached
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2010, 12:24:48 PM »
Very interesting specifications.

Could you be so kind as to post the complete side by side specs of Bay State Milling's Unbleached Unbromated "Bouncer" and King Arthur's "Sir Lancelot".


Bill374,

Bay State Milling does not publish the specs for their flours. I have tried on several occasions to try to get the specs through online searching but have not been able to find anything specific about their flours. The +/- 0.3% figure came from a discussion I had with a Quality Assurance staff member at Bay State Milling. I was told, however, that if one requested specs for a particular BSM flour they would make them available in some manner. You can see the specs for the KASL at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html.

Peter

Offline Cayman

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Re: Bromated Bleached vs Unbromated Bleached
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2010, 12:38:09 PM »
I can't speak to flour specifically, but I can tell you that you may be surprised as to how many companies get their product from a single company. Example being, when I was a kid my father took us on a vacation during which we visited a generic pretzel factory. While there we saw that the conveyer belt was bringing pretzels down and dropping them into several different companies bags. All the same product too. Being a young age, I was shocked to see this. Fast forward 25 years and I am now in the grocery business working for a retailer who has many different companies making products for us that we put our name on. Some of these "private label" products are the exact same as the national brand who happens to be making the product for us. :)

Offline scott r

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Re: Bromated Bleached vs Unbromated Bleached
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2010, 12:57:25 PM »
Perhaps the reason the bread baking industry doesn't employ bromated flours is they must include the ingredients on the label.
Given the widespread belief bromate is cancer causing, the last thing bread/bakery industry needs is to advertise bromated flour on the nutritional label.
The baking industry has specialized equipment, exotic dough conditioners that they can workaround the lack of bromated flour.
The bakery industry could make bread out of straw if absolutely necessary.
Read about the Chorleywood Process, it's so far removed from what we are attempting to do it's absurd.
Just Google "chorleywood process".


Individual pizza operators not being specifically required to list ingredients prefer to employ the flour that performs the best for their operation.
I would respectfully disagree it has much to do with inexperienced employees.


.


That makes sense, and I agree that its not all about being able to use less skilled workers.  The main point I wanted to get across in this thread was that the use of bromate does make it much easier to produce a great pizza if you don't have a high temperature oven.    I also want to point out that the bread industry does indeed still use bromated flours.  I know for a fact that it is being used in the most popular italian bread bakery in Pittsburgh, and also one of the most popular in Boston.   These are just two markets that I am intimate with, so im sure its being used elsewhere as well.   Its use is definitely not nearly as wide spread as it is in the pizza industry, though.   



Offline Wallman

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Re: Bromated Bleached vs Unbromated Bleached
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2010, 09:04:57 AM »
Costco by me (Northern Virginia) sells bromated General Mills All Trumps in 25# bags for maybe $10-$12. Don't quote me on the price, I bought my bag some time back.  I find the flour makes dough that is easier to use the KASL and not quite as "leathery."

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Bromated Bleached vs Unbromated Bleached
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2010, 08:13:23 PM »
Stumbled across this post on PMQ.  I like the conclusion of Toms response.

http://pizzatoday.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001436;p=1#000001

-marc