Author Topic: How long is too long to proof dough?  (Read 17850 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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How long is too long to proof dough?
« on: March 09, 2010, 11:51:02 AM »
I did a quick search but could not find the answer I was looking for.

How long do you typically proof dough for when it comes out of the fridge?  As long as it takes to JUST reach room temperature?   

Can you overproof dough?   

I typically proof on the counter covered for about 3-4 hours.  Can dough sit up to 6-8 hours?  Would that be too long?  Would that be detrimental?

I have also proofed dough using a hot cup of water in the microwave or the oven.  I haven't notice a difference in the end product b/t these techniques vs proof on the counter at room temp.  What are your thoughts?


Online Pete-zza

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2010, 12:27:04 PM »
Tranman,

The answer depends on several factors, including the type of flour used, the hydration of the dough, the type of leavening system used (e.g., commercial yeast versus wild yeast), the temperature of the dough when it comes out of the refrigerator, and the temperature of the room where the dough is to temper. You will often read about letting a dough temper until it reaches room temperature. That might work if the room temperature is around 60-70 degrees F, but if it is below that range or if your room temperature is in the 80s or higher (which is possible in a pizzeria with the oven running), the dough may not temper properly (too little or too much). Technically, one should be able to use a dough when it has a temperature of around 60-62 degrees F. I have found that to be too low for my purposes, so I look for a temperature of around 70 degrees F. The temper time will depend on the room temperature, and will typically be longer in the winter than in the summer.

Doughs made with high-gluten flour can tolerate longer temper times than doughs made with weaker flours. Once a dough reaches the proper temper temperature, it can usually hold for a few more hours. I recall one member using a nine-hour temper period, apparently with satisfactory results. Three or four hours is a more typical hold period after the dough has tempered sufficiently to be used. If left to temper too long, a dough can overferment and have poor performance. It might even become completely unusable. Doughs that are on the verge of overproofing but still usable can be difficult to handle and shape. They might be on the damp side with a weakened gluten structure because of the effects of enzymes that degrade the gluten.

Cold fermented doughs made using natural leavenings (wild yeast) often require longer temper times than commercially leavened doughs. Five to seven hours would not be unusual.

Doughs with high hydration will generally temper faster than those with low hydration values because of the increased biochemical activity.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 12:00:48 AM »
I've been using the same recipe for 3 months now but have been getting mixed results so I'm trying to narrow down the different factors as to why sometimes I get a great crust and sometimes a mediocre one. 

The crust I use for 1 dough ball about 270 gm is ...
-110 gm water
-150-160gm flour
-1 T starter
-1/2 tsp salt
-1/2 tsp IDY

It's usually cold fermented for 1-3 days and then proofed on the counter at a room temp of about 72 deg for about 3-4 hours depending on when dinner is.  I was just curious as to if that is too long but I don't think it is being that the dough doesn't degas at this time interval.  From your post, it sounds like it could even go another couple of hours if need be.

I suspect that my varying results has been due to underkneading. 
I recently tried a different approach to autolysing while still using the same recipe that I have been using and the results so far are dramatically different.

Instead of adding only 75% of the flour for the autolyse (per JV) I added all of the flour and autolyse for 30m.  At first the dough was hard to mix and felt shaggy.  After 30m, it was soft and sticky.  Kneading it to the proper consistency (satiny finish), took about 1/2 the time that it normally does.   This was due to the better gluten development from the autolyse.  The difference to autolysing with only 75% of the flour is that only about 75% of the flour get's autolysed.  The remain 20-25% added later doesn't benefit from the autolyse.

I was very impress with the difference in the feel of the dough.  I also let it sit at room temp for about 2 hours prior to cold fermenting.  After 2 days of cold fermenting, it has quite a different texture than I'm use to seeing.  The dough seem softer and more aerated at 60% hydration than my previous attempts at 70% hydration.  I suspect this is due partially to better gluten development and having let it set at room temp prior to cold fermentation.    I can't wait to bake it tomorrow night, hoping it will mean a better end product.  Pictures to come...
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 12:09:16 AM by Tranman »

scott123

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 12:28:14 PM »
Tranman, cold fermentation develops a considerable amount of gluten, so it's very difficult to underknead a cold fermented dough.

You seem very earnest in your quest and I don't want to dampen your excitement, but I think, in your effort to improve your crust, you're going in a few too many directions and potentially overcomplicating things.

Although I'm a fan of punch downs and stretch and folds, I think they're a bit experimental for NY style pizza, and if you don't understand them well, they can be especially counterproductive.  Gluten can only expand so far and then it will break.  If you're working with an extensible flour, you get a little more leeway in how much you can work your dough, but you still want to be careful. Cold dough is especially fragile/prone to tearing. Also, if you work dough too close to forming the skin, it can make it hard to form and give you a tough crust.

I'm also a big fan of high hydration, but 68%+ is pretty advanced pizzamaking. Doughs that are that slack can be very difficult to work with.

I also think that although starter could make for superior crusts/breads, again, I think it's something you want to get into once you master the basics.

I'm not saying don't go above 68%, don't do punch downs and don't use starter ever, I'm just recommending to avoid these more advanced practices for the moment and stick to the basics for NY style pizza making.

Speaking of sticking to the basics, long cold ferments are usually not something your local pizzeria might do, but those are very much proven to enhance crusts, and, as long as you keep your kneading in check and don't go too crazy with your yeast, 3 day cold ferments are an easy way to bring more flavor to your crust.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 11:10:22 PM »
Scott, good advice.  Just wish I had heard it 3 months ago before I started.  I just found this forum last week so I've been experimenting for the last 3 months.  I started out with JV's recipe and that's all I've stuck with to keep things constant.  It calls for starter so I made my starter and continued on.  Tweaking things here and there to try and improve the crust.  There's just so many factors that go into making a great pie that sometimes I do make several adjustments at once.  Not having others advice to rely on (until now) I basically had to figure out a lot of stuff.  I chose to forgo making microadjustments, otherwise I'd be eating pizza almost every night!  :-X

At any rate, here's tonight's pie.  Tell me what you think.    This is of course JV's recipe.  Difference is, is that 100% of the flour was added to the water, starter, and ADY to autolyse for 20m.  Salt was added and then kneaded for 8mins.  Dough was fermented at room temp for 2 hours, folded several times, then cold fermented for 3 days. Tempered to room temperature and baked at 650 for 6 min on my Primo grill. 
  I did note that the window paning was the best I have gotten.  Again the difference was autolysing with all of the flour instead of 75%.  Took longer than expected to bake b/c I was afraid it would burn and kept lifting the lid to check on it.
  Bottom was very soft and foldable but the crust was very crispy and crunchy.  Crust was also light.  I normally don't eat a ton of my pizzas but I ate about 3/4 of this pie.  It was a 15" pie.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 11:17:41 PM by Tranman »

scott123

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2010, 12:37:44 AM »
Hmmmm... this really gets into personal preference, but, for me, it looks like it could be a bit overfermented, but... that's still pretty impressive for 3 months of experimentation. The 6 minute baking time is a worthy feat.

I'm still a pretty firm believer in starting simple, but, hey, if you can recreate that every time (and build on it a little each time), then if it isn't broke don't fix it!


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 01:21:42 AM »
By overfermented, are you referring to the numerous big bubbles in the first pic?  If so, I believe those are created by my folding technique.  If I don't fold, then 3 days of cold fermentation usually doesn't create that  many big bubbles, just a few maybe.
  I had also stretch this one out too thin being so impress with it's window paning.  It barely fit on my peel and didn't come off cleanly thus the odd shape.  I usually like about an inch border of peel to allow me to shake the pie off.

scott123

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 02:58:48 AM »
Tranman, if you look at the crust, you'll see big, well browned bubbles, but, between the bubbles there's small patches of what appears to be relatively white deflated dough.  This type of degassing is usually a result of dough that's been fermented for a long time. Some of the gluten in the dough is maintaining it's strength to form the bubbles, but quite a lot of it is succumbing to the adverse effects of prolonged fermentation and losing structural integrity.

On the plus side, crusts like this are extremely digestible.  With dough fermented this long, I can usually double my intake with no adverse effects. It's also extremely tender.

On the minus side, imo, the crust loses a bit of it's inherent breadiness.  You also run the risk of generating fermentation byproducts, that, although flavorful, are usually not the flavor you're looking for.  Imo, crust should taste like wheat, not beer (or, if certain byproducts get out of hand, worse).

Don't get me wrong, I would definitely devour a pie- I mean, slice or two if given the chance, but if you're looking for something a bit more bready, more classically NY, I would back off of the yeast a bit.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 03:02:51 AM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 09:26:11 AM »
Scott, thank you for the feedback and advice.  I'm amazed that you can tell I was a bit heavy handed with the yeast by looking at the picture and knowing the length of cold fermentation.   I'm just in the process of cutting back the yeast as I'm looking at more recipes from this site.
  Thats one of the few changes I made (on my own) to JVs recipe thinking that more yeast will yield bigger bubbles.  I think I added a bit more than 1/2 tsp for this pie, plus there's also a heaping tablespoon of starter (20gm) as well.  That maybe ok for baking a same day dough but I'll cut back to 1/8 to 1/4 tsp per pie for cold ferments.
  My pies in the past have come out much breadier than this, so I have been shooting for a crumb like this. I thought my mistake was in underkneading but now it may be a yeast issue.  So I guess a good balance for me is to try for something inbetween. A little more bready than this but not too bready.
    Thanks again for your help.

Offline scott r

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 10:22:51 AM »
It is strange, and counter intuitive, but you are right.   More yeast does not mean more bubbles.   I have gone as low as .025 percent commercial yeast and still had HUGE voids.   


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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2010, 11:27:32 AM »
Tran,

scott r is right. You can't look at yeast quantity in the abstract. I was recently looking at a bunch of old pizza dough recipes that I had set aside some years ago as I was learning how to improve my pizzas. They just about all called for using one or two packets of yeast. I think those recipes conditioned us into thinking that we needed a lot of yeast to make a good pizza. Yeast is a factor that should be looked at in relation to the type of fermentation that is to be used, that is, room temperature fermentation or cold fermentation, and its duration. Yeast fermentation is more important than yeast quantity, but there should be enough yeast to sustain good fermentation, otherwise you can end up with a finished crust that is on the unpleasant sour side and with a dense crumb and sub-par oven spring. Also, as between underfermentation and too much fermentation--and I think that scott r may agree with this--I would rather deal with a dough with too much fermentation. Learning when to pull the trigger and use the dough is the challenge.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2010, 12:53:51 PM »
You guys are on the money here.  It makes common sense that if yeast gives rise to dough, then more yeast gives more rise.  In the very technical sense of the process, this may be true BUT once we are dealing with (over)coldfermenting, (over)proofing, we are dealing with the different variables that affect the activity of the yeast. 

One thing I noted was that after I had the pie in the oven for 1min, I open the lid to snap a picture and have a look.  My initially impression was that there was HUGE spring to the crust (no deflated spots).  But at this point the crust was still soft and had solidified yet.  I think opening the lid at this point was a detriment to the crust.

By opening the lid prematurely, I let out heat and moisture thus possibly leading to the deflation of the crust.  Had I not open the lid until past the 3min mark, I may not have had a deflated crust.

Is it possible that deflation was due to prematurely opening the oven lid?  Would you guys say that 1/2 tsp of ADY and 1 T of starter IS too much yeast for a 300gm NY style dough ball with a 3 day cold ferment?

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2010, 02:13:48 PM »
Tran,

Knowing that you have been using Jeff V's dough formulation, I looked at Jeff's formulation for a roughly 300-gram dough ball at http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm. Then, using information given in Ed Wood's book Classic Sourdoughs, specifically, in the Appendix at page 200, I estimated that one tablespoon of a poolish-type natural starter weighs 15.95 grams. That would represent 5.32% of the total dough ball weight. Doing some more math manipulations with Jeff's numbers for the roughly 300-gram dough ball, and using the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html, I came up with the following:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (67.0401%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (3.4096%):
IDY (0.28413%):
Total (170.73383%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Morton's Kosher Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Total:

175.71 g  |  6.2 oz | 0.39 lbs
117.8 g  |  4.16 oz | 0.26 lbs
5.99 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
7.97 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs
7.97 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs
15.95 g | 0.56 oz | 0.04 lbs

 
167.74 g | 5.92 oz | 0.37 lbs
109.82 g | 3.87 oz | 0.24 lbs
5.99 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
15.95 g | 0.56 oz | 0.04 lbs
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs  | TF = N/A
Note: Preferment = 5.32% of total dough weight and its percentage of water is 50%

The numbers are a bit different than Jeff's in a few respects, mainly because I am using the conversion data built into the preferment dough calculating tool, but I believe my numbers are reasonably correct based on my assumptions. Also, I assumed the salt is Morton's Kosher salt. And I used a bit more preferment than Jeff (15.95 grams vs. 15 grams).

Now, if I alter the above dough formulation to use 1/2 teaspoon of ADY (your usage) instead of the IDY used by Jeff, then the adjusted dough formulation profile looks like this:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (67.0401%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (3.4096%):
ADY (1.09%):
Total (171.5397%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Morton's Kosher Salt:
ADY:
Preferment:
Total:

174.89 g  |  6.17 oz | 0.39 lbs
117.24 g  |  4.14 oz | 0.26 lbs
5.96 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.24 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
1.91 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
7.97 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs
7.97 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs
15.95 g | 0.56 oz | 0.04 lbs

 
166.91 g | 5.89 oz | 0.37 lbs
109.27 g | 3.85 oz | 0.24 lbs
5.96 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.24 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
1.91 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
15.95 g | 0.56 oz | 0.04 lbs
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs  | TF = N/A

As you will note from the above, the ADY represents 1.09% of the total formula flour. If my calculations are correct, that is far too much yeast for a 300-gram dough ball that is to be cold fermented for three days. Moreover, the 15.59 grams of preferment will have its added leavening effects. But, perhaps more importantly, the ADY will be in a biochemical race and battle with the preferment for nutrients and the like and, in such an event, the ADY will win the battle and quite likely swamp out most of the effects of the preferment, including the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavors. My recollection is that Jeff used a small amount of IDY to give the finished dough a bit more "poof". There is nothing wrong with using both commercial yeast and a natural starter. It is a "hybrid" "belt-and-suspenders" method recognized in the bread art but the commercial yeast should be used in very small amounts, as I noted in my review of Professor Calvel's book The Taste of Bread at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg66414/topicseen.html#msg66414.

Please let me know if I misunderstood or misstated anything.

Peter






Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2010, 03:51:42 PM »
Peter you have not misunderstood.   Jeffs recipe calls for 1/8 tsp of IDY per 312? Gm dough ball I believe. In my early experiments I mistakenly believed that more yeast would yield bigger bubbles so I upped the yeast to 1/2 tsp. I just stuck with that amount since then but my next batch I'll definitely come down on the yeast especially since I'm using starter as well.  I'll use 1/8 tsp, less, or none at all to see the difference. 
  I know now that IDY/ADY isn't even neccessary when doing a 3-5 day cold ferment, especially if I let the dough ferment for 2 hours before going in the fridge.

Peter do you think that opening the lid to my oven early cause the deflation or do you think it's a yeast issue? Or both?

Your expertise is muchly appreciated.

 
 

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2010, 05:16:16 PM »
Peter do you think that opening the lid to my oven early cause the deflation or do you think it's a yeast issue? Or both?

Tran,

It sounds like some kind of rapid thermodynamic event. If the dough was long in the tooth and gassy and with a fragile gluten structure, possibly opening the oven door allowed a rapid exchange of warm oven air with cooler room temperature air such that the dough deflated before it could set. If you had waited a few minutes more, I suspect that the dough would have pretty much completely set. Under ordinary circumstances, the starches start to gelatinize at 140 degrees F and continues until they completely set at around 185 degrees F. Gluten goes through similar transformations.

Peter

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2010, 09:57:06 PM »
I mentioned in an earlier post that another member had allowed his dough to temper for nine hours. As noted in Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg17143/topicseen.html#msg17143, the member, Les, had previously used 6 hours, 7 hours, 8 hours and 9 hours, and was going for 10 hours. The dough recipe that gave rise to this series of experiments is given in Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg17070.html#msg17070. I cite the recipe to put everything, including the amount of yeast and dough preparation techniques (including using crushed ice), into context.

Peter

Offline simpleman

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2010, 10:00:02 PM »
Tran,

Nice looking pie. I think if pftaylor saw the pic of your opened dough he'd exclaim "...the bubbles man!"

This thread hits home with me as I too am currently using Jeff's recipe/methodology.  Your theory about the 75% vs 100% percentage of flour in the initial autolyse is very interesting.  Jeff never mentions the rationale behind just using 75% of the flour up front.  I've always followed this particular bit of advice he gives without question.  Perhaps someone can shed some light on the logic behind this.

It's also interesting that the Glossary definition of 'Autolyse' here on the website states:

...during which flour and especially the protein in the flour fully absorb the water BEFORE the yeast and salt are added and fermentation activity begins.

In contrast, Jeff's recipe calls for adding ALL of the ingredients to the mixer at the start (water, salt, yeast, IDY, 75% of the flour).  I wonder what effect, if any, adding the yeast and salt after the initial autolyse would have on the final dough. 

On another note... I'm curious, which natural starter are you using? 

Michael

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2010, 10:32:04 PM »
It's also interesting that the Glossary definition of 'Autolyse' here on the website states:

...during which flour and especially the protein in the flour fully absorb the water BEFORE the yeast and salt are added and fermentation activity begins.

In contrast, Jeff's recipe calls for adding ALL of the ingredients to the mixer at the start (water, salt, yeast, IDY, 75% of the flour).  I wonder what effect, if any, adding the yeast and salt after the initial autolyse would have on the final dough. 

Michael,

Jeff does not use a classic autolyse as developed by Professor Raymond Calvel, although Jeff uses multiple rest periods totaling at least 35-40 minutes. During those rest periods, the dough undergoes hydration but it also starts to ferment. There is nothing wrong with that. It just isn't an autolyse. For one of the best discussions in my opinion on the subject of autolyse and the effects of including ingredients like yeast and salt in the dough during autolyse, see Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22856.html#msg22856. You can also read what Professor Calvel says about autolyse in his book The Taste of Bread, at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8564.msg74602/topicseen.html#msg74602. You will note from the Calvel quote in Reply 5 that autolysis is especially valuable when using natural leavening. That is consistent with my own experience, as I have noted many times before on the forum, even before I bought the Calvel book and his quote confirmed my experience.

Since we are starting to wander from the original topic, or unless Jeff's dough tempering is to be discussed, feel free to start a new thread if you want to pursue this line of discussion further, or post in an existing thread on this subject.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How long is too long to proof dough?
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2010, 01:02:56 AM »
Peter, that was a good read on Les' Sweet Pizza.  I may be wrong but I believe he is able to achieve that light airy crust base on 2 things.  His folding technique prior to the 48 cold ferment, and the long temper period of 9 hours. 
  I have also found that folding the dough prior to the cold ferment and even during will trap and give larger air bubbles in the end product.   I have also folded the dough 1/3 way through the proofing stage as well.  I suspect when you fold doesn't really matter, but that the more you fold the more air you trap.   
  Now I know that if I cut back on my IDY/ADY, proofing for upto 10 hours at room temps (70s) shouldn't be a problem.  Thank you for the links.

 
Simpleman (Micheal) thank you for the compliment.  As with most of my pies they are all really experimental.  Definitely not my best pie, as I have made better, but I did learn a lot from this one. 

First, the starter I'm using is one I made from instructions off the net.  It was made over 6 days with just flour, water, and a bit of lemon juice.  It's about 3 months old now, so I guess I'll use it forever.  I would really love to get my hands on a Patsy starter and compare the 2 by baking 2 pies side by side.  Anyone want to share their Patsy's starter?

   After reading several post on no knead crusts and no knead breads and learning that gluten still develops very well without the magic of kneading with a mixer, it really motivated me to try the technique out.  As a matter of fact, I'm getting ready to bake my first no knead french bread and hoping to glean some new ideas and concepts from it. 
  Reading about no kneading techniques and autolysing, I decided to do the test.  I'm not sure if I forgot to mention, but not only did I add all of the flour at the beginning, I ALSO omitted the salt until after the the 20m autolyse.   Im sure Peter can explain better than I can (or has already) why the salt works against autolysing.   Salt attracts water and doesn't allow the flour to absorb it as well. 
  The difference I found (and it's a big difference) in autolysing with all of the flour up front is that during the autolyse, gluten is developing (as Jeff has also suggested) throughout ALL of the flour and not just 75% of it.  Sure gluten will continue to develop while kneading and adding the other 25% of the flour in, but it will develop better (if not more) if all is added upfront.  So much so that kneading time is reduced about 40% when kneading by hand. 
  I was so astounded by the difference as I have hand kneaded the same dough using Jeff's recipe and techniques and using the same kneading pattern over the last 3 months.   I also noticed a huge difference in the crumb structure with the better gluten development as well. 
  I have tons of pictures from my old bakes but they are on a different computer and have not been converted otherwise I'd post up some more pictures for review showing the difference in crumb structure.  I am now storing pics on my laptop and converting them just for this site.  I hope to have more up soon.
  
And BTW, the many big airbubbles, I am currently attributing to my folding technique done several times throughout the process.  I'll have to make a pie without folding to see if it produces as much airbubbles.

Anyways, you should definitely give the "all flour upfront autolysing" a try and see if it makes any noticeable difference for you.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 01:17:31 AM by Tranman »