Author Topic: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration  (Read 10098 times)

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Offline elsegundo

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Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« on: March 11, 2010, 11:46:05 PM »
It has taken me quite a while to discover the real ingredients in the famous dough.  Lots of people have guessed but here they are:

wheat flour
partially hydrogenated soybean/ cottonseed oil (Crisco)
sugar
salt
yeast ADY

less than 2% ammonium sulfate, calcium sulfate, dextrose, soybean oil
water hydration is approximately 40%.

There is no whey and no nonfat dry milk. There is no baking powder.
I'm a little sad to finally know. The quest is over. On the other hand it is still the greatest pizza on earth.
More info later.





Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 05:31:28 PM »
Elsegundo:

Bless you!!  ;D ;D ;D

I had my first Shakey's pizza in 30 years this past Sunday and I have begun a quest on the forum and other places to find whatever I could about the crust and sauce.  The thing that really got me was the sauce (I ate at the one in Oroville, CA).  It was very good, right from the toppings to the final thin layer of crust.

Okay, here we go. Time to start making some Shakey's clones ...  :chef:

-ME
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2010, 08:29:15 PM »
Bill,

Thanks for posting the Shakey's information. I look forward to the additional information to come. However, I would like to mention that Crisco shortening does not satisfy the "partially hydrogenated soybean/ cottonseed oil" element of the ingredients list you provided. It might have at some time in the past, but several years ago Crisco reformulated the shortening sold under the Crisco name. Today, the ingredients that go into Crisco shortening are as follows;

SOYBEAN OIL, FULLY HYDROGENATED PALM OIL, PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED PALM AND SOYBEAN OILS, MONO AND DIGLYCERIDES, TBHQ AND CITRIC ACID (ANTIOXIDANTS). Source: http://www.crisco.com/Products/Details.aspx?groupID=17&prodID=315.

The above list reflects one of the major changes to vegetable shortenings on the market today, and that is the use of palm oils to get around some of the hydrogenation issues even if it means increasing sat fat levels. According to an article I read recently, palm oil "is one of the few vegetable oils with significant plasticity at room temperature. It carries 52% saturated fats but can be blended with other liquid oils, thus cutting overall “sat” levels while vastly improving functionality. (The other vegetable oils high in saturates are palm kernel oil at 81% and coconut oil at 91%.)"  Even margarines have started to use palm oil, as is also the case with some of the "healthy" spreads that are non-hdrogenated and low in trans fats and saturated fats but with fatty acids that are deemed to be good for you. The products that are most likely to include "partially hydrogenated soybean/cottonseed oil" are low-end margarine products. I was in two supermarkets today, one a high end store and the other a low end store, where I looked at just about every brand of margarine, from cheap to expensive, and I was not able to find a pure "partially hydrogenated soybean/ cottonseed oil" product. Many of the margarine products included the partially-hydrogenated oils, but they also included a fairly wide range of other ingredients, such as liquid oils, whey, water, salt, mono- and diglycerides, preservatives and flavor and color additives.

I also wonder whether Shakey's is using frozen dough. Ammonium sulfate and calcium sulfate apparently function as food for yeast and no doubt have other functions. However, where I have seen those ingredients listed most is in frozen doughs, both for bread doughs and, on occasion, pizza doughs. A good example of the latter is the frozen doughs that Pizza Hut now uses in most of its stores in the U.S. See, for example, the ingredients lists for the PH hand-tossed/stuffed and Mia doughs at http://www.pizzahut.com/Files/PDF/PIZZA%20HUT%20INGREDIENT%20STATEMENTS%202008.pdf. Note, also, the use in several of the PH doughs of partially-hydrogenated vegetable/soy/cottonseed oils.

Peter

EDIT (4/20/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the above Pizza Hut pdf document, see http://web.archive.org/web/20100602083641/http://www.pizzahut.com/Files/PDF/PIZZA%20HUT%20INGREDIENT%20STATEMENTS%20September%202008.pdf
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 06:53:08 AM by Pete-zza »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2010, 09:08:28 PM »
I see that Shakey's now provides nutrition data for their pizzas and other foods, at http://www.shakeys.com/MENU/NutritionalInfo/tabid/164/Default.aspx.

Peter

Offline elsegundo

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 11:35:09 PM »
Thanks for your reply Pete.

Partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil is the official labeling. I would call it Crisco but I'll defer to your wisdom on this.

I have more to post, but no they do not use frozen dough. They take the ingredients from the 25 pounds premix and mix with 9 pounds of water at 95 degrees, let rise until doubled and then put in the refrigerator until the next day.

Then, there is a technique to sheet the dough.

I will post more extensive information during the week, but I have seen behind the curtain on the pizza brick road.
I have the road map similar to the Round Table Pizza posting I did quite a while back.



Bill

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2010, 10:06:01 PM »
Bill,

I wondered whether there are any retail sources of pure partially-hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oils. After doing a Google search, I found the big guys, like Cargill and ADM, and a small company in N.J. (Welch, Holme & Clark Co., Inc.) that sells partially-hydrogenated soybean oil in a minimum 5-gallon quantity, but no sources at the retail level that sell to ordinary consumers in user friendly quantities. Absent such "pure" partially-hydrogenated oils, I would tend to go with either the reformulated Crisco or margarine with an adjustment to the formula hydration to compensate for the water that is contained in margarine (about 17-25% depending on the type and brand and the form--stick or tub). I would perhaps look for a form that contains both liquid soybean oil (one of the ingredients you listed) and one of the partially-hydrogenated oils. There might also be an adjustment for salt that is contained in just about all margarine products I have seen.

Dextrose is sold by many places, in small quantities, and at a reasonable price. A typical source is Barry Farm, at http://www.barryfarm.com/sugars.htm. Since sugar (sucrose) is already listed as a sweetener, I believe the dextrose, which is a simple sugar, is used because it is rapidly fermented and should accelerate the rising process. By contrast, sucrose can take many hours to be converted to simple sugars. The dextrose should also help with crust coloration.

Peter

Offline dms

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2010, 11:27:07 PM »
Bill,

I wondered whether there are any retail sources of pure partially-hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oils. After doing a Google search, I found the big guys, like Cargill and ADM, and a small company in N.J. (Welch, Holme & Clark Co., Inc.) that sells partially-hydrogenated soybean oil in a minimum 5-gallon quantity, but no sources at the retail level that sell to ordinary consumers in user friendly quantities. Absent such "pure" partially-hydrogenated oils, I would tend to go with either the reformulated Crisco or margarine with an adjustment to the formula hydration to compensate for the water that is contained in margarine (about 17-25% depending on the type and brand and the form--stick or tub). I would perhaps look for a form that contains both liquid soybean oil (one of the ingredients you listed) and one of the partially-hydrogenated oils. There might also be an adjustment for salt that is contained in just about all margarine products I have seen.


They're using partially hydrogenated oils for two reasons: cost, and cost.  Cost of the fat: hydrogenated oils are cheap, and cost of storage: partially hydrogenated cottonseed oil has a very long shelf life.  They're certainly not using them for flavor.  Were I inclined to build a dough formula using a solid fat, which I'm not really, I'd use lard.  (It's quite possible that Shakey's started out using lard, or a lard/beef tallow mixture, which were very common in US food service until the 70s.  (McDonald's fried their fries in tallow until the late 80s or early 90s.)  They were cheaper than crisco.)  Lard has the advantage of having the amount of plasticity that you want from solid shortening, and has a melting point below body temperature, so it doesn't have a horribly greasy mouth feel (Crisco, in its traditional formula, had a melting point of about 130f.  dunno what the current product has).  It's not popular with vegetarians nor certain religions, but what can you do?   

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2010, 10:46:40 AM »
dms,

I was thinking about the exact same thing about using lard. In fact, when I checked out the margarine and shortening products at the two supermarkets recently, as mentioned earlier, I also looked for lard products. One store, which caters to a high end income demographic, had no lard products at all, only Crisco products. The other store, which caters to a low income demographic, had both lard and beef tallow-based shortenings (and Crisco shortening as well).

The article I quoted from relative to the new shortening formulations also pointed out that the traditional hydrogenated fats had considerable tolerance in storage and handling conditions, and that with zero-trans, non-hydro products, the temperature range narrows considerably.

Peter


Offline dms

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2010, 12:45:44 PM »
dms,

I was thinking about the exact same thing about using lard. In fact, when I checked out the margarine and shortening products at the two supermarkets recently, as mentioned earlier, I also looked for lard products. One store, which caters to a high end income demographic, had no lard products at all, only Crisco products. The other store, which caters to a low income demographic, had both lard and beef tallow-based shortenings (and Crisco shortening as well).

My local supermarket has (at least) three  different lards.  one is kept in a refrigerated case, and is an industrially produced (contains hydrogenated lard) by Hormel (I think; several of the big packers produce the stuff.).  Second is with the mexican foods, and is also a hydrogenated lard (I forget the brand, but they sell it in multiple sizes).  Third is freshly rendered lard kept hidden in butcher's section (not even in the case, but totally out of sight.) which you have to ask for.  You're in texas, as I recall, so I'd bet you can get freshly rendered lard (manteca) from a mexican butcher. 

The amount of lard I use is pretty small, so I mostly use what I recover from bacon.  I only buy lard when I'm going to fry with it. 

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2010, 01:17:51 PM »
dms,

The two brands of lard products that I saw in the second supermarket, which caters to many ethnic groups (but mainly Hispanic), are Armour (sometimes with bi-lingual labels, English and Spanish), such as shown at http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/05/01/00/51/0005010051725_215X215.jpg and at http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NmNswaDML._SL500_SS90_.jpg, and Mrs. Tucker's shortening, such as shown at http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mrs-Tucker-s-Shortening-42-oz/10451673.

Whether one elects to use Crisco, margarine or lard or similar shortening in practicing the dough recipe that elsegundo (Bill) posted is a matter of personal choice and how closely ones wants to try to simulate the current Shakey's dough formulation. However, I think that using lard is more likely to produce a more flavorful crust, quite possibly closer to the earlier iterations of the Shakey's pizza dough for their cracker-style pizza. Although I didn't mention it earlier, I suspect that ordinary butter can also be used.

Peter


Offline elsegundo

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2010, 01:22:13 PM »
When Shakey's began, he was looking for a pizza that could be eaten in a pub. Not a heavy Italian syle with olive oil. Not an oil which would go rancid in the Sacramento heat or the heat of a pizza kitchen. (The original building is about the size of an old family grocery store.) When Shakey began, he stole the chef from another Sacramento pizza joint, attached to a bar.

If you think about pie, it is usually made with shortening. If you think about saltines, they were made with partially hydrogenated oils. Also Procter and Gamble has a plant in Sacramento.

Round Table Pizza from California also uses partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil per their premix bag which I posted earlier.

If you are making a pizza with low hydration you probably need some form of oil to avoid cardboard texture. But just enough.

A few of my thoughts.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2010, 03:49:58 PM »
I started out my career with a pizza franchise descended directly from Shakeys...(Abby's Pizza).  And I can tell you that way back then their crust didn't have a drop of oil in it.  Although there procedures were a little different than Shakeys, they were still after that tender cracker crust.  I don't think the oil is a major factor in the texture of the crust.

John

Offline GotRocks

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2010, 11:53:01 PM »
I have always loved Shakeys Pizza, I often wondered if there was beer in the dough because I think it has a great malty taste to it.
I only know of 2 remaining locations of Shakeys Pizza in Wisconsin (My Home) and they are both in excess of a 3-hour drive. 20-30 years ago, you found them everywhere. Even one less than 1 hour away from me. I do not now what killed them all off.

As a kid, I had my face pressed against the glass watching the cooks build pies and everything else that had. and I plan to have windows into our kitchen for the same reason.
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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2010, 09:19:18 AM »
I only know of 2 remaining locations of Shakeys Pizza in Wisconsin (My Home) and they are both in excess of a 3-hour drive.

Unfortunately, both the West Allis and Janesville locations are gone.  The only Shakey's east of the Mississippi now are in Georgia and Alabama.  The one in West Allis is the one I remember the most from my childhood and it was probably the next-to-last Shakey's I ate at up until a couple weeks ago.
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 09:31:54 AM »
I started out my career with a pizza franchise descended directly from Shakeys...(Abby's Pizza).  And I can tell you that way back then their crust didn't have a drop of oil in it.  Although there procedures were a little different than Shakeys, they were still after that tender cracker crust.  I don't think the oil is a major factor in the texture of the crust.

John

John:

How did you make your dough at Abby's?  Did it come in a bag and just add water?  Do you recall any additional ingredients to be added (yeast, etc.)?  It is possible to have fats within a premade flour and not have to add them prior to preparing the dough.  Tortilla flour is one example, such as Harina Preparada from Quaker Oats, Wal-Mart's Great Value brand, and other sources. 
http://www.quakeroats.com/products/more-products-from-quaker/content/specialty-items/tortilla-mix/harina-preparada.aspx

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-Flour-Tortilla-Mix-320-oz/10316045


To me, there are 2 issues with regard to ingredients for a dough.  One is texture, but the other is flavor.
For instance, do the ingredients of less than 2% ammonium sulfate, calcium sulfate, dextrose, soybean oil add to the texture, flavor, or both in the final product?

Any memories you have on making the dough at Abby's might help.

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline GotRocks

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2010, 09:53:10 AM »
Unfortunately, both the West Allis and Janesville locations are gone.  The only Shakey's east of the Mississippi now are in Georgia and Alabama.  The one in West Allis is the one I remember the most from my childhood and it was probably the next-to-last Shakey's I ate at up until a couple weeks ago.

Please say it isn't so!!! I was just down that way a week or so ago for the restaurant Expo in MKE, we considered making a trip out that way, but the 5 hour drive back home with a gut full of Shakey's pizza and chicken is not a fun trip to try and stay awake for the drive.
I used to go to the West Allis location alot, and when they still had a location by Hwy 41/45 & Silver Spring Rd too back in the 1980's.
I kinda figured the janesville location was on the endangered species list during my last visit a few years back, it just had that feeling it was in trouble from the looks of the building and parking area.
The one in WI rapids and Wausau shut down many years ago, but they food quality at those locations was poor at best, (we have very little talented cooks up in the northern reaches of this state)

What do you think killed them? Because it sure was never a food quality issue in W-A, their pizza and chicken was absolutely great and well worth the drive to get. Once a month or so, a bunch of us would go for lunch there, and we would not want to work the rest of the day from being too full.
Maybe it was the turn towards healthier eating? Because Krispy Kreme donuts also failed in WI. That sucks!

I sure would like to have both their dough recipe, and their chicken recipe.

I just told the GF that shakey's was gone, she is bummed too, but then she said "Well, you got to take me to one of your childhood favorites before they closed, unlike the others we have tried to visit in the past"

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Offline dms

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2010, 10:26:43 AM »
What do you think killed them? Because it sure was never a food quality issue in W-A, their pizza and chicken was absolutely great and well worth the drive to get. Once a month or so, a bunch of us would go for lunch there, and we would not want to work the rest of the day from being too full.
Maybe it was the turn towards healthier eating? Because Krispy Kreme donuts also failed in WI. That sucks!


Shakey's was done in by idiot moron management in the franchising company.  They're a textbook case of what can go wrong with franchises, and how a bad franchiser can ruin successful franchisees. 

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2010, 01:52:30 PM »
Shakey's was done in by idiot moron management in the franchising company.  They're a textbook case of what can go wrong with franchises, and how a bad franchiser can ruin successful franchisees. 

I'd have to agree with you on that one as a whole.

As to why those two specific locations in Wisconsin closed, I can't truly say.  It's my understanding the Jacmar corporation is doing a much better job than the Hunts corporation did, but I have little to go on in that regard.  I never visited the Janesville location.  They closed around '06 or '07.  The one in West Allis closed around the summer of 2008.  You can go to Flickr.com and find photos of that location taken on the last day of business.  I had not been to that one since 1977, so I don't know what might have transpired over the years, other than competition, that would have put it out of business.  Clearly the Milwaukee area has some fine, old school pizzerias in the old neighborhoods that still seem to be doing okay, so who knows.  Lazy management can also play a big factor in these situations, be it at the local, regional, or national level.

-ME
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2010, 02:01:59 PM »
Abby's provided it's franchisees with a bag (which I believe consisted of yeast, salt, malt and bakers cheese).  This was added to white flour (Mondako at the time) and water.
John

Offline GotRocks

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Re: Shakey's thin crust dough ingredients declaration
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2010, 04:09:42 PM »
Clearly the Milwaukee area has some fine, old school pizzerias in the old neighborhoods that still seem to be doing okay, so who knows. 

Of all the cities I have ever visited, Milwaukee has got the best pizza I have ever tried, it doesn't seem to matter where you go in Milwaukee, you can walk in to any pizza place in the city and have a great pizza, Yes, there are a few outstanding places which are head and shoulders above the rest, but generally every independent shop just has a great pizza.
But when you compare shakey's against other Milwaukee pizza places, it was nothing really all that special. But it was still good, and I always found absolute consistency between the different locations, So I knew what I was going to get and there was no unpleasant surprises when the pie hit the table.
 I wonder if a posting on craigslist would bring up some old employees of Shakey's to spill the beans on the dough formulation and handling.

Florida by far generally has the worst pizza that I have ever had.
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