750-850F in home oven WITHOUT cutting lock

[Jackie Tran]

Yeah you heard it right.    Was able to achieve temps between 750-850 in the home oven without having to cut the lock or run it on the cleaning cycle. 

First off, I just moved into my new house and we have a Viking oven to play with.  The heating element is on top and I'm not sure if it heats from the bottom as well, but I'm thinking not.  Top oven temp setting is 500 and then followed by broil. 

When baking pizzas in the home oven in the past, I have always baked on one level below middle with the oven at 500F preheated for 30-45m.  I had no idea what the stone temp was.  Likely around 550, but don't know.   Well recently I just bought a thermogun from sears and now able to read surface temps with a click of a button.  Very cool. 

So I had an idea for a new setup (new for me anyhow) that I hadn't seen before.  Remember, I'm new here so there's only so much I have read. 

Anywho, the set up goes like this.   Set the stone about 3 inches from the broiler and heat up using a temp of 500F for 45mins, then broiler was turned on for 15m.   Stone temps were checked periodically to see how high I could get it.  I have no idea how hot the broiler gets but I know it's above 500.   Well after 30-45m preheat, I tested 3 different stones and got surface temps of 650, 750, and 850!  Likely due to the different properties of the stones. 

1st stones are actually D-plates (deflector plates) from my Primo ceramic outdoor oven.  It's the same material as the oven itself and I believe the material is kiln fired to around 2000 deg.  So no worry about cracking there.  There pizza stone is made from the same material but is glazed on one side.  I'm in the process of having the other side glazed as well, so I had to use the D-plates for this experiment.  It's possible that these would have gone higher into the 800's and that i was just too impatient.   When the temp seem to stay around 650, I cooked 1 pizza and then  added stone #2 on top of them for testing.

Stone #2 is a 16x16 natural slate Tile from Lowes for $4.  It is rather thin at less than 1/2" and dark in color.  Not a great choice b/c it ended up cracking along the middle but was able to achieve 750F.

Stone #3 is a 16x16 natural travertine tile from Lowes for $4.  This is the porous travertine.  DO NOT use the smooth travertine as the pores have been filled in by the manufacture with who knows what.  The one I used for the test is in it's natural state.  It's only been cut by the manufacturer.  This stone was tested after all the pizza's were already baked on stone #2.  I assumed that it wouldn't reach as high a temp b/c of the white color but I got a reading of 850F in the center of the stone right under the broiler.  As you move away from the center, temps started to drop to 750's.

So 1st pie was baked on stone #1 (D-plates).  I was concerned about burning so after the pie was loaded at 650F, temp was turned down to 350, then up to 400, and 450 after a few minutes since I realized it wasn't gonna burn.   So color of the pie is a bit light.

Here is the setup.  Oven is set to 500F for 30min, then broiler is run for 15min or until stone reaches desired temp.   Once pizza is loaded, oven temp is turned down to 475-500F.  Stone is about 3.5" from the burner/broiler and pie is about 2.5" from the broiler.   Pie is then baked for 5-6mins turning once or twice.  The back of the oven is hotter than the front.   When I turn the pizza with the aluminum peel I take a peek at the bottom to make sure it's spotting properly.  After 5 mins or so, I turn the broiler back on for 30 seconds or so. 
  You have to watch the pie very closely at this point or it will burn very quickly.  Broiling at the end chars the top crust and cheese.  Again baking times here are around 6 min at an initially stone temp of 750. 

Next time I will bake with stone #3 at a starting temp of 850.

Pic #1 is the slate stone(stone #2) ontop of the D-plates (stone #1).  I stacked these for the thermal mass.

Pic #2 is the travertine stone (stone #3) on top of the slate stone (stone #2).  High temp of 850F here!

[Jackie Tran]

Ok Pie #1 was baked on the D-plates with an initial stone temp of 650F, then after the pie was loaded, oven temp was turned down to 350 for a min, upto 400 for a min, then 450 to finish.  Baked for about 7 mins.

This was experimental pie #1, so I was concerned about burning.  But I quickly realized that temps of 450-475 was tolerable after loading the pizza onto the hot stone.

[Jackie Tran]

OK pie #2-#4 where baked on the slate stone with an initial temp of 750.  After the pies where loaded, temp was turned down to 450-475.  All pies were baked around 6min with 30 secs of broiling at the end to char the top crust and cheese. 

Reheating the stone between pies took about 5 mins to recharge to 750.   One trick here is that each subsequent dough ball was stretched and skinned sitting on the counter waiting for the stone temp to come back up.  This allows the skin to dry out a bit to form a crunchy crust after baking.  When the stone reached desired temp of 750, the skin was then inverted onto the floured peel.  So dry side down and soft side up.  The slightly dried bottom also helps tremendously with not sticking to the peel.

I made a total of 4 pies and was able to put out a pizza in 11 mins or so.  4-5mins for the stone to recharge and 6 mins to bake.

[scott123]

Nearlypolitan

I tried Toby's broiling technique for NY Style but positioned the shelf a little too far away (about 5"). It's good to know that 750-850 can be achieved with 3" positioning.

Other than soapstone, no natural stone can handle the thermal shock of pizza/bread baking.  This includes:

Slate
Travertine
Granite
Marble

You might get lucky and not have them crack, but, you also might get very unlucky and they might crack in such a violent manner that they lodge a shard into your crust and you don't notice it until it's too late.  All of these stones are harder than teeth.

Pizza stones, be they cordierite, fibrament or soapstone, are all insulators. Unless they're a thickness of 3/8" or less (useless, imo), they are going to take a considerable amount of time to warm up.  They're also going to take a considerable amount of time to change temperature- longer than 6 minutes.  The mean temperature of the stone (at some point, it will most likely reach an equilibrium  between the blazingly hot broiled surface and cooler bottom) after pre-heating is what you're baking the bottom of the pizza at.  In other words, if you've gone with an incorrect pre-heat, there's no temperature adjustments that can be done during the baking that will correct it.  You can remove the pie from the stone (and put on a sheet or a screen), but you can't change the stone temp in those 6 minutes.  Not going to happen.

[Jackie Tran]

Scot I hear what you're saying about the tiles cracking. Both had cracked but not violently.  I realize it's only a matter of time tho.  If one of these tiles explodes violently, I won't be eating that pie.    I had to test them out and now I know.  I also won't have to test granite and  marble now that you've posted  the info.  These tiles were more experimental stones and temporary until I get those Primo d-plates glazed black.  They are thicker than the tiles but less than 1" each.  I'm thinking I will likely be able to achieve temps between 750-850 once they are glazed black.  Those Primo stones are made for high temps.   I also have a thin Pampered chef pizza stone that is maybe 1/3" thick.
  Ill repeat the test with those and post results later.
You make a good point about proper preheating.  I'll continue to preheat the oven at 500 for 45min and then turn the broiler on until the surface temps get high. 
  Even if only the surface temp is 850, I think it's just enough to quickly char the bottom crust. Since these are thin crust pizzas there's really not much to cook.  Once the pizza absorbs that high surface temp, the pie is probably cooking at a temp of 600.  It's well above 500 b/c the top burner doesn't kick in when I set the oven temp to 500. 
 This initial batch was loaded at a temp of 750.  850f surface temp was achieved after the pies where done. If
I load pies with a surface temp of 850, I may be able to bake a decent pie in 5min?? 
  Another thing I will try next time is to also run the convection fan. That may help Jack the temp up a bit.
  To tell the truth, my oven doesn't have a cleaning cycle otherwise I may consider hacking the lock.    And it's ok that these were 'nearlypolitan'.  My guests and I were very happy to be eating them. 

[Pete-zza]

Tran,

Your experiment reminded me of a similar one that pwaldman described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6585.msg56478.html#msg56478. I have been meaning to try out that method but haven't as yet gotten around to doing it.

From the second photo, it appears that your new oven is a gas oven. Is that correct? Also, once you turn the broiler on, will it stay on as long as you want? There are many ovens, including my electric oven, that cannot do that. At some point they kick off.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Tran,

Your experiment reminded me of a similar one that pwaldman described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6585.msg56478.html#msg56478. I have been meaning to try out that method but haven't as yet gotten around to doing it.

From the second photo, it appears that your new oven is a gas oven. Is that correct? Also, once you turn the broiler on, will it stay on as long as you want? There are many ovens, including my electric oven, that cannot do that. At some point they kick off.

Peter

Yes Peter, it's a gas oven.  Also I believe that it does continue to stay on but I will make sure and get back to you.  Last night during the final test with the travertine, I left the broiler running and went and play on the computer for a bit.  Checked back and surprise to see a stone temp of 850.

The thing to keep in mind here is that the closer you get to the broiler, the temp should increase dramatically.  If I further increase the height of the stone by 1", the temps should reach 850 or beyond faster.  Of course at some point the pizza will rise into the broiler and make a big giant mess so I dont' want to get it too close. 

After doing a little search reading the links posted by Scot and yourself, I basically repeated a technique that has been done before by Toby and Pwaldman.  The technique works well.

I can also do pizzas in my outdoor Primo ceramic oven at 750+ if I really load the fire box full and get the flames roaring but the home oven seems to get more consistent temps.  Pizzas cooked over coals also taste better to me, but is slightly more work and this is a nice alternative.   

[Jackie Tran]

UPDATE:  Further experimentation with disasterous outcome!

So I made 2 more pies tonight using this setup with a few changes.
First the pies :  modified GB recipe with AP flour, a bit of oil and my own SD starter added.  I scaled down the recipe to make 10" pies.  Possibly b/c of my cold autolyse period or reballing to close to baking time (3 hours out) the dough was not very distensible and hard to open.  So I purposely made them a bit thick to as to not tear the dough.

The oven setup:  Same as above, but I moved the rack and stone one level up closer to the burner.  If you look at the 1st picture in the first post, you'll notice that there is one more level for the rack to sit on above that setup.  That's where I move it too.  I stacked all the other stones I had in the oven for thermal mass so that not all the heat would be lost when the door was oven to load the pie.

First pie I loaded, I had the travertine on top of a very think pampered chef stone (seen below).  As I recalled the travertine got the hottest during the first test, I wanted it on top.  Oven was preheated at 500 for 45 min then broiled turned on for 5 min. 

Temp of stone prior to loading the pizza was a blistering 924F and oven temp turned down to 300 b/c I could hear the burner going.  Once I heard the burner cut out (3 seconds later?) I turned the oven back to 500F.  I set the timer to 5min.  Checked the pie at 2 min and it was burning with the heating element running.  Apparently opening the door let enough heat out to drop the oven temp below 500, so when I turned it back on to 500, the burner came back on.  When checking at 2 min, I notice the top crust was on FIRE so I quickly pulled it out and this is what I got.  So again, this pie was loaded with an initial temp of 924F and cooked in under 2 minutes!  Bottom was 70% toast!  I barely got 1.5 slices out of this pie. 

[Jackie Tran]

OK now for pie 2.  I removed the travertine and left just the thin round pampered chef stone that was under it and had the oven door open for a min to cool things down.  I figured I would take the stone temp down to mid 800's and try there.

2nd pie was loaded at a stone temp of 840F.  Rack is still at the same first level.  We are about 2.5" from the burner.  If the pie is to rise less than 1", it would be less than 1.5" from the burner.   This time pie was checked again at a little after 2 minutes and the bottem was just about toast.

Quickly pulled it out.   2nd pie was loaded at 840F and cooked just a little over 2 mins.  At least I got a few more slices out of this pie.

[Jackie Tran]

Since I didn't get to eat very much pizza tonight, I'm making an emergency dough for tomorrow night.  Will attempt again at a lower temp or a lower rack.  At the moment, I'm heating up different stones and retesting the surface temps to see if I can avoid burning tomorrow's pie. 

If you look at the pies, they are burned 3/4 of the way on top but 1/4 not burned.  I assume that the area that is not burned is closest to the oven door so when I open the door the heat there is lost. 

Tomorrow night, I'll have to remember to turn after one min to see if I can get an even cook.

[Jackie Tran]

Emergency dough prefermented for 24 hours.  Baked with the same preheat and setup and a stone surface temp of 800F.  Pie was loaded and oven temp dial turned down to 400 to ensure top burner not running.  After 2 mins, pie was turned and broiler ran for 40 seconds, with pie turned after 20 seconds of broiler being on.

Slightly more charred than I wanted but pie cooked in under 3 min.  Not bad for an unmodified home oven.

[scott123]

Tranman, it looks like, even with rotating the pizza during baking, your stone temp is all over the map.  With a stone that has sufficient conductivity, you should be able to preheat it to 850ish, then turn the heat off for a few minutes, and the temperature of the stone should reach an equilibrium.  I don't know the conductivity for travertine, and, like I said before, I really don't think it's suitable for baking, but your pampered chef stone might be able to work in this manner.  Is the pampered chef stone a speckled yellowish tan stone or is it gray like concrete?  If it's yellowish, then it should be cordierite.  Cordierite is a pretty good conductor.  I would think if you took it to 850, turned off the heat and kept the door closed for about 15 minutes, the heat in the stone would be a lot more even when you baked on it. It would also end up closer to the 750 realm.  In theory, you might be able do an initial broil of 15, then a rest of 15, bake a pie, and then broil the stone again, but for a shorter time- maybe 8 minutes broil, 8 minutes rest.

Are you striving for a Neapolitan or a NY pie?  If it's Neapolitan, I think you might need to look at the type of flour you're using and the fermentation process. If it's NY, 800 is overkill, imo.  I do a 3 minute NY pizza at 650 (with a very thick conductive stone), that rides the line between having the most char possible and being burnt. If you've got a thin stone, then maybe 700 might be a better bet, but 800+ is just a recipe for a burnt pie.

Even if you're going for a Neapolitan, a rest might help- maybe taking the stone to 924 and letting it cool to 850- with the door closed, of course.

[Jackie Tran]

Scott thank you for the advice. You are absolutely right on several fronts.  Stone temps are all over the place. I was getting 3/4 of a burnt pie and was thinking I needed to just turn the pie sooner to even the baking.  I just realized the problem I'm having is that the broiler is a squared shape measuring 8x10?  It doesn't expose the entired stone to the superheat. In other words it heats up the stone but superheats only a portion of the stone. So letting the stone rest for a few mins to redistribute the heat is a great idea!  Either that or just turn my pies after the first min of baking.  I was turning in the top picks but I was turning the entire stone (rotating it by hand) not realizing that the stone is unevenly heated. Thank you for the suggestion of allowing the stone to rest.
  Im shooting for something b/t NY and neopolitan. Both have characterisitcs that I like. I want something wih a bit more chew than a neopolitan but I want to be able to make it using a mix of AP and BF instead of using 00.  I like the smaller pie size of a neopolitan, and less cheese than a NY slice, but just not as moist of a crust.  Sorry for the noob question, but is the difference b/t a NY and Neopolitan really just the protein content of the flour?  I realize they are different animals but it seems they are closely related. More alike than different.   
  I'm pretty sure I can do a proper bake now at around 2min.  I just need to adjust a few things. I really didn't appreciate how hot 800-900 can be. I need to turn the pies sooner and start broiling the top sooner for a shorter overall bake time.
  The pampered chef stone is a brown tan color. It's rather thin (about 1/3") and only 12" in diameter so I'm limited to 10" pies.  I absolutely agree about the travertine not being suitable. I found a place for it in the trash as soon as it cooled after the burnt pie.
  Ill do a couple of test pies midweek or this coming weekend and update the thread. The newly incorporated stone rest period should really make a difference.

[Jackie Tran]

So tonight was the 3rd consecutive night I'm having pizza.  It's not that I love eating pizza that much, but more my obsession to get it right.  Am I sick or what??  Anyone else with the same disease?

So after taking Scott's advice on letting the stone temp equilibrate and broiling the top sooner, I got 2 great pies tonight.

The recipe is a modified Patsy's NY recipe.  I scaled down the recipe to make 2-12" pies at ~60% hydration rate, 11gm starter per pie, 1/4 tsp yeast & 1/2 tsp salt per pie.  Dough was mixed in a food processor and finished by hand.  Both went to sleep in the fridge for 3 days.  Initially I was going to let it cold ferment longer but I could tell they were reaching their peak for usability.  Proofed at room temp (72F) for 1 hour and they were ready to use.

Pie #1 Primo glazed stone was on the highest level about 2.5" from broiler.  Oven was preheated for 45m at 500, then broiler turned on for 15m.    Stone was also turned at the 45min point to allow the stone to heat evenly since the broiler pad doesn't cover the entire stone.  Temp checked after 15m of broiling and yielded 920F.   Temp was turned down to 400 to let the stone dissapate some of it's heat while dough was stretched and topped.  Took about 5 mins for me to prepare the pie.  Temp was rechecked and it had dropped to around 740.  Pie was loaded and checked at 1 min 30 sec.  Bottom was beginning to char, so pie was rotated and switched to a cooler stone that was at bottom of oven.  Then place on top rack again (on new cooler stone) and broiler turned on.  Pie was then rotated every 20 seconds x3.   So first pie was cooked for around 2 min 30 s - 3 min.  Turned out great.

Pie #2, Stone was moved to 2nd rack level from top and broiler ran for 5 min or so.  Stone is now 4" from the broiler plate as oppose to 2.5" in the first set up for pie #1.  Stone temp was around 730 and oven turned down to 450 to shut off broiler.  Pie #2 was loaded and allowed to cook for 1 min on the hot stone.  Bottom was checked and crust was brown and starting to spot.  Broiler was turned on and pie was turned every 30 seconds x4 to compensate for the smaller (than the stone) sized broiler plate.  Pie #2 took a total of a little more than 3 min to cook.  I noted that it took the broiler slightly longer to char the top since it was now 4" space inbetween instead of 2.5". Pie #2 was excellent as well.  Had better texture than pie #1.

Pics below is of Pie#1.  Initial stone temp of 740F and baked for under 3 min.
 
You pizza Gurus...please tell me what you think?  how can I improve my dough or set up.  Do these look like pies worthy of eating?  thx

[Jackie Tran]

Pie #2 was loaded with an initial stone temp of 720F and baked for around 3min and 30sec.

[hotsawce]

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted in more.

So let me see if I understand this correctly; the best method was this.

1.Heat stone at 500F, 2nd rack from broiler (about 4 inches), for 45m to 1 hour.
2.Turn on broiler for 15 minutes to blast the top of the stone.
3. Turn oven down to 450F.
4. Load pie, let cook one minute.
5. Turn on broiler to finish cooking.
  Estimated time, 3-4 minutes.

Couple questions regarding this, though. Any reason you are not preheating at 550? and why turn down to 450 and not 500? Finally, have you tried this method on the highest rack?

Finally, and most importantly, does your oven only heat the stone using the top element, or is there a bottom element on that viking? If so, I'd need to change this method, or preheat entirely on broil, because my oven does regular oven temps using only the bottom element I believe.

If you don't mind, could you try seeing if you can preheat the oven and stone using only your broil setting if this is the case?

[Jackie Tran]

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted in more.

So let me see if I understand this correctly; the best method was this.

1.Heat stone at 500F, 2nd rack from broiler (about 4 inches), for 45m to 1 hour.
2.Turn on broiler for 15 minutes to blast the top of the stone.
3. Turn oven down to 450F.
4. Load pie, let cook one minute.
5. Turn on broiler to finish cooking.
  Estimated time, 3-4 minutes.

Couple questions regarding this, though. Any reason you are not preheating at 550? and why turn down to 450 and not 500? Finally, have you tried this method on the highest rack?

Finally, and most importantly, does your oven only heat the stone using the top element, or is there a bottom element on that viking? If so, I'd need to change this method, or preheat entirely on broil, because my oven does regular oven temps using only the bottom element I believe.

If you don't mind, could you try seeing if you can preheat the oven and stone using only your broil setting if this is the case?

HS, I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.   Yeah I'd like to get more feedback on my posts so thanks for indulging me. 

First off, do understand that this set up is still in the experimental stages.  I haven't yet worked out all the kinks as I am still learning my oven.  I posted the technique a little prematurely b/c I was so excited to learn that I could get the temps on the stone much higher than the oven's highest setting of 500F.  Since this post, I have been informed that 2 others have used the broiler to bake successfully (Toby with his Nearlypolitan and Pwaldman as posted by Pete above.

Since the last posting, I have also read up on using a turned over cast iron pan under the broiler for baking pizza.
You'll be also interested to know that if your oven has a cleaning cycle, you can also trick it into going into cleaning cycle mode without clipping/cutting the lock.  Just do a search if you are interested.   I said all this to say that there are lots of different methods to take advantage of the broiler in your oven.

Ok onto your questions.
1.  I have experimented with both heating the oven to 500 and without.  It does work better when I give the oven a full 45m - 1 H preheat.  I turn down to 450 to shut off the broiler on top from firing to allow the stone temps to equilibrate and cool a bit prior to loading the pie.  This also allows the bottom to cook for 30 seconds or so before I turn up the broiler to cook the top.  If I didn't turn down to 450, the broiler would be running at the time I loaded the pie and burn the top too quickly.  When the pie is on the highest rack or 2nd highest rack, the broiler burns the top very quickly.  If you look at my pictures you'll see that just the top of the rim is burnt.  I prefer a more evenly browned top and sides of the rim. 
  Yes i have tried the highest rack and it's too hot.  Stone temps reach 900 and its too close to the broiler so when the broiler kicks on the top burns too quickly.  At the highest rack i can probably burn a pie in about 1 min. 
Cooking at the top with the broiler is quite different from a WFO i n that the heat is not even cycling on and off.  I acutally believe an electrical heating element may provide a more even heat than a gas fired broiler.

I don't know about a bottom element, but i believe my Viking heats only from the top.  At times i do hear the oven on when the top burner is not running, but I don't feel much heat from the bottom.  A pizza stone placed on the bottom doesn't get very hot as verified by my thermo gun. 

I am currently working on some new techniques and will post pics and details if I can get it to work out well.   One problem I have right now is that the top is browning unevenly.  That is too dark on the very top rim and light around the sides.  One way to fix this is to bake on the 3rd level or even 4th but this will extend cooking times and give a bit drier cheese. 

I will try to just heat the oven and stone using only the broiler.  I have traditionally switch back and forth b/t 500 and broiler to keep the top burner going.  I know that after awhile the burner does cycle off if left on the broiler too long (maybe 30min?).  And if set to 500F, once the oven reaches 500, the burner cycles off as well.  Opening the door and letting some heat out and then shutting the door will kick it back on.

The other thing I've tried is a 2 stone approach.  One stone on level 1 and another on level 3 and load the pie in the middle.  The problem I've had with this is that the bottom stone isn't getting hot enough.  I need a bottom stone temp of at least 650.

My next attempt will involve cooking on level 3 with the broiler with a full 45m-1h preheat.  Load the pizza on the stone, and then place a perforated thin pizza pan on level one to deflect a little of the heat.  This will slow down the burning of the top crust and hopefully give me a little more even browning. 

I'll update this if and when I can get a consistently good bake.  I hope that answers your questions.

[Jackie Tran]

HS, here is a pie that I baked in my outdoor Primo ceramic oven tonight.  The crust has a nice golden color to it and is browned evenly.  I would like to achieve this in my home oven in under a 5 min bake.  I can do this indoors in an 8 min bake but that is too long IMO.

Pic 1&2 is the same pie, just different lighting and flash on camera.

[Essen1]

TM,

Your pies look burnt. But they shouldn't be.

High heat doesn't always equate to great pizzas. Especially when you dough contains sugar. If your Viking range can get temps up to 850°F, omit the sugar in your dough formula.

For a lighter crust, use a higher hydration. And no matter what you do, don't try to emulate a Naples-style dough...like the ones Matthew, JConk007 and Andre are making until you have a WFO.

A pizzamaker once told me, tailor your dough recipe to your oven and not the other way around.

[Jackie Tran]

You are right Mike. Good advice and it is noted. That advice about tayloring the pie to the oven comes from someone who intimately knows pizza. I really enjoy insight like that.
  Im still in the experimental and learning stage and really enjoying the process. A few burnt pies can be fustrating at times but it's all part of the process. I'm trying to enjoy the whole process since it won't last forever.
  I know that I won't be able to make a true neopolitan pie in my home oven but I can make a Nearlypolitan pie. Of all the pies I've baked, I have been able to make one that has the look despite not using caputo flour.
  Most of the pies you see up there do not contain sugar, but good to know about it's browing effect.
I've almost got my home oven and recipe working together properly. I hope to have some decent pics up soon.

Thanks again Mike. 

Here are my only Nearlypolitans so far.  I hope to have more soon.