Author Topic: Low vs High Protein flour for Pizza making  (Read 4371 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Low vs High Protein flour for Pizza making
« on: March 16, 2010, 05:05:24 PM »
I'm really confused about this topic so if someone can clear it up for me I'd appreciate it.

I've been reading and it seems like hi gluten flour (14%?) is desireable for pizza making as it gives a chewier crust. 

But then again, I hear that some are using Caputo 00 flour and isn't that a low protein flour?  So what is better high or low?

Are true neopolitan pies low protein caputo flour and american NY style high protein flour?

I've been using bread flour and even AP flour (I know, shame huh?) for pizzas with good results.  Should I really look into a higher protein flour to take my pies to the next level?

 ???
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 05:38:11 PM by Tranman »


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Low vs High Protein flour for Pizza making
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2010, 05:18:04 PM »
Neapolitan pies are made with 00 flours that are especially milled and blended for high-temp ovens.

Great pizza can be made with just about any flour. It depends on what kind of crust you are trying to make. Changing flour will change the crust; it will not necessarily take your pizza the "the next level". What don't you like about your current crust that you would like to improve? 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Low vs High Protein flour for Pizza making
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 05:37:47 PM »
oh there's really nothing I don't like about my currrent crust,  I was just wondering if I was missing out on something is all?

I see that a lot of members are using KASL and other Hi protein flours while I thought I read that some purist will only use Caputo 00 and I thought I read somewhere that Caputo is a low protein flour.

What affect does lowering the protein content have on the end crust?  Does the finer milling help it absorb more or less water?

So which is better low or high protein flours?  Ok so I understand that they give different results.  Can someone tell me what kind of crust each gives?

Thanks.  I'm asking more to expand my pizza knowledge is all. 

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Low vs High Protein flour for Pizza making
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2010, 05:48:52 PM »
Caputo is lower than KASL and All Trumps but I don't think its that low of a protein, isn't it around 12.7%-13%. Its just the way that Caputo is milled that makes it different than the american flours. There is a post on here that says what the protein % is but I can't seem to find it, Peter probably knows which one it is though.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Low vs High Protein flour for Pizza making
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2010, 05:56:32 PM »
For those who have tried the caputo 00 flours?  Does it make a better pie? or just a different pie?  In otherwords, I'm wondering how many converts there are out there after trying the caputo flour?

Also can you use the same recipe for a NY neopolitan pizza and just replace the flour with caputo 00, or do you need to change up the recipe entirely?


Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Low vs High Protein flour for Pizza making
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2010, 06:10:20 PM »
I use 50/50 KASL/Caputo Pizzeria. Before when I was just using KASL at 63% hydration the dough was easy to control. Now that I use 50/50 with the same hydration I find that it is little more wet. I use the same exact recipe but now KASL 50%/Caputo 50% Pizzeria. It browns a little less but I get a bit more of a tender crust.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Low vs High Protein flour for Pizza making
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2010, 06:37:28 PM »
Tran,

Even staying within the boundaries of the NY style, there is a fairly large range of flours that can be used, from all-purpose flour to high-gluten flour. I discussed some of the historical evolution of the flours for the NY style at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7527.msg64720.html#msg64720. I would say that, today, high-gluten flour is perhaps the most common flour used by NY pizza operators who specialize in the New York style. But there are still NYC pizza operators still using all-purpose and bread flours for that style.

The use of 00 flours is not a matter of purism. It is also not a matter of high-protein flours being better than lower protein flours. If one wants to make an authentic Neapolitan pizza, the way to do it is to use a 00 flour and a very high temperature oven. That's it. 00 flours are made of grains that differ in protein content than those available in the U.S. Because of the protein/gluten make-up of the grains used to mill 00 flours, their rated absorption values will be lower than for the flours milled from U.S. grains, despite the finer grind of the 00 flours. You can see the different specs for a couple of the Caputo flours (Pizzeria and rosso) at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25328.html#msg25328. You can compare those specs with the KASL flour in the same post. For specs on other King Arthur flours, see http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html.

I have discussed some of the differences in using all-purpose flour, bread flour and high-gluten flour in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1994.msg17592/topicseen.html#msg17592 and also at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8654.msg74968/topicseen.html#msg74968.

In my experience and observations on the forum, and I have worked with many many members who wanted to make Neapolitan style pizzas using 00 doughs with their standard unmodified home ovens, most such members tended not to become converts. They might find ways of combining 00 flours and U.S. flours, usually high-gluten flours, but they eventually tend to lose interest is using only 00 flours. As I have mentioned before, the forum is littered with the bodies of members who have tried to make credible Neapolitan style pizzas in their home ovens. Bill/SFNM even commented on the smell at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9568.msg83003/topicseen.html#msg83003  :-D. My advice is not to try to relate the 00 flours with the other flours. Except for 00 blends with other flours as mentioned above, I would keep the 00 flours separate in your thinking and use.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 06:55:41 PM by Pete-zza »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Low vs High Protein flour for Pizza making
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2010, 06:54:31 PM »
Also can you use the same recipe for a NY neopolitan pizza and just replace the flour with caputo 00, or do you need to change up the recipe entirely?


Tran,

There have been a few instances in the past where a member has inquired as to substitution of a 00 flour for the flour used in the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. See, for example, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5215.msg44203.html#msg44203. However, I don't recall specific results. Maybe you can try the Lehmann dough recipe with 00 flour rather than bread flour or high-protein flour.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Low vs High Protein flour for Pizza making
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2010, 09:29:50 PM »
Peter, thank you for the info.  I now have a better idea of the differences in the flours, their history, and what to expect when using the different flours.  I'm in NM and I don't think I can find Caputo around here.  I may have to order it online if I really want to try it out. 

What is the minimum oven temp require to cook a true neopolitan pie?  Would 800F suffice? or  does it really require 900-1000+.  I'm not quite sure myself what temps they are cooking their pies at in Naples.

One experiment that I would like to do is to compare a NY style pie made with AP flour versus a blended/process AP flour.  What I mean by that is I'd like to run some AP flour through the blender to try to get the flour into a finer state.  I'm not sure if that is possible or if I would just be aerating the flour.

Either way, I'd like to see if I can make a decent pie with this lower protein flour.  The AP flour I'm using has a protein content of 10%.  Since it's lower protein content, I'll adjust the water ration to achieve a hydration of 57% as suggested in one of your post.  I'm also going to be scaling down the recipes to make 8" personal sized pies as I want to eat these pies in one meal and not have leftovers. 

If there is no difference in the pies, at least I'll know if I like AP flour pies vs my usual BF pies.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 12:11:56 AM by Tranman »

Offline Puzzolento

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Re: Low vs High Protein flour for Pizza making
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2010, 11:36:58 PM »
You can make great NY-style pizza at 550 degrees in a regular home oven. I do it a lot. The crust tends to be lighter and crunchier than high-gluten crust, although it tears easily when tossed if not oiled.

Whether it's authentic is not a question that interests me. Others may have opinions.


Offline Matthew

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Re: Low vs High Protein flour for Pizza making
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2010, 07:02:11 AM »
I don't use my WFO in the winter time & have done alot of experimenting with Caputo Pizzeria in my indoor oven.  I don't use Caputo for NY style pizza but do in fact use it for all pizza's made in teglia including focaccia, sfincione, romana, & Sicilian.  When I make focaccia, I use 100% Caputo Pizzeria; with Sfincione I do a 30/70 blend of Caputo Pizzeria & Semola remacinatta; with pizza romana I do 80/20 Caputo Pizzeria & Semola remacinatta & add VWG to strengthen it; & with Sicilian I do 90/10 semola remacinatta & Caputo Pizzeria.  I have also done pizza in teglia with the same formula that I use for making my Neapolitan dough (100% Caputo pizzeria) with very good results.  I also use either strutto (lard) or EVOO as well as malto (barley malt) in all the above formulas which helps with browning while adding a nice flavor to the dough.


Matt