Author Topic: pizzeria in australia  (Read 10146 times)

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Offline yori

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pizzeria in australia
« on: March 16, 2005, 04:58:38 PM »
I took over a pizza shop from a guy that had many shops befor who I consider as an expert in the field.
his dough recipe was flour salt sugar water yeast with no firm quantities the general message was don't worry what ever you do it will be ok and honestly i thought it was. we got fantastic feed back specially for the crust.at the time we didn't have a dough mixer bet we had good oven (double deck brick blodgett) our volume in the begining was so low that one dough last us for days. as business got better as I turn kosher we got a mixer now and a pizza dough sheeter I feel like my dough is not so good or I should say consistent so I need to be more firm and consistent with how to do things here
looking into most recipes on the net I feel that it will not work for us cuz of the complexity and most recipes are what seems to me for home use we are open for 12 hours a day so we allways need dough ready to be use and at the same time premaking them so far hasn't work for us cuz it's very hot in the shop and the dough dry out or raise to much please help


Offline OzPizza

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2005, 03:55:14 AM »
I took over a pizza shop from a guy that had many shops befor who I consider as an expert in the field.
his dough recipe was flour salt sugar water yeast with no firm quantities the general message was don't worry what ever you do it will be ok and honestly i thought it was. we got fantastic feed back specially for the crust.at the time we didn't have a dough mixer bet we had good oven (double deck brick blodgett) our volume in the begining was so low that one dough last us for days. as business got better as I turn kosher we got a mixer now and a pizza dough sheeter I feel like my dough is not so good or I should say consistent so I need to be more firm and consistent with how to do things here
looking into most recipes on the net I feel that it will not work for us cuz of the complexity and most recipes are what seems to me for home use we are open for 12 hours a day so we allways need dough ready to be use and at the same time premaking them so far hasn't work for us cuz it's very hot in the shop and the dough dry out or raise to much please help

Adopt some high protein NY dough recipes, like the Lehmann professional one found on this site and do proper refrigerated fermentation of your dough. It's the generic approach that makes Pizza crusts in Australia so boring. Then there's too many trying be arty with their pizzas.

You got exactly the right oven in the Blodgett, that's for sure.

I seriously believe that if an Australian pizzaria learned some of the NY/American techniques they'd clean up. If I had the time and inclination I'd consider a shop myself... In meantime I'll keep being underwhelmed by Oz pizzas and work at making my own perfect NY...

Founder of B.R.N.Y.P.O.Z. - The bring REAL NY pizza to Oz movement!

piroshok

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2005, 07:17:49 AM »
Adopt some high protein NY dough recipes, like the Lehmann professional one found on this site and do proper refrigerated fermentation of your dough. It's the generic approach that makes Pizza crusts in Australia so boring. Then there's too many trying be arty with their pizzas.

You got exactly the right oven in the Blodgett, that's for sure.

I seriously believe that if an Australian pizzaria learned some of the NY/American techniques they'd clean up. If I had the time and inclination I'd consider a shop myself... In meantime I'll keep being underwhelmed by Oz pizzas and work at making my own perfect NY...


recently I have seen a NY pizza shop opening in Fiztroy Street, St Kilda and I am not overly impressed with this style either. It is very hard to judge at the distance and with such different types of flour but one thing you're right refrigeration should the rifght thing to do

Offline OzPizza

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2005, 08:44:48 PM »
recently I have seen a NY pizza shop opening in Fiztroy Street, St Kilda and I am not overly impressed with this style either. It is very hard to judge at the distance and with such different types of flour but one thing you're right refrigeration should the rifght thing to do


Yeah, you have to wonder what their experience with NY pizza would be. It's easy to say, hey let's brand ourselves as NY Pizza, since it sounds catchy, but not make pizzas anything like the real thing. I think flour is probably the weak point in a lot of pizzas in Aust. Too many places just take the generic Pizza Flour option, which is fine if you're trying to make something taste continental, but it's way off the high protein variety needed to recreate a true NYer. Then add to that improper dough fermentation aka same day dough and you get average tasting flavorless crusts ,cooked a dozen ways, that are a dime a dozen here.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2005, 09:51:05 PM »
oz,

You and piroshok are new to the forum, but one of our members, jeancarlo, was scheduled to open a pizza shop a couple of days ago in a small Mexican town south of Guadalajara. I had mentioned trying out a NY style pizza--maybe something along the lines of a Lehmann NY style. He reminded me that high-gluten flours cannot be found in Mexico. I was aware of this from my own personal experience from vacations in Mexico and having scoured the shelves of many food stores, big and small, looking for something other than a general all-purpose flour to make pizzas (the only other choice I saw was whole wheat). But even if more and better flours were available in Mexico, who is to say that the people would like the pizzas made from those flours? Mexicans can become conditioned to their foods as well as we become conditioned to ours. A NY style might go over well with American tourists, but the natives might not care for that style. I suspect from what you say that flour may be the biggest deterrent to making a NY style pizza in Australia, but if flour was not an issue, would the locals go for an authentic NY style pizza?

Peter

Offline OzPizza

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2005, 10:43:58 PM »
oz,

You and piroshok are new to the forum, but one of our members, jeancarlo, was scheduled to open a pizza shop a couple of days ago in a small Mexican town south of Guadalajara. I had mentioned trying out a NY style pizza--maybe something along the lines of a Lehmann NY style. He reminded me that high-gluten flours cannot be found in Mexico. I was aware of this from my own personal experience from vacations in Mexico and having scoured the shelves of many food stores, big and small, looking for something other than a general all-purpose flour to make pizzas (the only other choice I saw was whole wheat). But even if more and better flours were available in Mexico, who is to say that the people would like the pizzas made from those flours? Mexicans can become conditioned to their foods as well as we become conditioned to ours. A NY style might go over well with American tourists, but the natives might not care for that style. I suspect from what you say that flour may be the biggest deterrent to making a NY style pizza in Australia, but if flour was not an issue, would the locals go for an authentic NY style pizza?

Peter

Pete,

I tend to think yes, they would enjoy the added taste of NY pizza here in Australia. We are a very modern multi-cultural society (unlike say Mexico- and we have the flour) and there is a 'hunger' for diverse cuisines. I have had friends of mine who have grown up with the standard offerings here visit the US both with and without me and taste both well made american style pizzas and reasonable NY street styles. They have always come back raving about the taste like it was a real revelation to them. Recently a friend of mine and his wife were in Honolulu of all places and ordered a pizza. His wife never really enjoyed Aust. pizzas, but when she tried this American style, she raved about it saying she'd have one every week if they were this good back home! Honestly, as has happened with many food products here, most people exist in blissful ignorance and accept ordinary versions until they are given a superior version. Then suddenly the benchmark is reset for everyone. This was the case when Krispy Kreme donuts landed here in Aust. a couple of years ago, people went mad for the product (despite only 10 varieties being offered- and still no powder donuts to this day- arrgh!). People at my work were ordering them from 50 miles up the road in Sydney for example. The other thing is Pizza has only been around in Aust. since the 60's and slowly diversifying over that time. If I said hey, let's go and have Italian or California gourmet (BS to me) woodfired Pizza 12 years ago people would have wondered what you were talking about. It wasn't till about '96 that woodfired as a style started to take off in the mass market (I'm not counting italians with their own backyard ovens). I now think it's high time people got a taste of NY, Chicago, and American styles in general here downunder.

 
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piroshok

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2005, 08:51:42 AM »
@OzPizza
I don't really know if pizza started here to be mass produced around the early seventies even if there were outlets before that time you have to see that the neighbourhoods were really immigrants from other countries rather than Australians. I myself from Argentina pizzerias abounded since Italians who are counted by the millions began to migrate there in the late 1880 so when I arrived in Australia yes I did find some pizza outlets but the pizza wasn't very satisfying then things have changed and yes Australians love to taste and experience new things all the time.

As far as high protein flour is concerned no Australia is not a high protein producer so mills have to import and blend . Currently there is Weston Millers sell a 25kg high protein flour to bakers and so on but I don't know how good this flour is since I could not get hold of a sample.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2005, 09:18:45 AM »
Oz and piroshok,

In the U.S. there is a pizza trade publication called PMQ (Pizza Marketing Quarterly) that also has a website (PMQ.com) where professionals (and individuals) can ask pizza-related questions at a forum called Think Tank. I didn't realize until fairly recently that there is an Australian/New Zealand counterpart, at http://www.pmq.com.au/.  Unfortunately, the Au/NZ Think Tank has been down for some time, apparently because of technical problems. But you might find the PMQ Au/NZ site to be helpful in understanding the Australian pizza market and also in identifying and locating the best ingredients available in Australia for making pizzas.

Peter

piroshok

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2005, 06:03:01 PM »
Oz and piroshok,

In the U.S. there is a pizza trade publication called PMQ (Pizza Marketing Quarterly) that also has a website (PMQ.com) where professionals (and individuals) can ask pizza-related questions at a forum called Think Tank. I didn't realize until fairly recently that there is an Australian/New Zealand counterpart, at http://www.pmq.com.au/.  Unfortunately, the Au/NZ Think Tank has been down for some time, apparently because of technical problems. But you might find the PMQ Au/NZ site to be helpful in understanding the Australian pizza market and also in identifying and locating the best ingredients available in Australia for making pizzas.

Peter
Yes Thank you Pete
Quote
http://www.pmq.com.au/index.html

Offline OzPizza

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2005, 09:34:32 PM »
Oz and piroshok,

In the U.S. there is a pizza trade publication called PMQ (Pizza Marketing Quarterly) that also has a website (PMQ.com) where professionals (and individuals) can ask pizza-related questions at a forum called Think Tank. I didn't realize until fairly recently that there is an Australian/New Zealand counterpart, at http://www.pmq.com.au/.  Unfortunately, the Au/NZ Think Tank has been down for some time, apparently because of technical problems. But you might find the PMQ Au/NZ site to be helpful in understanding the Australian pizza market and also in identifying and locating the best ingredients available in Australia for making pizzas.

Peter

Yes, thank Pete, I'm aware of the Australian site. If they had a forum I would really enjoy getting stuck into them about lack of pizza variety here in Oz. Hopefully they get something up and running sometime soon.

Andrew
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Offline OzPizza

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2005, 05:47:36 AM »
To back up what I was saying earlier about Australians appreciating the NY Pizza taste, I just had a text message from the mate who I mentioned in another thread was in NYC this week. After passing on some info from this site, on his own he came up with John's on Bleeker St., which I mentioned to him had received favourable reviews for NY Street pizza style on this site. His excited message back to me following eating there was: I've had the best pizza ever, have photos and family to confirm. Now this guy used to work in a Pizza shop and has tried pizzas all over this country and quite a few places in Europe, a few in other parts of the states. The closest thing I've been able to have him try to NY while with me in L.A. was boring old Sbarro's. Even that he thought was streets ahead of the vast majority of Aussie pies. For me, my friend's experience speaks volumes for what might happen if we could duplicate a pizza, say like John's(which I know many have said here is now where near the best these days) or better.

piroshok, I'm aware through my research that Weston Mill's Pro-Max flour is at least 14%. They are not the only mill in Australia making such high protein flour, Allied Mills actually list 14% Extra Protein Bakers Flour on their website and I'm sure there are others. An excellent article from the archives of the Sydney Morning Herald about the importance of high protein flour in bread making (not just for us NY pizza nuts!), talks about the importance of high protein content in flours for breadmaking as well as listing sources for such flours: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/25/1059084203206.html?from=storyrhs.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2005, 10:18:33 PM by OzPizza »
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piroshok

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2005, 07:40:48 AM »
Thanks OzPizza I have to register to read the article but inspite that I agree with you it is hard to get the right stuff here especially in Melbourne where the paper just gives no info where or who to get them from.
I have tried long while ago to increase the gluten ratio of flour but with no success since I like to use to make empanadas which I have never been able to replicate the right dough cosistency either.
Would you be able to provide me with some brand names perhaps I can ask for some of them here
Thanks
« Last Edit: July 11, 2005, 08:03:00 AM by piroshok »

Offline OzPizza

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2005, 04:26:39 AM »
Hi piroshok, unfortunately, I didn't expect a Sydney-centric article in the Herald to give info relevent to Melbournites. If anything, the author would have had to rewrite the article and do further research in Melbourne to give those details obviously. With that said I have heard back from Australian Flour Mills directly on their 14% Black Label Flour and have been given a grocery wholesaler in China town Sydney CBD to approach re buying that product. So it looks like its only a formality till I have my hands on the correctly specced flour. I have also followed up my email last week with Weston Milling re there Pro-Max flour through another NSW dept of their company. That means I now potentially have 2 sources for the right flour. I would suggest you simply duplicate my efforts with both of these Mills and you will be rewarded with the information on where to buy these flours in Melbourne...

Cheers,

Andrew
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piroshok

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2005, 07:33:10 PM »
Thanks for your info OzzPizza
As far as Weston Milling  Pro-Max flour I believe this particular product is distributed from Melbourne in 25kg bags so it is out of my league for the moment
I have found Laucke's (a South Aussie milller) Wallaby brand 5kg bag (Coles) in the range of 12% protein level so they claim as I was on the phone with them. http://www.laucke.com.au/

Offline OzPizza

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2005, 10:44:53 PM »
Thanks for your info OzzPizza
As far as Weston Milling  Pro-Max flour I believe this particular product is distributed from Melbourne in 25kg bags so it is out of my league for the moment
I have found Laucke's (a South Aussie milller) Wallaby brand 5kg bag (Coles) in the range of 12% protein level so they claim as I was on the phone with them. http://www.laucke.com.au/


I came across Laucke website myself, but left them down the list as Weston and AFM are bigger producers. The 12% Laucke isn't even as strong as Molini-Pizzuti bread flour, available from many delis ,which is 12.5%  I wouldn't waste time buying a 25kg bag of Pro-Max either as it would be waste. Also, I have not had any confirmation of the protein content yet for Pro-Max or their Special White Flour (Which comes in something like a 10kg or less). My thoughts are to go with the AFM black label bonafide 14% flour available in the 5kg,10kg, etc sizes and be done with it. Soon as I get a chance to go to Sydney, I'll be buying some from the place in Chinatown.
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piroshok

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2005, 11:38:59 PM »
Great info there OzzPizza
Unfortunately AFM does not appear to sell 5 or 10kg bags anymore so they told me nor they have a distibuitor here in Melbourne. AFM is willing to ships bags to Melbourne fairly cheap but the freight cost may be high
As far as Westons Special flour don't waste your time protein is even lower than Laucke's around 10% according to the label I got it here at home though the dough ws quite stiff when I used it so it is rather confusing info finding a label that tel you one thing and the bench test another.
If you find a AFM 5kg bags I'll be interested in getting one from you or your sources if possible? thanks



   
« Last Edit: July 12, 2005, 11:40:58 PM by piroshok »

Offline OzPizza

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2005, 04:02:47 AM »
Ok thanks piroshok, I'll investigate the bag sizing of the AFM Black Label. I didn't think the special flour would cut it but I didn't want to leave any stone unturned just in case. Obviously the 25kg Pro-Max is the only flour they make in the high protein range then. That's a real suprise and disappointment about a large company like AFM not having distribution for the 14% product in Melbourne. There are some other producers out there, perhaps you can find the Melbourne equilevent of the supplier I found in Sydney,Torino Food Suppliers, who carries a large range of baking and pizza making products- that's if you have no joy with the costs of AFM flour from Sydney.
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piroshok

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2005, 08:20:03 AM »
OzPizza
I have found some sources of supply in Melbourne and one of them is closer to home. The guy stocks 13.5% protein with high ash content of 0.55 which is very close to AFM Black label of 14% he calls it pasta dura four suitable for the Italian bread of that type, he added that the more you work the dough the tougher it gets so I though it may be absorb lot more water than other types of flour. I certainly like to make bread it should be great and for that purpose I'll buy it anyway
What are your thoughts regarding pizza suitabiliity?


Offline OzPizza

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2005, 08:54:09 PM »
OzPizza
I have found some sources of supply in Melbourne and one of them is closer to home. The guy stocks 13.5% protein with high ash content of 0.55 which is very close to AFM Black label of 14% he calls it pasta dura four suitable for the Italian bread of that type, he added that the more you work the dough the tougher it gets so I though it may be absorb lot more water than other types of flour. I certainly like to make bread it should be great and for that purpose I'll buy it anyway
What are your thoughts regarding pizza suitabiliity?



Sounds pretty close to the mark at 13.5%. For what it's worth, if you can't find the 14%, then I'd give it shot.

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piroshok

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Re: pizzeria in australia
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2005, 12:50:13 AM »
Allied's Pro Rich flour is within the range of 13 to 14.5% as I was told no flour holds true for a fix figure.
Normally a blend by the millers and quality tends to vary from batch to batch so protein is an allowable range not a fixed number .

Funny, Weston's special flour has an absortion rate of 63.5 and a protein range level 9.2 to 10% according to their feedback however the dough appears to be tough so they have me lost on protein levels.
Quote
BRAND:              SPECIAL WHITE      
            
DESCRIPTION:               Select stream flour       
            
MILLER:                    WESTON MILLING (VICTORIA)      
             
ANALYSIS:          SPECIFICATION      
               
PROTEIN                     9.2 - 11.0      
MOISTURE                 12.5 - 14.0      
LIGHTNESS INDEX              82.5 MIN  (L-b)      
EXTENSOGRAPH STRETCH      16.0 MIN(%)      
EXTENSOGRAPH HEIGHT       320 - 490 (BU)      
FARINOGRAPH ABS.          63.5 Min(%)      
« Last Edit: July 18, 2005, 01:34:45 AM by piroshok »


 

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