Never been more excited to get Pimples!

[Jackie Tran]

I don't know why but I love pimples on pizza.  Ever since I saw pictures of Gluten Boy's Pies, I have been hoping to achieve Pimple status, Pimpledom, or how about PIMP status!  Yes I like that best,  we'll just call it "Pimping your Pie"

Here's tonight's "Pimped" Pie.
Hydration rate is 70% made with cool water and autolysed at room temp for 1 hour,  No rest period after kneading, & cold fermented for 4 days, proofed at room temp covered for 7 hours, baked at around 700F in home oven for about 4 minutes total. 

I have read some of the theories on the why's and how's pizzas get "pimped".  All I can say is that i tend to get a pimpled pie with longer cold ferments, but I have also gotten a pimped pie on day 2.  My theory is that pimples appear when the dough is near exhaustion.  Meaning it probably has more to do with how much yeast is in the dough AND how long it's been feeding not just the # of days it's been cold fermented.

[Jackie Tran]

A few more pics.

[Glutenboy]

Prettiest pimples I ever saw!  Beautiful pie! 

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks GB!  I'm learning from the forum giants like yourself and slowly gettin there.  Do you get pimples
on all of your cold fermented pies or is it hit and miss?

[lesagemike]

I must admit Tranman that I like pizza from the oven better than the Primo Oval. So far that's one of few things in the last 3 years I have had my OvalXL that I prefer the oven cook. My pies still don't look that good but I am learning.

[Jackie Tran]

I must admit Tranman that I like pizza from the oven better than the Primo Oval. So far that's one of few things in the last 3 years I have had my OvalXL that I prefer the oven cook. My pies still don't look that good but I am learning.

Mike it won't take long if you keep detail notes and keep searching the forums.  I"m not there yet btw, I still have a lot of work to do and things I'd like to try out.  Can you tell me why you like pizza from the oven better?   Is it b/c you have better control of the temps?  having trouble getting high enough temps in the Primo?

I may be able to help.  Once you get a few details iron out, you should be able to make awesome pies from the Primo as well as the oven.  All things equal, I find that pizza on the Primo has a WFO taste to it where as I don't get that in the home oven BUT it's not a BIG difference for me. 

Lesagemike, are you on the Primogrillforum.com as well? 

[lesagemike]

Tranman,

As much as I love the smoke flavor in brisket,butts,veggies,fruits, and meats in general I haven't yet acquired the smoked Pizza taste yet. I don't hate it I just don't prefer it.  I spend a lot more time on the Primo forum and check it every day. I post a little but I lurk a lot! I like to cook my oven pizza on a round piece of lodge cast iron made for pizza. Just need more practice but I am sure eventually I will get it. As a pharmacist in "real life" I enjoy the chemistry and math challenge in cooking pizza also.  I am Lesagemike on the other forum also to answer your question.

[LaPizzaBrutta]

Excellent looking pizza! Love the 'pimples'!

I find most can get good micro-bubbling with longer cold fermentations with a high heat oven. But like you, I've seen it occur in 2 days fermentations as well. Here's a couple from a few weeks back that really made the grade.

[Pete-zza]

But like you, I've seen it occur in 2 days fermentations as well.

Would you mind posting the dough recipe you used to get the blisters after only two days, and the general method you used to make and manage the dough?

Thanks.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

LPB, that is a nice looking pie.  I am a fan of yours as well. 

LesageMike.  I too do not like a smokey pizza.  When I do pizza in the Primo, I burn just lump and NO smoking woods.  I like the taste of the lump pizza.  Like yourself, I too enjoy the chemistry of Pizza.  I'm a Nurse Anesthetist by day, pie maker by night.    So far anesthesia is easier for me than making pizzas. 

Pete, the pie I was referring to was actually a one day (overnight) dough, but it was not a NY style pizza.  It was (so far) my first any only pizza hut pan pizza clone.  If I recall correctly, that recipe does call for quite a bit of yeast.  I'll have to go check out the recipe again.  Pictures are not that good, but they are there.  I also use the recipe that is posted on the recipe section.

[LaPizzaBrutta]

Would you mind posting the dough recipe you used to get the blisters after only two days, and the general method you used to make and manage the dough?

Thanks.

Peter

Peter, I use the same method and recipe as posted in my thread at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10192.0.html
Admittedly, I believe I use a lot more yeast than most.

As you can see from the pics, my Margherita was a 2 day fermentation and the ham and cheese one was a 3 day (3 day has more bubbling). It coincides with what Tranman has stated. It seems the longer the fermentation the more bubbling you get, until the dough becomes completely exhausted, which at the 10 day point, it's lost almost all of it's residual sugars.

EDIT: I've also has some interesting results when I pull the dough out 2 hours ahead of time, fall asleep, and accidentally leave it out for 5-6 hours ; )

[Jackie Tran]

LPB, funny you alluded to interesting results with varying proofing times. I recently made 2 pies after they were cold fermented for 4 days.  One was rushed and warmed proofed (not purposefully) for an hour and a half. The other doughball (from the same recipe) was proofed at room temps for 7 hours prior to baking the following day and the results couldn't be more different.
  The first pie had a very neopolitan texture and look to it with less rise while the 2nd pie had a very NY look and texture to it.  I'm planning on intentionally redoing this proofing experiment to see if I can replicate the results. 
  Do you guys have any ideas on why this is?

[Pete-zza]

Peter, I use the same method and recipe as posted in my thread at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10192.0.html
Admittedly, I believe I use a lot more yeast than most.

LaPizzaBrutta,

I have always been intrigued by the subject of bubbling and blistering, which prompted my question to you. In fact, there is an entire thread devoted to that subject, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7740.0.html. If one reads far enough in that thread, they will see that even Tom Lehmann has a difficult time explaining blistering.

In your case, I did wonder whether you loaded up on yeast in order to speed up the fermentation process. However, 0.35% IDY is not a lot of yeast for a two-day cold fermentation. Maybe the two-hour up-front bulk fermentation at room temperature sped up the process, especially if the dough had a high finished dough temperature. Or possibly your oven setup was a factor in the blistering.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

The first pie had a very neopolitan texture and look to it with less rise while the 2nd pie had a very NY look and texture to it.  I'm planning on intentionally redoing this proofing experiment to see if I can replicate the results. 
  Do you guys have any ideas on why this is?

Tran,

I think it depends on the condition of the dough at the time you decide to use it. If the physical structure of the dough is intact, with a good balance between gas production and gas retention, then that might be the optimum condition. But if the gluten structure of the dough has been degraded by enzymes because of excessive fermentation, or the water in the dough has been released from its bond, making the dough wet or slack, then the finished results will be negatively impacted. If the dough is underfermented at the time you decide to use it, then that will also usually result in sub-par results, typically because of an improper balance between gas production and gas retention. You can read further on the concept of balance between gas production and gas retention at the "Fermentation Control" section of http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm. As you might imagine, different dough formulations will have different optimum times of usage.

Peter

[norma427]

Tranman,

Your pie with the bubbles looks great.    Looks like you really pimped your pie! 

The subject of pimples interests me, also.  I haven’t been making pizza that long and have been trying to figure out what might cause the pimples.  I have never gotten them at home in my oven, even if I use the same dough I used at market, but then I usually use the dough after a short warm-up.  The times I can remember getting the pimples is when my dough was either cold fermenting for a long while or if my dough was frozen and then unfrozen and left for a longer period to warm-up.  If I took the unfrozen dough and let it only warm-up for a short while, I never got pimples.  Just last week I did get some pimples or small blisters on some unfrozen dough.  This dough was left out to warm-up for three hours. 

I don’t really have a theory about what is happening, but just keep watching.

Wish someone could figure this out,

Norma

[jcamador]

There's a good discussion of blistering here, although for sourdough bread...http://www.sourdough.com/forum/topic/9

still translates so might be helpful...

[Jackie Tran]

Pete, thank you for the links.  I will read through them this week while the dough is fermenting.

Tranman,

Your pie with the bubbles looks great.    Looks like you really pimped your pie! 

The subject of pimples interests me, also.  I haven’t been making pizza that long and have been trying to figure out what might cause the pimples.  I have never gotten them at home in my oven, even if I use the same dough I used at market, but then I usually use the dough after a short warm-up.  The times I can remember getting the pimples is when my dough was either cold fermenting for a long while or if my dough was frozen and then unfrozen and left for a longer period to warm-up.   If I took the unfrozen dough and let it only warm-up for a short while, I never got pimples.  Just last week I did get some pimples or small blisters on some unfrozen dough.  This dough was left out to warm-up for three hours. 

I don’t really have a theory about what is happening, but just keep watching.

Wish someone could figure this out,

Norma

Norma,  Thanks for the compliment.  It's really satisfying to a noob such as myself to get a compliment from the likes of yourself, GB, LPB, etc. 

I think you have answered your own question there.  I made a couple more pies tonight and again, pimped both pies!  Both were cold fermented for 4 days and both had a nice long room temp proofing (6hours).  I'm convinced that both of these factors relative to the amount of yeast I used (0.4% ADY or 12% Starter per 290gm doughball) leads to the near exhaustion of the dough resulting in blisters.  At least if I am wrong, this recipe reliably produces acne.   

I will be testing this theory next week to see if I am on the right track or not.  I will make 2 pies from the same batch and cold ferment for 4-5 days.  I will then proof one doughball for 2 hours versus a 6-8 hour proof for the other.  Hopefully we will see a difference. 

Here are a few of tonight's pimped pies for your enjoyment.

[norma427]

Tranman,

I find your recent experiment interesting in the pies you made today.  They look great!  I enjoyed seeing your pies tonight. It will be interesting to see if you can produce this pimples again with two different times in proofing your dough.  Will anxiously await your results. Seeing your pies tonight makes me wonder more what causes these blisters.  I see your pies made today are lighter in crust color.  The pie I made this past Tuesday that had blisters was also lighter in color, even though I baked it as long as the other pies.

I am still wondering if I answered my own question.  The only two doughs that I got any pimples with were an experiment with the Lehmann dough with a long ferment and with the recent poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  The one dough was cold-fermented for awhile and the other was the frozen dough that was left out too long.  I will have to let a dough ball out longer that is unfrozen and see if I get some pimples.

I am fairly new to making pizza.  It has only been one year that I am trying to see what kind of results can be achieved.  I also still have so much to learn. 

Thanks,

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Norma, I encourage you to lengthen the time of your proofing to see if blisters appear.  I bet they do.  I usually don't proof for more than 6-7 hours though.  It really depends on how much yeast is in the dough.  I guess some doughs won't tolerate a 6hour+ proof.  I also usually only allow the doughballs to proof that long if they look like they are handling it ok.  If they start to look like they are getting tired or show any signs of deflation, I'll start the oven. 

I looked back at the 2 recipes for the first pie in this thread and the recent one to compare and try to find the difference for the darker color.  Though they are 2 different recipes, they are rather similar.  The difference being that the first pie contained a small amount of sugar 1.2% per 290gm dough (or 1/2 tsp).  That could account for the browning. 

I've also been known to use a mixture of a variety of locally available flours (some bleached and others unbleached) and that may account for some of the color differences.  My recent tests involve a 50/50 blend of AP&BF.

To make matters even more confusing, I also frequently test varying oven/rack setups to try and optimize my pizza bake.  This too can account for more or less crust coloration.

As I am slowly improving, hopefully I can cut down on the number of variables and better pinpoint the source of different outcomes. 
I hope to have more pimped pies this coming week. 

[norma427]

Tranman,

Your experimenting is interesting.  You are right about maybe the sugar or flours helping to brown the crust.  In addition testing varying oven/rack setups could also change the results of your crust color.

I usually don’t change more than one variable at a time to see what results can be achieved.  I have two frozen dough balls from last week and will take your advise and try a longer proof time to see if there will be any pimples.  I also made one Glutenboy dough last Friday and mixed it by hand to see what the results would be in the market oven.  I have always wanted to try his formula.  I will also see if there are any pimples on that pie.  I don’t want to let it proof for too long, because I would like to see a starting point for his formula and then maybe a longer fermentation time.

My dough formulas are different than yours.  I have never tried to make a 70% hydration dough, except for a foccacia or Sicilian type.  Your high temperature in your oven can also make a difference.  I usually use KASL for most of my NY style pies.

I will be waiting to see your results in your experimenting, 

Norma