Never been more excited to get Pimples!

[norma427]

Tranman,

My results with the pimples today were inconclusive.    I made my first dough this morning and it had pimples.  The second and third pizzas also had pimples. This is unusual for my pizzas with my poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough. During the rest of the day today, I didn’t get any pimples or blisters.  I even left the dough I had frozen out for 6 hours on the bench after it had unfrozen and that didn’t even get the pimples.  That dough was slack and hard to open, but it turned out okay.  I tried Glutenboys formula that I had made Friday and that didn’t get pimples either.  These pimples still have me puzzled. 

Maybe you or someone else will have better luck or skill in figuring out what causes pimples,

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Norma beautiful looking pies and pimples!  So it sounds like you got pimples on some pies and not others.  Were the pies that you got pimples on from the same batch/recipe or different batches/recipes?
I'm curious to know the cold ferment times on the pies that got pimples versus the pies that didn't.

Well I made a couple of doughballs on Sunday and baked them tonight (2 days cold fermented).  I wanted to rest them longer, but b/c of the high starter % (20%) the balls had doubled in volume in 2 days so I wanted to bake them at their peak.

Pic 1 were the 2 balls after a day of cold fermentation.
Pic 2 are the balls after their room temp proof.  The ball in the black plate was proofed at room temps for 6 hours and the other 2 hours.   Finishing temps at the end of proof were 73F for the black plate (6hours) and 70F for the other (2 hours proof). I wanted to see if proofing time made a difference in blister formation.

[Jackie Tran]

Okay here are the results. 

First pie was the 2 hour proof.  So 2 days cold fermented and 2 hour proof.

2nd Pie, was proofed for 6 hours. 

Conclusions:  Both pies had a small amount of pimples but I had to look for them.  They both had a similar amount of blistering.  I was hoping and expecting the 6 hour dough to have more but it really didn't.  So apparently proofing times may or may not have an effect on blistering.  I say maybe, b/c I'm still convince that blistering is due to the dough nearing exhaustion.  So if the dough is near exhaustion, then proof times would have a bigger effect.  If not, then it won't have an effect.  I feel though that had I let the 2 go for another day or 2, then I would have gotten more or bigger pimples.

My next test will be 2 doughballs, one proofed for 2 days and the other for 4+ to see if there is a difference.

First pie (pic 1 & 2) was proofed 2 hours.  Topped with shrimp and oysters.

2nd Pie (pic 3 & 4) was proofed 6 hours.

[norma427]

Tranman,

Thanks for saying the pies look good and also the pimples.  You are right about me getting some pies with pimples and some with no pimples.  All the pies with pimples were from the same dough, with the same cold ferment times.  I used the one batch of dough which was a 15 lb. batch of dough for the pies. Same oven temperature and same time in the oven.  Some had pimples and some didn’t.  That is why I said this still has me puzzled.    I will keep watching to see what happens from week to week.

Great to see your results.  Your pies look great!    Hope your experiments will tell what happens to make pimples.

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Tranman,

Thanks for saying the pies look good and also the pimples.  You are right about me getting some pies with pimples and some with no pimples.  All the pies with pimples were from the same dough, with the same cold ferment times.  I used the one batch of dough which was a 15 lb. batch of dough for the pies. Same oven temperature and same time in the oven.  Some had pimples and some didn’t.  That is why I said this still has me puzzled.    I will keep watching to see what happens from week to week.

Great to see your results.  Your pies look great!    Hope your experiments will tell what happens to make pimples.

Norma

Thanks for the clarification.  That is so very strange!  To get pimples on some pies and not others from the same batch.  Was the pimpling vs non pimpling pies drastically different in the amount or size of pimples or was the difference a slight difference?

[norma427]

Thanks for the clarification.  That is so very strange!  To get pimples on some pies and not others from the same batch.  Was the pimpling vs non pimpling pies drastically different in the amount or size of pimples or was the difference a slight difference?

Tranman,

Only a few of the pies I made today had any pimples.  These were the ones that I posted with pictures.  I have been trying to figure this out for a long while and never make any progress.  I bake pies all day long on Tuesdays from 8:30 in the morning until around 7:00 in the evening.  Some weeks I get some pimples and some weeks no pimples at all. 

I know this is strange and I think many people have been trying to figure this out. 

Will wait to see more of your results,

Norma

[NY pizzastriver]

Maybe the two-hour up-front bulk fermentation at room temperature sped up the process, especially if the dough had a high finished dough temperature. Or possibly your oven setup was a factor in the blistering.

Peter's proposed perception of perfectly placed pimples protruding a pizzas perimeter is perhaps something to ponder. All in all I find the longer it ferments and or rises before baking tends to create them, I love 'em too, and those are some snazzy pimples on a fine looking pizza.

[Ronzo]

pimples are beautiful!

[Jackie Tran]

Whoops, I also forgot to mention that I believe the high heat has something to do with creating pimples as well.  Even though my 2 latest pies only had a small amount of pimpling, I did note that the edge that was touching the hot stone and the crust underneath definitely had larger pimples.  Unfortunately I didn't take a picture, but will see if I can get one next time. 

[Glutenboy]

Peter's position on the non-pubescent pimple problem is patently perplexing and perhaps prohibitive.  Patience may possibly provide perspective.  But seriously, folks, my own experience has been that the older the dough gets in the fridge, the more pimples I see.  Not a guarantee, but decidedly a trend.  A lot of chemistry seems to happen during that extended refrigeration.

[LaPizzaBrutta]

Thinking about this and the experiments done in this thread...there's a ton of variables. I would take a guess that the room temp during proofing would also be a big factor. I can say that when I'm proofing my dough balls, it is in a pretty hot kitchen (small area and an oven blazing at 650 for at least an hour can get toasty!). Condensation from drastic temp change perhaps? I don't know.

This is an interesting subject.

[MikeH]

I had a bit of pimpling on my most recent attempt and while I'm a bit of a pizza making noob, I get the feeling it mostly boils down to the dough being supple and elastic enough for even the smallest air pockets to expand and push out the dough while cooking and with enough moisture content to do so before the outer layer hardens.   My dough this time (a 2 day version of Glutenboy's recipe) was very soft and elastic, with large air bubbles that reminded me of bubble gum.

Since you had some pimpling with some but not others from the same batch and the cooking temperature was the same, could the dough have been warmer or dryer by the time you got it in the oven?  I can't think of anything else that may have been different.

[Jackie Tran]

I had a bit of pimpling on my most recent attempt and while I'm a bit of a pizza making noob, I get the feeling it mostly boils down to the dough being supple and elastic enough for even the smallest air pockets to expand and push out the dough while cooking and with enough moisture content to do so before the outer layer hardens.   My dough this time (a 2 day version of Glutenboy's recipe) was very soft and elastic, with large air bubbles that reminded me of bubble gum.

Since you had some pimpling with some but not others from the same batch and the cooking temperature was the same, could the dough have been warmer or dryer by the time you got it in the oven?  I can't think of anything else that may have been different.

I agree Mike.  I believe it to be the condition of the dough prior to baking that causes the blistering.  I believe it has something to do with how close to exhaution a dough is prior to baking.  This is relative to the amount of yeast that's in the dough.   It seems that older doughs that have been fermented longer seem to reliably produce pimples.  But keep in mind most doughs that are made to cold ferment for 4 days and beyond have less yeast in it as well.   
  We've also seen it happen  with 1-2 day doughs, but again I think the higher yeast % leads to ripening of the dough faster.   This still doesn't explain why some pies from one batch will blister while others don't.  Do you have any pictures to share?

[Jackie Tran]

So my latest experiment with pimped pies is to test cold fermentation times.   I made a batch of dough and divided it in 2.  Baked one pie 24 hours later and the other will be done in 3-4 days if it makes it that long.

This was also an experiment with a high starter (preferment) %.   I normally use about 5% for a 3-4 day cold rest.  This pie had 35% of the total flour weight in starter.   Bulk rised for 4 hours, and then cold fermented for 20hours.   I was not expecting pimples but I actually got some.  Not as big and as much as say a classic GB pie, but there none the less.   

a 24 hour pie with pimples.  I believe this is due to the high starter %.  I hope to get bigger and more drastic pimpling with his older twin in 3-4 days time. 

[Jackie Tran]

Ok 4 days time is up.  Here is his twin brother.  He has been sleeping for 4 days.  Same recipe as the guy above.   I was really expecting to see a lot more pimpling.  He has some and maybe a bit more than his younger brother, but not drastically more.   At 35% starter (~3/4 tsp ADY?) and a 4 day cold ferment should have given more pimpling than I got.  What I got was a semi flat crust and moderate pimpling.  A little disappointing.

BTW, oven setup was a little different for this guy and not as hot so maybe just maybe there would have been more or bigger pimples had the oven setup and temps been the exact same...I don't know.

So in conclusion, I'm not sure it's the long cold fermentation alone that causes pimpling.  It may add to the effect, but at this point I'm at a lost for a good explaination.  I guess the blistering shall remain a mystery.   

[norma427]

Tranman

It’s good to hear you are experimenting on what might cause the pimples or blisters.  I think this has been a good topic of discussion for a long while.  Even people like Tom Lehmann and other members of this forum have tried to study what can cause these pimples or blisters.  People that have so much experience in making pizza dough don't have all the answers, although they haven’t really studied extensively how this can happen. 

In my case, I have watched the different doughs, time left fermenting, cold fermenting, time on the bench, temperature of cold ferment, warm-up bench time, bake temperatures, over fermented dough, frozen dough, flour used on the bench, and other ideas.  I haven’t been able to replicate any blisters consistently.  IMO, I think you would need so many constants to be able to figure this out, like a controlled environment, dough testing equipment, and a desire to keep all testing on one formula until all experiments are exhausted. 

What I  am trying to understand, so far is how dough contains many air cells created during fermentation or proofing, and then these air cells are separated by cell walls.  When the dough hits the oven or stone, the cells expand creating oven spring. Then the starch in the cell wall absorbs moisture and makes the gluten lose moisture.  Maybe then lessening of moisture creates small holes forming in the cell walls.  I have peeled back many crusts while eating a slice of pizza and can see where the steam has vented if the dough has been properly made and proofed.  Higher moisture doughs seem to have more holes. I don’t know if when the steam can’t form in the cells walls the right way, if then more problems occur or if this or other conditions might form the pimples. Maybe I am not right on this, but am trying to understand. Some people can get pimples or blisters on a more consistent basis.

I have watched how one dough can poof up like a balloon if just left to bake with no topping. Watching this from a low hydration dough to a higher hydration dough, with yeast, without yeast, and different oven temperatures and they all seem to poof in the center, without toppings.  I don’t understand why, but they do. Those doughs don’t get much oven spring on the rim. It seems to just poof up in the middle.

I will keep watching, but don’t think there will be any consistent progress from myself.

Best of luck to you in trying to figure this out, 

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks for the attention and interest in this thread Norma.   At the start of it I knew that the reasons for blistering had not been discovered.  I really didn't think I could figure it out but was hoping that I could get a piece of the puzzle straighten out.   I decided to experiement with the few variables that I thought were responsible but at last to no avail.   
  I have gotten pimples after a 24h cold ferment all the way to a 5 day cold ferment.  I have gotten pimples using ADY, my own starter, and a combination of the 2.   I have gotten blisters using home made dough and I have gotten blisters using restaurant bought doughs that I let cold ferment for 5 days.  I have gotten blisters using AP flour and BF as well.  I have gotten blisters eating green eggs and ham..  JK  These blisters have driven me mad!!

[norma427]

  I have gotten blisters eating green eggs and ham..  JK  These blisters have driven me mad!!

Tranman,

LOL, don't let these pimples get to you. 

I have always had an interest in these blisters or pimples, also.  Like I said before I just keep watching and don't think I will ever figure this out either.  I had some pimples on my regular dough today.  Like before it wasn't on all of them. 

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Tranman,

LOL, don't let these pimples get to you. 

I have always had an interest in these blisters or pimples, also.  Like I said before I just keep watching and don't think I will ever figure this out either.  I had some pimples on my regular dough today.  Like before it wasn't on all of them. 

Norma

Well I baked some pies last night in my outdoor ceramic cooker.  The heat source is lump coal and burns hot from the bottom.  The heat tends to ride up the rightside giving an uneven browning of the crust so I have to rotate the pie often.  I did notice that the side that had more browning also had bigger pimples.  So the heat definitely has something to do with pimpling.   I also notice that the bottoms of my pies have more pimpling as well along with the oily crust of the Sicillian pie.

My next experiment will involve painting 1/2 a pie crust with oil prior to baking to see if there is a difference.

Here's a couple of shots of the same pie.  Notice the difference in browning and pimpling.  LOL, I just notice I got a few warts along with pimples on the first pic.

[sear]

plenty puzzling pizza pimple production problems present