Author Topic: Need help modifying the Lehmann Dough Recipe  (Read 1107 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AJ72

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 52
Need help modifying the Lehmann Dough Recipe
« on: April 12, 2010, 02:18:36 AM »
Hi Guys,
I made 8 pies of NY Style pizza tonight.  I've been noticing the last several times that the Lehmann Dough seems dry and a little difficult to hand stretch.  It seems that it is not as pliable and elastic as my local shop's doughs and seems like it wants to tear when hand stretching.  I noticed that my two favorite local shops have doughs that are really shiny and wet looking compared to mine and when they hand stretch the dough it looks like the dough wants to keep stretching with no signs of wanting to tear.  I love the finished product of my Lehmann dough in both texture and taste but I was wondering if there is any way to make it more stretchable and easier to work with before it goes into the oven.  What makes my local pizzeria's doughs that shiny and wet looking?  The dough balls even look wet after they drop them in the bowl of flour.  Mine looks dry by comparison but tastes great after it comes out of the oven.  I am using the Lehmann recipe with 62% water, .20% IDY, 1% oil, no sugar, and a 3 day cold ferment.

Thanks,
Tony
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 02:33:50 AM by AJ72 »


Offline mike1952

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: Need help modifying the Lehmann Dough Recipe
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2010, 10:34:25 PM »
I am also having the same issues with the Lehmann recipe--- exactly as you described in detail. Does anyone have a solution to the dry and not-easy-to-stretch dough. When I downloaded the recipe from the American Institute of Baking, I noticed the recipe does not include sugar, but in the mixing portion of the recipe, it mentions adding salt AND sugar twice. help

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21728
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Need help modifying the Lehmann Dough Recipe
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2010, 11:05:37 PM »
Tony,

Without knowing what dough recipes your local pizzerias are using and how they make and manage their dough it is hard to comment. However, if you are using a basic home mixer to make the dough it is highly unlikely that your dough will be as robust and of equal quality to the dough made in the commercial mixers that the locals use. There are only a few home mixers that I am aware of that can come close to a commercially made dough.

I note that you did not mention using any salt. I assume that the omission was an oversight.

Without knowing more about how you have been making and managing your dough, I can't say why your dough is dry and hard to shape and stretch. There could be several reasons. You didn't mention what type or brand of flour you have been using, but there could be a hydration problem. If the flour is not fresh or you operate in a very dry environment, those factors can affect the hydration of the final dough to the point where it ends up dryer than normal. Without knowing whether you made the dough for 8 pizzas all at once, and with what type of machine and at which speeds and durations, it might also be a kneading issue. Both underkneading and overkneading can lead to shaping and stretching problems. If you re-worked, re-kneaded or re-balled the dough balls at the time of use, that can also lead to overelasticity and other problems. You will have to provide more detail to enable us to better identify possible problem areas.

Peter

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21728
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Need help modifying the Lehmann Dough Recipe
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2010, 11:17:31 PM »
When I downloaded the recipe from the American Institute of Baking, I noticed the recipe does not include sugar, but in the mixing portion of the recipe, it mentions adding salt AND sugar twice. help


mike1952,

I don't recall seeing the AIB Lehmann NY style dough recipe but I have seen the one at the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/. Sugar is also mentioned in the instructions for the PMQ version of the recipe but not in the list of ingredients. That is an oversight that has been mentioned several times over the past few years at the PMQ Think Tank but neither Tom Lehmann or PMQ has taken steps to correct the recipe or instructions. However, Tom's usual advice on sugar is to use a small amount if the cold fermentation is to exceed a couple of days or so.

Peter

« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 08:58:03 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline mike1952

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: Need help modifying the Lehmann Dough Recipe
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2010, 11:23:57 PM »
Thank you peter, mike.

Offline AJ72

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 52
Re: Need help modifying the Lehmann Dough Recipe
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2010, 11:20:08 PM »
Hi Peter,
I am using fresh All Trumps Bromated flour and 1.75% salt.  I am also hand kneading the dough and then dividing into 8 individual balls before going into the refrigerator.  I coat each ball with classic olive oil and place each one in a plastic bread bag before going into the fridge for 3 days.  The flavor and quality of the final dough is perfect but I would like to get the dough easier to stretch thin without wanting to tear.  What would make the dough more elastic?  Would increasing the oil to 2% help or even adding 1% sugar help?  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Tony

Offline tcarlisle

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 66
Re: Need help modifying the Lehmann Dough Recipe
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2010, 03:11:07 AM »
Your recipe has 62% hydration. I prefer a little higher. Try bumping it up a few points. The recipe I work with right now is 66% hydration. It almost stretches and shapes itself. I couldn't tear it if I wanted to. I used to work with a much drier recipe and the results are what you describe -- hard to stretch because it tears and/or just rebounds back. 

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21728
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Need help modifying the Lehmann Dough Recipe
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2010, 09:50:26 AM »
Tony,

If you are using All Trumps, the rated absorption for that flour is around 63%. So, you should be able to increase the hydration a few percent without a problem. As tcarlysle noted, that should result in increased extensibility. However, some members have reported, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10622.msg94384.html#msg94384, that they have found the AT flour to produce a stickier dough than other high-gluten flours. Consequently, you may need to fine tune the amount of water to use with that flour.

There are several ways a dough can become overly elastic. It can happen if the dough is underkneaded or overkneaded. It can happen if the dough is underhydrated. It can happen if the dough is underfermented, or it is worked while cold or if it is re-worked, re-kneaded or re-balled shortly before using to form skins. Adding more oil, e.g., up to 3% for a NY style dough, will improve extensibility (reduce elasticity). Adding sugar will not have a similar effect.

What you might want to try before making changes to your dough formulation is to make a smaller batch of dough than the eight dough ball batch you have been making. It is possible that hand kneading such a large batch using All Trumps is not producing a sufficiently hydrated dough with optimum gluten development, which is a factor in determining the ultimate extensibility or elasticity of the dough. Whether you heed this recommendation or not, you might also sift the flour and use an autolyse or similar rest period. Doughs using high-gluten flour are harder to hand knead than doughs made with weaker flours, so when I have hand kneaded high-gluten doughs my practice has been to use a combination of sifted flour (to improve hydration), high hydration, and an autolyse or similar rest period. In my case, I was making only single dough balls of around 20-30 ounces or so. It would be considerably harder to hand knead an 8 dough ball batch. Making a single dough ball should help rule out hand kneading issues if you get the desired degree of extensibility.

Peter

Offline AJ72

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 52
Re: Need help modifying the Lehmann Dough Recipe
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2010, 11:18:26 AM »
Thanks Peter and tcarlisle,
I will try all of those tips including increasing the oil to 3%.  I've read that the Reinhart NY Dough uses 6% olive oil and read how easy it is to work with.  I might try a cross between Lehmann and Reinhart and see if I get where I like.

Thanks,
Tony


 

pizzapan